Fixed-wing or Rotary career? (incl Changing licence to Rotary)

[Bravo73]

Clintonb,

I'm going to try and help out Whirlygig here because you don't seem to be listening to what she is actually saying. Either that or you are still slightly confused about the situation.

Do you have a US passport? Yes/No. If no, you CANNOT work legally in the USA.
Do you have a Green Card? Yes/No. If no, you CANNOT work legally in the USA.
Do you have a US WORK Visa? Yes/No. (Remember, this is not the same as a Visa Waiver, a Tourist Visa or a Student Visa). If no, you CANNOT work legally in the USA.

From what you have already told us, it doesn't sound like you have any of the above. Therefore, this means that you DO NOT have the 'right to work' in the USA.


I hope that this is clearer for you.

[Whirlygig]

Thanks Mon Brave ... :)

Clintonb, I'll try again ....

but I've been told that to do your helicopter license it is cheaper to do your training in fixed wing and get the hours and then convert over to helicopter which will minimize your hours needed to do in helicopter and you leave with 2 types of license.You keep telling us what you've been told but please listen to the responses here. It is NOT necessarily cheaper to do both, it will NOT necessairily make you more employable.

You are just as unlikely to get a job with 400 rotary hours as you would be with 250 rotary and 300 fixed wing hours for roughly the same cost.


just know doing your helicopter is a lot more cheaper in the states than in south africa try doing your helicopter license all the way up to CPL in south africa for no less than R750 000 = $109 000 and thats not even including housing or food or books.I've flown in South Africa and compared with Europe, it is cheap. As I said, you have the right to live and work in SA and therefore a South African licence would be cheaper than a European (JAA/EASA) one as Europe is the only other area where you have the right to live and work.

You could try the Green Card lottery if you have another skill/qualification.

Cheers

Whirls

[Clintonb]

Hey Bravo73

i brought it up with the USCIS as im looking into application form EB-5 Alien Entrepreneurs to start up a business with a friend who is US Citizen. so talking to the USCIS they state that I'm eligible for a work visa unless i have a criminal record which i don't have. But they state if i do want to work in the US first I'd have to find the job in the US in order to apply for a work visa i cant apply without a written confirmation from the employer that they would like to employ me.

In any country you go to you need to have confirmation that they have a position for you to work in their company. no one is stuck in their own country and not allowed to work in any other part of the country unless as you stated you are a citizen or eligible for to have a work visa.

Only thing that can stop me from having a work visa is if i have a criminal record, so people dont drink and drive because that will restrict you from getting a work visa in any country and takes a longer process.

[Bravo73]

But they state if i do want to work in the US first I'd have to find the job in the US in order to apply for a work visa i cant apply without a written confirmation from the employer that they would like to employ me.

Hypothetically, yes, they are correct. But, in practice, this is not going to happen. Unless you are particularly special or have a particularly unique skillset (NB being a helicopter pilot is NOT one of them), then a US company is not going to offer you a job unless you already have a 'right to work' in the USA.

[Whirlygig]

In any country you go to you need to have confirmation that they have a position for you to work in their company. Indeed. Therein lies the rub. :rolleyes:

Cheers

Whirls

[Epiphany]

10/10 for perseverance Whirls. Some people have to go through the process and learn for themselves before the 'eureka' moment strikes.

[Whirlygig]

Must be my motherly instincts ;)

Cheers

Whirls

[Thomas coupling]

Whirls: two things:
(a) I think what clintonb is saying is that he has "special needs"..........

(b) congratulations on becoming a mother....aaaah :D

[Pandalet]

To put this in a slightly different way, in the hopes of penetrating:

You can work in any country you like, IF you can get a work permit. Getting a work permit usually (certainly in most Western countries) requires an employer to certify that they want to employ you and sponsoring your work permit (they also usually have to show that they can't find anyone locally suited to do the job). Given that baby helicopter pilots are not a scarce commodity anywhere, you simply aren't worth the extra hassle of sponsoring through a work permit when an employer could get the same basic product ready-to-go in a local baby pilot.

Work permits issued to foreigners are generally very restrictive, and tied to a particular job for a particular employer. If you leave said employer, your work permit expires and you either need to find another employer who is willing to sponsor you, or bugger off home. So although you may be able to get a work permit as an entrepeneur, I rather suspect you'll find said permit doesn't allow you to do random freelance work for helicopter operators.

Additionally, if you wish to fly commercially in JAA-land, you need to have at least a JAA validation of your foreign license. Showing up to a job interview to fly (say) G-reg helicopters commercially with an FAA (or SA) license will get you laughed at. In all that investigating you're doing, look into what exactly is required to convert to JAA from elsewhere.

...and if you think there aren't any wrong answers, try just leaping in and spending a bunch of cash on whatever seems like it might work, with whichever school takes your fancy. Although the right/wrong answers are subjective (i.e. they depend on you and what you want to acheive), there are plenty of wrong ways to get where you want to be.

[CharlieFly]

I don't know if anyone will know the answer to this but:

If you hold a fixed wing ATPL and want to convert it to a heli or for that matter add a heli to their license, what do you have to do? Can this be done without having to go back to the beginning of training?

Cheers

[Josh Campbell]

I know I am opening a can of worms here, but it's back to the hour building on a fixed wing to build up hours thing. I was informed by a very experienced FI that I could do my FAA PPL(A), convert it to a PPL(H) FAA and then build hours towards my CPL (H) on the American licence on a fixed wing aircraft. I could then convert that to the JAR licence (as I live in the UK) The big advantage of this, apart from having a dual licence, is that it should save me a lot of money hour building, as fixed wing are obviously cheaper. I know everyone is saying Heli is more expensive and all that, but I am 18, and every penny I can save helps.
My question is, one, is it even possible? And two, is it in anyway an advantage or am I better just getting stuck into the Heli training on the JAR?

Cheers,

Josh.

[HillerBee]

To fly helicopters professionally you need helicopter hours, you will not get a job with say 800 fixed-wing hours and 200 helicopter hours. You will be treated as a 200 hour guy. You just have to take the standard route.

[Josh Campbell]

Thanks for your swift reply. Another quick question, is it easier to convert from the Euro licence to the American or vice versa? Everyone I ask seems to have a different answer.

Cheers,

Josh.

[HillerBee]

JAA --> FAA = easy
FAA --> JAA = very hard

[baobab72]

hello everyone
i am new to this section, i hold a jaa and an faa fixed wing atpl, although i have been always fascinated by helicopters. I would like to know how many hours it would normally take a fixed wing pilot to solo in a helicopter. If that is the right time to discontinue the training for a while and if based on your experience, what kind of maneuvers i could expect to accomplish is in , let's say, 10 hrs - takeoff, landing, hovering-?

Many thanks

baobab

[Stuck_in_an_ATR]

I am not an instructor, but I was in the same position as you, ie. fairly high-time (~5000 hrs) FW pilot when I started helicopter lessons :) Took me some 8 hours of dual instruction to solo and these hours were spread over a period of approx. 9 months (not good, I know, ). Maneuvers covered during this time were:

- general handling
- hovering and hover maneuvers (ie. pedal turns, moving sideways, backawrds etc.)
- pickups/touchdowns
- accelerating and decelerating through ETL (quickstops, sort of)
- pattern work
- autorotations
- some off airport landings (but that was more of a bonus, rather than a requirement :})

Surprisingly, I have found hovering easier then expected - generally was able to maintain positive control of the helicopter from the very beginning (though for first 2 hours or so, it required a lot of concentration on my part and resulted in some sore muscles afterwards :}).

The harder part for me was to overcome some of the airplane habits, which have been deeply ingrained in me over the years and tended to kick-in especially in the later parts of approach and landing, eg.:

- getting used to higher flare heights (required to maintain tail rotor clearance)
- learning to push on the cyclic at the end of the flare (a big NO in an airplane)
- learning to maintain correct approach path/sight picture. Initially I tended to make my approaches like in an airplane, ie. aiming well below the intended touchdown point, keeping speed far into the approach and then having to perform a mighty flare to stop where I wanted to :)

However, all in all it was a blast and a great experience - so go for it if you can! :ok:

[Jet Ranger]

From CPL(A) to CPL(H) costs and training?
Hello

Im a ATPL(Frozen) UK JAA airplane licence holder.

A friend of mine runs a helicopter company and needs a pilot and since Im struggling to find work on aircraft I'm considering getting the CPL helicopter.

Can anyone advise me of what I need to do to get this licence please.

Many thanks in advance

Ps: Please dont reply with stuff like you need lots of money etc i know everything is expensive (Im a cpl holder)

Evth. is written in JAR FCL 2. :)



JR

[Bravo73]

...and in LASORS.


Like I said already. Or are you just going to delete this thread as well? :rolleyes:

[paco]

If you have ATPL(A) theoretical knowledge all you need is POF(H) on the theoretical knowledge side. A flight school should be able to confirm the rest.

Phil

[Jet Ranger]

I think you need 100 h on helicopter ( maybe now is less sth), in JAR FTO.

[Helinut]

matalice,

Someone with a bare CPL(H) would normally have no chance of getting work, particularly in the current market. Most onshore flying will be done single pilot: for offshore an IR is essential.

Assuming your friend has an onshore operating company, you are presumably looking at single pilot flying. With a bare CPL(H) and a limited number of P1 hours you don't have much experience. As I say, normally you would not stand much chance at all of getting any work. Even if your friend favours you, there could certainly be problems with getting insurance. I suggest you check this before you spend money getting a helicopter licence. Although it is not fixed, companies often are looking for around 1,000 hrs for someone to take command of a commercial flight.

Perhaps even more significant than that, you need to appreciate that helicopters are different from aircraft: not just in how they fly, but how they are used. Broadly speaking (because they are more expensive) they will only get used when an aeroplane will not do the job. Helicopters are enormously flexible and an experienced pilot can do marvellous things with one. There is much more judgment needed to fly helicopters than aeroplanes. For example, helicopters are used to fly into private sites. These are places which are not controlled, don't have a licence and not been checked to the same extent as airports. No fire crew; no ATC. The pilot has to make the decision whether or not to use such a site and how to use it, with relatively limited help from anyone else.

You will need to gather training, experience and skill once you have your licence to become a satisfactory helicopter pilot. I hope your friend is prepared to spend the significant sums of money needed to help you do that.

[HillerBee]

There are plenty of experienced helicopter pilots around, so your friend doesn't have look for long, just an ad on PPrune and he'll be sorted in a day. BTW good fixed wing pilot doesn't make a good helicopter pilot.

[GoodGrief]

Anyway turns out I only need to do 70 hours an POF(H) and a job awaits me

May be I am off, but my JAR FCL 2, para 2.155(b) says a CPL requires 185 hours in helicopters of which 50 can be credited from a CPL(A).

[Camp Freddie]

GG i think you are right, LASORS D4.2(C) page 23 says the same thing although it says it in a different way

105 hours (including 50 hour credit for CPL(A)) +
30 hours for modular course
-------
135 Total

also in my experience flight schools are terrible at giving good advice as to this sort of thing, check out the source docs yourself

[MartinCh]

Shall we presume that your friend will give you job after you spend money at HIS school?

Minimum regulatory rules are one thing, handling skills/proficiency another, insurance etc yet another.

So far I've seen sound and well-meant advice from professionals, so your latest response wasn't really needed.

[Kelly Hopper]

Your research is wrong Matalice. I have an ATPL (A) with thousands of hours and a PPL(H) and I can assure you that you need a minimum of 135 hours heli including a 30 hour CPL course. This is the MINIMUMS.
If your "friend" needs a pilot now why would he look at you just starting training and months/years away from licence issue?
OR....In the USA you can get a CPL(H) with as little as 50ish hours I believe, with fixed wing hours. Try getting employed though!

[Camp Freddie]

Matalice,

I did some helpful research in a friendly manner and looking at source documents came up with a figure of 135 hours

please can you tell me where the 70 hours figure came from and how it has been calculated?

kind regards

[212man]

I'm guessing the 70 hours comes from a supeficial look at the requirements for upgrading a PPL(H) - which can be done in 40 hours + 5 hours in an FNPT - with the 30 hours CPL(H) modular course.

However, that calculation misses the additional experience required of the PPL(H) holder which, for a CPL(A) holder is 105 hours in helicopters - so we are back to our 135 hours! Fancy that:ugh::ugh:

[Helinut]

We have all tried to help matalice, but I am sure he really knows best.....

[Bravo73]

Ah, rats. Matalice seems to have flounced out of the room (again) and taken all of his posts with him. :E

Was he starting to get shirty with the big boys when they didn't give him the answer that he thought they should?

[Whirlygig]

Mon Brave ... more like trolling to elicit certains reactions :oh:

Cheers

Whirls

[mikelimapapa]

Reminds me of a former student, young guy from Alaska, who upon completion of his PPL had a look through the school's 141 syllabus. After seeing the course hours of 115, he was convinced that was the total time for a CPL. (what he failed to comprehend was 35 for ppl + 115 for cpl = the required 150 hrs.) No amount of explanation, including the requirements in the FARs would help. Not even a call to our friendly FAA inspector would change his mind. So he decides we are trying to rip him off, and heads down to Boatpix of all places. :ugh:

So I run into him about a year later during a fuel stop, and I don't even say hello. The first words out of my mouth, " I was right, wasn't I?" His eyes went straight to the ground, shoulders slouched and he sheepishly replied, " Yea, you were right." And we proceeded to have a normal conversation after that. :ok:

[Clintonb]

Hi everyone.

I have a few questions that i hope you can help answer for me. im thinking of doing my Commercial helicopter add on. i got a commercial fixed wing with IR and been looking into some schools in the US as i hold a FAA license and still cant figure out whether you need to take the instrument add on or not.

some schools when i look at the break down of the commercial add on course it already has 5hrs instrument dual put in the course but then i speak to other schools they say no you need an instrument add on if you want to fly in IMC..

So do i need to also take the instrument add or are they trying to sell me another course that i don't need.???

another thing from what i understand and have heard from speaking to helicopter pilots not in the states but in other parts of the world is that an instrument rating in the rotary world wont do you any good for now unless you flying twin engine helicopters as you not permitted to fly single engine helos in IMC..

thanks very much for your time and look forward to seeing what you guys have to say.

safe flying

[Peter PanPan]

Needing or not an Instrument Helicopter rating is obviously up to you, you most definitely need one though to fly under IFR in that category and class as an Instrument Airplane rating won't be legal. It takes you 15 hours of dual Instrument instruction in a helicopter for your add-on rating, provided you already meet the other aeronautical experience requirements such as 50 hours x-country PIC. The reality of helicopter flying outside of the US is a bit different, but there's no such thing as a Helicopter Multi-Engine Instrument rating in the FAA system and you can still fly overseas using your FAA certificate so I wouldn't worry too much about the other guys are saying. Hope this helps!

[OffshoreHeli-Mgr]

You would need to do a helicopter Instrument add-on for the FAA. Budget for 25 hrs of training. Also a Comm add may take longer than the minimums.

Do you really need an IR(H)? R22, S300c, R44 and most B206 cannot fly in real IFR.

If you really are not going to do IFR in a heli a better use of the money woud be to get a CFI rating.

For the JAA, getting a multi-engine heli type rating and doing an FAA IR(H) to the JAA IR(H) conversion at minimum time woudl use uo $50,000 USD.

[rick1128]

You do not need the instrument rating, however you will have to do the 5 hours of instrument training. It is part of the Part 61 requirement. This 5 hours is oriented toward helicopter instrument flight. The helicopter instrument add-on is 15 hours and that 5 hours counts toward your instrument add-on. Some parts of the world do require a helicopter instrument rating, like the North Sea. Plus some contracts require the pilots to be instrument rated even though they are flying a contract that is a VFR only contract, like seismic.

[Agaricus bisporus]

I love the concept of "I got (sic) a commercial f/w" and want to do a helicopter "add on".

Well, let's just tack it on as an afterthought to yer plank licence, shall we? OK then, no probs.

Done!

Sheesh!

[outofwhack]

It is an "add on" if you already have flying experience to add it on to.

I have issue with those helicopter pilots/schools that think fixed wing experience doesn't count. That is snobbery!

Flying experience never subtracts. Time in the air in different weather conditions and types of aircraft and number of landings is a better measure than simply hours.

OOW heli cpl/glider/balloon/fixed wing CPL

[Clintonb]

Thanks for your advice guys really appreciate it.
been emailing schools and just weeding out the ones that are trying to sell me courses and more hours for no reason.
Just another thing has anyone gone to palm beach helicopters in florida and has any information on them or has any information on other helicopter training places in south florida that they recommend?
thanks again for the all your help.
HAPPY 4TH JULY

[paco]

You will be exempt some exams for the PPL(H), and probably between 5-10 hours on the flying. However, you could bridge straight to CPL(H) with the Performance, POF, Ops and AGK professional exams. PM me for details.

Then do the flying.

Phil

[clear to land]

Wow-I am amazed that a thread I started 12 years ago is still running. FWIW I stuck with the planks (stability and financial security), have gone long haul (after short haul) and am a TRI on the B777. I still look up every time I see a helicopter, and once a year get my 'fix' in a 22 or a 47. I don't regret the decision, but am planning to leave my current job at 50 (6 years) and go back to RW to finish my career using my hands and feet again. Figure I will have 10-15 years of good fun helo flying, and won't have a mortgage to worry about (If the plan works :) )

[GVskips]

Can anyone tell me what the requirement is to convert my EASA CPL/IR(A) into a CPL(H) or ATPL(H). Thanks

[paco]

Aside from the flying - for the CPL(H), take the POF, Perf, Ops and AGK exams. You should be exempt the IR. For the ATP, probably take all 14 exams but you'd best get a ruling from the CAA on that one as the rules seem to change every day. The CPL(H)/IR combination is no longer equivalent to the ATPL(H)

phil

[Curtis E Carr]

From Subpart K to Appendix III to Part-FCL, and in addition to Paco's post:

GENERAL

1. The aim of the CPL(H) modular course is to train PPL(H) holders to the level of proficiency necessary for the issue of a CPL(H).

2. Before commencing a CPL(H) modular course an applicant shall be the holder of a PPL(H) issued in accordance with Annex 1 to the Chicago Convention.

3. Before commencing the flight training the applicant shall:

(a) have completed 155 hours flight time as a pilot in helicopters, including 50 hours as PIC of which 10 hours shall be cross-country;

(b) have complied with FCL.725 and FCL.720.H if a multi-engine helicopter is to be used on the skill test.


4. An applicant wishing to undertake a modular CPL(H) course shall complete all the flight instructional stages in one continuous course of training as arranged by an ATO. The theoretical knowledge instruction may be given at an ATO that conducts theoretical knowledge instruction only.

5. The course shall comprise:

(a) theoretical knowledge instruction to CPL(H) knowledge level; and

(b) visual and instrument flying training.

THEORETICAL KNOWLEDGE

6. An approved CPL(H) theoretical knowledge course shall comprise at least 250 hours of instruction.

THEORETICAL KNOWLEDGE EXAMINATION

7. An applicant shall demonstrate a level of knowledge appropriate to the privileges granted to the holder of a CPL(H).

8. Applicants without an IR shall be given at least 30 hours dual flight instruction, of which:

(a) 20 hours visual instruction, which may include 5 hours in a helicopter FFS or FTD 2,3 or FNPT II, III; and

(b) 10 hours instrument instruction, which may include 5 hours in at least a helicopter FTD 1 or FNPT I or aeroplane
9. Applicants holding a valid IR(H) shall be fully credited towards the dual instrument instruction time. Applicants holding a valid IR(A) shall complete at least 5 hours of the dual instrument instruction time in a helicopter.

10. Applicants without a night rating helicopter shall be given additionally at least 5 hours night flight instruction comprising 3 hours of dual instruction including at least 1 hour of cross-country navigation and 5 solo night circuits. Each circuit shall include a take-off and a landing.

EXPERIENCE

11. The applicant for a CPL(H) shall have completed at least 185 hours flight time, including 50 hours as PIC, of which 10 hours of cross-country flight as PIC, including a VFR cross-country flight of at least 185 km (100 NM), in the course of which full stop landings at two aerodromes different from the aerodrome of departure shall be made.

Hours as pilot-in-command of other categories of aircraft may count towards the 185 hours flight time, in the following cases:

(a) 20 hours in aeroplanes, if the applicant holds a PPL(A); or

(b) 50 hours in aeroplanes, if the applicant holds a CPL(A); or

(c) 10 hours in TMGs or sailplanes; or

(d) 20 hours in airships, if the applicant holds a PPL(As); or

(e) 50 hours in airships, if the applicant holds a CPL(As).

SKILL TEST

12. Upon completion of the related flying training and relevant experience, the applicant shall take the CPL(H) skill test.

[Boikal]

Hi guys ,does anyone know of any helicopter sponsorship or companies that train helicopter pilots for contracts with them later.Am almost done with my ppl(H) and i want to continue with my cpl(H) but the training is quite expensive .any ideas please???

[DonQuixote23]

:rolleyes: If you manage to find someone who will pay for your training then make sure you keep it to yourself. There are probably a thousand others who would want the same. ;)

The only thing I've heard of lately is Bristow who plan on offering 4 ppl a fully paid CPL(H) training with start next summer. Search this forum and you'll find the thread.

Else do like the rest of us, go to your bank and beg for money and then pay the lot yourself :(

EDIT: Bristow thing is only for UK citizens.

[Boikal]

Hi rotor heads ,am new in this industry an really want to excel...am almost done with my ppl (h) and I want to finish my cpl (h) but the training is becoming expensive.IS there any other alternative apart from joining the army for me to excel am become a rotor man ?please anyone ..thank you

[African Eagle]

Out of interest what is wrong the military?

In Kenya you have the Army and Air Force and Police Air Wing offering flight training.

[Boikal]

I will have to work for them for around 10 years so that they can release me..that will be too long ,and especially now that the Kenya military and Kenya aviation helicopter industry is not that good ,with many accidents and trouble following them ..

[Boikal]

I have searched the school but its only for american and European citizens...:ugh:...I will continue search maybe i will find one,,

[fly911]

To the airline pilots in the audience I have a question that is not intended to offend but just answer a curiosity. For every 10,000 hours logged (including Captain or First Officer), how many hours involved hand flying the aircraft. Thank you.

[GS-Alpha]

That's a difficult question to give a general answer to. It will very much depend on average sector length, average weather encountered, average airspace congestion etc.. On shorter sectors, you might never put the autopilot in.

From personal experience though, as a 737 pilot at Gatwick, and still very keen on manual flying, I'm guessing about 1/7th of logged hours were manually flown so about 1400 per 10,000. As a 747 FO out of Heathrow, with an average flight requiring three pilots, 2/3rd of the flight time is logged, but each FO only really gets to manually fly every other flight. Under such circumstances, I guess I average 1/100th of logged hours, so approximately 100 per 10,000. As a Captain in my company, it is basically double that, as Captains have negligible heavy sectors. In my opinion, the maintenance of manual handling ability within long haul flying is a huge skill in itself.

These are only rough estimates. It may be that I am either underestimating or overestimating how much manual flying I tend to do, but I'd say it's in about the right ballpark.

[David Aames]

Hello,

As an avid fan of real flying, and finding myself a bus driver I am researching converting my JAR atpl A to a CPL H as I have for many years dreamed of flying a helicopter.

I have read previous posts about conversion but many are dated and I wondered of I could trouble you for your opinion, on a fixed wing jet driver converting to hopefully work off shore with a view to go into SAR one day, as is the dream?

I don't here many stories of fixed wing going to rotary, so it would be great to here from someone who has done it.

My first fixed wing job was low level and I loved it, any help, stories or tips very much appreciated.

Regards,

David.

[paco]

A lot depends on age and whether they want to invest in you - if I'm not mistaken, 42 is the top age for that, but don't quote me.

Otherwise, not a problem, but if you're heading for the N Sea, you really need to study for the ATPL(H), which means five exams. PM me for the fine details.

phil

[jarb]

Hi All,

Quick question, does having fixed wing and operational experience on fixed wing have any effect on job locations with Bristow after completion of training with them?

I part own and operate Vans in Kenya within the tourism sector but looking at helo's for the challenge. 4000hrs+ and Op's Director.

Rgds

[SextanteUK]

Hi everyone,


I've been reading about the reserves in different parts of the world, and it says here in North Sea there are reserves for 30-40 years. Do you know if that's the case? any link with information related would be appreciated.

I live in the US right now, and I'm considering getting my FAA CPL/IR/CFI, and eventually EASA CPL/IR. And honestly I've travelling for too long at this point, I just want some stability, and YESSS I know aviation, both rotary and fixed wing have nothing to do with stability haha. But I could see myself flying a couple of years here in the US, and then moving back to UK, Ireland, Norway or Holland. I'm also a CPL fixed wing.
Anyway, I want to be realistic with my expectations. I know this rotary world is smaller than fixed wing world. And being North Sea my goal, the world is even smaller. So when I say realistic I mean, do you think guys it's doable? but doable not like winning the lottery, wich I did once btw lol. Just working hard and being patient, getting the hours and then applaying a few times until someone likes your name and resume.
Money for training won't be a problem, and I'm 32 right now, european passport.
I love the idea of living in those places and doing that for a living, but as I said, I want to be realistic.


Thanks for taking the time to read me!.
Buenos vuelos!!

[ersa]

I wouldn't worry about the north sea running out of oil, they are finding new technology every year to tap oil supplies , they couldn't get previously.

You are in with just as much chance as everyone else.

If you are passionate about working in the north sea .....then apply....you have come thus far all ready

[Bravo73]

I wouldn't worry about the north sea running out of oil, they are finding new technology every year to tap oil supplies , they couldn't get previously.

^^^This^^^

I remember when I was in school 30 years ago that we were told that the NS oil was going to run out in 30 years time. Yet, they are still finding new fields and, like ersa says, they now have technology to recover oil and gas that was previously unreachable. Once the O&G runs out, there are going to be lots of big holes under the sea floor which they are going to want to fill with something ('carbon capture' has already been proposed and tested). Then once everything is finally depleted, they are going to have to decommission the hundreds of rigs out there. Which is going to take a a good few years.

So, personally, I wouldn't worry about North Sea flying ending within the span of our flying careers. The number of aircraft and pilots required is going to change (both up and down, generally in cycles) but there is going to be offshore flying in Europe for some time to come yet.

[SextanteUK]

I see, so one "problem" less when thinking about future haha.

I'm still trying to adapt to the rotary reality and size. For example Delta is hiring like 50 pilots every single month, so you really can see the movement, and how captains get retired, etc.....and that's only one of the majors, then you have the regionals hiring like crazy, etc.....but when you think about helis, in this case you have 3 companies, and it looks, or that's my idea, like really difficult to join any of them. Even if there are less rotary pilots, I can imagine is extremely difficult to land a job. :ugh:

[ersa]

"If" I was in your shoes...I would push for the fixed wing career , you seem established in the US...Not sure if you have your EASA Exams passed yet or your EASA IR...big expense

[SextanteUK]

I have a frozen ATPL, IR included. All EASA exams passed 6-7 years ago.

I know it would be easierto stay here in the US (got a greencard 2 years ago). But the truth is that family matters, parents, sister......and I'm like 2 flights and some 9.000km away from them, wich is too much after 7 years living abroad. Living in Europe means a direct flight 2-3h from home, that's way different.

So since flying is my dream, it's all about airplanes or helicopters, and if it was like here in the US, actually I'd fly both, wich I think is amazing.
Fixed wing T&C in EU are getting worse and worse, and apparently offshore is facing "good times", compared to airlines. I've been reading about rosters in N.Sea, and compared to Easyjet roster for example, they rock. Even if you get less salary, IMO quality of life looks better.

If I go fixed wing, then I'm assuming I'm gonna work for a crappy salary the next 5 years, until they consider me a senior F/O in a shinny jet. With helicopters, I'd still get crappy salaries for a couple of years here in USA as CFI, but next move wouldn't be so bad apparently.

I don't know. It just looks like the whole aviation bussiness is going to hell slowly :ugh::{

2-3 more years here in the US and then I want to move back to Europe, no matter hat country, but with some decent job, or at least a nice perspective for it. Maybe I just don't get it and times have changed, period.

[ersa]

I can see your dilemma , So its your family issue thats tipping the balance.

I would still go for the Fixed wing option, and fly helicopters for fun, you will have the best of both worlds them.


Sometimes "the grass aint greener on the other side"

[SextanteUK]

Yeah it is. If it was only me I would stay in this country, with some crazy different aviation, and with the possibility of flying both things, that's awesome.

That's what some people tell me, that both worlds are "bad" with "good" things here and there, and that I should just go fixed, wich is gonna be way cheaper for me, rather than paying 60k or so for all the heli stuff.

Thanks for you advice! :ok:

[Fareastdriver]

You could always have a look at this.

North Sea oil firm trial rig transfers by boat instead of helicopters - Local / News / Evening Express (http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/local/north-sea-oil-firm-trial-rig-transfers-by-boat-instead-of-helicopters-1.594612)

[SextanteUK]

that would be bad for the rotary world. how long would it take to transport the workers compared to helicopters?

that would affect everyone I guess, workers would have to sacrifice part of his time off due to increased transport time, right? or the oil companies would lose part of this time too.....:ouch:

[Hueyman]

Hi there,

I know Heli operators does not look much, if not at all, regarding the fixed wing experience ... But does it have some kind of " it depends " factors ?

I mean, of course if, as we read earlier this thread, one have 20 000 hrs 747 and want to long line in a Huey the next day, they may have big problems for sure.

But the young dynamic guy having 3 to 4000 hours of bush flying, in countries with mountains, jungles, bad Wx, rough strips and only " hands on " flying... couldn't this help lending a job from a fixed wing career ?

My goal is just to fly them equally, for a living, switching once a decade or something like that.

I'd be VERY interested to hear someone with the same wishes/experiences.

Happy new year everyone, fly safe !

[Camp Freddie]

Stick to fixed wing, make loads of money and fly helicopters for fun with your PPL-H

To get a CPL-H now is madness in my opinion, there are loads of highly experienced IR rated helicopter pilots struggling to get jobs and they have been for the last 2 years.

[rudestuff]

Cap804 should be your guide. I haven't read it specifically for helicopters, but to become an instructor on a PPL generally requires more hours than with a CPL, so I'd aim for that. I believe an IR conversion is 10 hours, but it has to be in a multi engine type, which requires an 8 hour course and 70 hours pic, making it very expensive.

[liftman]

Hi all, I am EASA ATPL fixed, can you suggest any good European school where to take a bridge course to go rotary?

[Max Contingency]

If you are UK based I recommend you see any of the in-house NHS psychiatrists, they should be able to help you and they are free. You will need a referral from your General practitioner but if you explain what it is that you are trying to achieve (Fixed wing to rotary in todays market) I'm sure they will treat you as an urgent case.

[drugsdontwork]

If you are UK based I recommend you see any of the in-house NHS psychiatrists, they should be able to help you and they are free. You will need a referral from your General practitioner but if you explain what it is that you are trying to achieve (Fixed wing to rotary in todays market) I'm sure they will treat you as an urgent case.

I don’t know. It’s been depressed now for so long, with less and less people training, plus the normal ‘wastage’. Plus there are less and less ex military rotary guys and girls. Might be a good time to start to think about it.

[liftman]

ok guys, and apart your opinion any school?

[switch_on_lofty]

How are you planning on doing the training?
Presumably up to cpl level on something cheap then ir on a twin? Most schools that operate small training helis don't do ir.
Good luck with it!
Can I ask how much fw/Heli flying you've done so far and what job you hope to achieve? Comments above reflect complexity of what you are asking based on the limited information you've provided.

[liftman]

ok, I'll be more specific.

EASA ATPL, 2000 TT mostly IR experience in jet and t/p float rated. My first love was helicopter but too expensive at the time.

Flew 3 hours on R22 absolutely loving it.

Plan is:

bridge course theoretical to get ATPL/IR credit.
Basic helicopter for flying part
Twin/Ir conversion, according to EASA I have a lot of credit about that.

Finding a school able to copy with it.

intention is to fly offshore/Executive or HEMS, all as copilot of course, I was told they are fields where my fixed wing experience could be little slightly added value.

Any clue or suggestion accepted.

Regards

[haihio]

liftman,
Do you have an approximate idea of how much money you need to spend for this?
I know plenty of people in Italy that have hours, type ratings, offshore, Hems and a lot of experience but still can't get a job...
I don't want to discourage you, I just want to help you make an informed decision.

My motto is: "If there is a will there is a way!" but it can be very hard and the rewards can be quite low

[liftman]

thanks for reply guys!

Intention is to work world over, not interested in Italy.

[faarn]

I posted this on the wannabes forum but not had any replies so thought it might be better placed here:

I am looking to transition from UK Military to commercial aviation and trying to weigh up many pros and cons of jumping to the civilian world. I am lucky that either FW or RW will cost about the same to achieve so this is not a factor in deciding. My biggest concern is family life. I will be 44 y.o. by the time I leave with 2 kids under 10 y.o. At present I am away a good 3-4 months of the year and that is fine because when I'm back I get almost all my weekends off and am often home late afternoon (I also get lots of leave to cover childcare during the holidays). This means I do get quality family time when I am in the UK.

Having read a few other threads they are pretty slating of work/family balance for FW pilots. They were, however, from quite a few years ago and so I'm not sure if anything has changed since EASA regs came into effect? One option I have seen pop up would be 75% contract. This would be ideal but as a junior F/O would this even be possible?

RW rosters seem better in that you are working a period of weeks on and then the same (ish) off so more likely to get guaranteed weekends regularly. The problem is jobs are not as plentiful and there would be greater risk in transiting. I do have an SH and SAR background (which should open up more RW opportunities).

Any feedback on work/family balance from those who are doing it and the likelihood of part-time jobs for starting out FW pilots would be appreciated.

[havick]

I posted this on the wannabes forum but not had any replies so thought it might be better placed here:

I am looking to transition from UK Military to commercial aviation and trying to weigh up many pros and cons of jumping to the civilian world. I am lucky that either FW or RW will cost about the same to achieve so this is not a factor in deciding. My biggest concern is family life. I will be 44 y.o. by the time I leave with 2 kids under 10 y.o. At present I am away a good 3-4 months of the year and that is fine because when I'm back I get almost all my weekends off and am often home late afternoon (I also get lots of leave to cover childcare during the holidays). This means I do get quality family time when I am in the UK.

Having read a few other threads they are pretty slating of work/family balance for FW pilots. They were, however, from quite a few years ago and so I'm not sure if anything has changed since EASA regs came into effect? One option I have seen pop up would be 75% contract. This would be ideal but as a junior F/O would this even be possible?

RW rosters seem better in that you are working a period of weeks on and then the same (ish) off so more likely to get guaranteed weekends regularly. The problem is jobs are not as plentiful and there would be greater risk in transiting. I do have an SH and SAR background (which should open up more RW opportunities).

Any feedback on work/family balance from those who are doing it and the likelihood of part-time jobs for starting out FW pilots would be appreciated.

What flight experience (hours breakdown) do you currently have?

[Gordy]

I do have an SH and SAR background (which should open up more RW opportunities).

How many thousand hours you have?

You will need many in the US.

[faarn]

Currently have 2300hrs total of which over 1000 PIC and 300 NVG. Have about 700 hrs SAR.

FW only have my elementary flying training.

[Bravo73]

At this point in time, you are more likely to make a career out of FW flying. RW flying (particularly the offshore sector that you seem to be aiming for) is still struggling to recover from a historically long period of low oil & gas prices. For most UK offshore flying, you will also have limited places that you could reasonably live.

[rudestuff]

So how much FW and FW PIC? The reason I ask is that you’re all set if you want to go rotary, but to go FW you’ll need 200 FW hours. You can credit 100 helicopter hours but ONLY you have an EASA CPL(H) - so you might find you end up getting both like me. Either way, you’ll need 70 hours FW PIC to get a multi crew type rating.

[faarn]

At this point in time, you are more likely to make a career out of FW flying. RW flying (particularly the offshore sector that you seem to be aiming for) is still struggling to recover from a historically long period of low oil & gas prices. For most UK offshore flying, you will also have limited places that you could reasonably live.

That was what I thought, hence looking at the FW route. Only concern is poor roster patterns.

So how much FW and FW PIC?

FW only about 70 hours of which maybe 5 or 6 PIC. Having done some enquiring it seems an ATPL(H)/IR or CPL(A)/IR will cost about the same, c.£25,000 once I have used my military learning and resettlement credits.

[rudestuff]

You replied too quickly! I was in the middle of editing my post ^^

[havick]

That was what I thought, hence looking at the FW route. Only concern is poor roster patterns.



FW only about 70 hours of which maybe 5 or 6 PIC. Having done some enquiring it seems an ATPL(H)/IR or CPL(A)/IR will cost about the same, c.£25,000 once I have used my military learning and resettlement credits.

So if you go the FW route you’re going to be starting at the bottom of the pile most likely at LCC and if you’re lucky make it into a legacy within a reasonable timeframe.

The helicopter world you can probably get a decent job right off the bat.

That being said in the FW world the pilot shortage is real and will be chronic in the next 5-10 years.

[everynowandthen]

Hi folks, my son's currently doing his helicopter cpl & to be honest, I'm seriously worried about his prospects for when he gets it all done. There seem to be a lot of well qualified folks out there chasing v few jobs. A mate who's a FW captain has suggested I push him towards FW, saying there are many more opportunities out there for someone starting from the bottom of the pile.
Any thoughts?

[dingo9]

faarn- I have a very similar background to you. I left mil RW 3 yrs ago and was lucky enough to walk straight into a RW civ job. 20/20 hindsight I probably should have sat on my hands and gone FW. The RW world is a rocky ride at the moment, redundancies quite common and more pilots than jobs. FW is far more stable. You would take an initial pay cut with FW but eventually the pay ceiling is far higher than RW. Job security would be assured as well once you have some FW time under your belt. As for work/life balance.. RW possibly better, but I’d rather have a few more nights away and have job security.

[dingo9]

I agree with the above post. However.... of all the ex mil RW guys I know.. all have gone FW in the last year. Admittedly I only know a small percentage of those leaving but it must be a sign of the times.
A job in one of the above RW worlds would probably be achievable but it's not a pick and choose list, it's apply for all and you'd probably get one of them. HEMS most likely.
Also if you look at pay (not the be all and end all but for some it might be ). The only comparable pay to FW is O&G and SAR which roughly follows narrow body short haul pay. O&G is a fickle beast ( and if you're going to fly in straight lines why not do it where someone brings you a coffee at the push of a button!? ) and SAR is probably a long shot seeing as 100+ RW pilots were hoovered up only 3-4 yrs ago.

[ROTORVATION]

Hiya.

My advice would be to go Fixed Wing and do Rotary on the side if you can.

I’ve managed 5000 hours over 16 years, all through civilian system, and been involved with corporate, training, charter, filming.

However, whilst it’s paid my mortgage, I haven’t got a pension or any sort of plan as to what to do when I retire to support myself.

RW has been awesome; I mean an absolute blast; but I look at some friends who went FW and they’re financially comfortable, and still do a bit of copetering on the side. Whereas I live from month to month in my bank account.

It worked when I was single; it worries me most days now I have kids.

Ref FW atleast initially; get some early years and decent wages behind you, then if your happy on the home financial point of view, then go rotary.

[CYKFRotor]

I would advise the FW route and do what ROTORVATION has said. I started my CPL-H in Canada and got about 50hrs in before I ran out of money and went back to working full time to save up the rest of the cash to finish training,

My bank account is almost at a level where I can go back to training and I've decided to switch to FW since it's definitely a pilots market right now in Canada. My goal is to work a few years and have a good QOL and finish my CPLH when I won't have stress of potentially not finding employment in the RW industry especially the way it is now, Just my $0.02

[Helisweet]

Read regulations and think that a top job in Helos is flying passengers on a dry suit over icy water.

Helos don´t make big bucks and are not family friendly.

[MINself]

Ex Mil RW, jumped to FW recently, wish I’d done it years ago.

[Same again]

Ex Mil RW too and have had a very varied, satisfying and full civilan career to date flying helicopters. But the world is very different today as is the helicopter industry and I could not recommend a RW flying career to anyone. If you are interested in flying then a fairly safe bet would be to train as a prospective airline pilot. Until the automatons take over it would be an interesting and fairly lucrative way to earn a living.

I have done my share of offshore flying but have managed to avoid it mostly. Why anyone would think that flying a fully-automated helicopter over hostile (generally cold) seas for hour after hour in a survival suit is a satisfying way to spend your working life is beyond me.

[dingo9]

So all this begs the question.... who will choose a RW career... 5-10-15 yrs down the line when the current North Sea / SAR /HEMS /NPAS cadre start to retire will there be any one suitably qualified to backfill??!!

[drugsdontwork]

there's always lots of ex-mil, don't worry

Hmmm less than there used to be though. Add in people not training rotary for a while, people jumping across to fixed wing, retirees etc. I can see a rotary shortage a few years hence.

[Medevac999]

there's always lots of ex-mil, don't worry

You clearly have a axe to grind with the ex military comments which are unfortunately unfair.
There is no free pass when it comes to licenses etc you never know one day you might be sitting next to a ex military pilot who could probably teach you a thing or two!

[dingo9]

Cost of a RW type rating and IR would cost more than a FW type and IR me thinks, could be wrong. So why would an ex mil fork out the same cost to enter a RW career that pays less and less chance of a Job... as this thread seems to indicate. I don’t buy the ex mil guys being a steady skills pool for the civ RW world any more.

[faarn]

A lot of good opinions coming out which has pretty much firmed my mind up to FW.

Definitely. You can get an A320 or 737 (probably even 747) type rating for less than 30k EUR. A139/S92 on the other hand 50k+

Still doesn't mean you should have to pay for it yourself. Just the type rating in the fixed wing world is pretty much useless though... you'll need at least 500 hours on type for the good jobs, hence all the pay 2 fly scams :-(

Once completed are there any airlines that are more pro military (specifically RW convertees)? I am pretty much resigned to the fact I will have to sell my soul for 1 year to build some hours up.

[dingo9]

From the those I know who have left in the last year or two to peruse a FW Career ( those being Mil RW) all have landed jobs across the board with different Airlines ; including BA, but that one was 2 years ago when they hoovered up a lot of pilots. EasyJet did have a weighting system where they count RW hours at a reduced level- not sure if they still do this. Jet 2 seem pro military, Norwegian have taken a couple without the 500 HRs as well. Bottom line from what I’ve seen, get the licenses and cast the net wide-you’ll land a Job. The 500 HRs is about airmanship/captaincy and time in the air rather than the FW specific manual handling skills.

[Valens13]

Hi everyone just to introduce myself, I have 30 hours on a piper pa38 but this was some time ago now and I am looking to get my Heli Licence, I’m now 31 so hope it’s not too late in life also I don’t have a rich family so I will be doing my best to take an hour a week and to at least get my ppl, i would like to go commercial in the end but of course money is restrictive! Anyway here it starts!

[ersa]

Welcome to the forum, would help with your location for school recommendations

[Valens13]

I am in Malaga and have spoken a little to world aviation but they have been quite slow to respond, I’m guessing because I won’t be one of the guys with a big money payment to throw down

[Valens13]

I am in Malaga, I was talking with world aviation but they seem a little slow to respond I would guess because I’m not one of the guys with a load of money to put down but will continue to try and get the information I need

[dingo9]

This type of thread pops up every now and then and I always reply the same. A Helicopter license costs more than fixed wing, there are far fewer jobs and they pay less.... be absolutely sure this is the path you want to go down. Many people chuck 100-150k at getting a license with IR only to then be unemployed or earning not enough to pay off the debt. The O&G industry in the North Sea and offshore in general is only going one way, the only unknown is the time scale.

[Aser]

Valens.... don't do it... get your AIRPLANE cpl, ir, me, mcc, etc.
You can get a job with the airlines or as instructor but in helicopters...

[Valens13]

I am not concerned about how much I can make as an income and I am sure I can get a job so for that reason I do appreciate the advice but I am determined to do it I just wish I can manage to fund it!

[Ovc000]

Valens.......it all depends...
is it your dream: Go for it. When I was an instructor , I had students from different backgrounds and ages and most of them said flying helicopters is the best thing they ever done. (and some of my students had an awesome life). With a PPL you can have great fun flying and improve your skills next to a normal day job.

is it for a career: 31 is not too old for any career, fixed wing or helicopters. But if you're aiming to get a good pay out of it, then fixed wing without a doubt.
The investment in a fixed wing career is cheaper, the outlook for a job is a lot better and the salary is a lot higher. (but flying is not like flying a heli of course).
The investment into a good heli career means PPL-CPL- twin type rating and IR (~100-125k) and then if you are lucky get a job with a very average salary. Which will grow of course but it will take ages to pay of the investment you made.
Having said that, some people get lucky and get a good job with minimum hours etc.
A different route is PPL-CPL-FI (~70k) where the investment is a bit less than the IR route but the salary you will get is also less. With a good company you might grow into different types including twin engines.

In short: are you in it for money, fly planes. is it what you love to do, fly heli's. Money can't make up for that smile you get on your face each day you fly a heli. Although I can imagine a BA captain looking at his bank account might create a bigger smile........
Best of luck with your choice.

[BaronG]

I am not concerned about how much I can make as an income and I am sure I can get a job so for that reason I do appreciate the advice but I am determined to do it I just wish I can manage to fund it!


Well you seem determined enough. My general approach to this is to advise against it (helicopters in particular and aviation careers in general) - if the individual carries on anyway, they’re probably motivated (or stupid/crazy) enough to see it through.

If you can be scared off by stories of no jobs, poor salary, poor working conditions and increasingly joyless flying, then you probably don’t really have your heart in it anyway.

What I will say though, is don’t underestimate the impact of drones - they’ve already killed some “entry level” helicopter career paths. As technology improves they’ll kill more.

Passenger flying is a safe bet - if you’re putting people in the aircraft, you may as well put a couple of people who understand how things work (or blame) just in case something unforeseen happens (that’s airline flying these days effectively). With helicopters, the vast majority of pax flying is offshore oil and gas, and right now, that sector is still struggling.

So there you go. Best of luck with your endeavours.

BG.

[ROTORVATION]

Hi Clear to Land

I started my PPL(H) at the age of 18 in the UK and 21 years later I’m still flying UK Onshore full time in a mix from R22 to AS355 and AW109 and most types in the middle.

Its been a lot of fun, interspersed with Instructing, Examining, Filming, Chief Pilot & 10 years for a private owner.

I would definitely do it again, but be prepared for lots of travel, in order to make a decent income. Honestly, the salaries UK Onshore are rubbish... seriously rubbish... but it depends on what you want out... it suited me at the time to have a lower salary, because I just lived what I did.

Now I’m a bit older with little pension, that enjoyment I'm starting to realise has cost me, and maybe I should have learnt to go FW initially, and found my way into a better paying Fixed Wing world, then done some Helis on the side.

I’d say do it.... it’s a blast. But don’t give up the airline career salary. Not in the beginning anyway. Reassess when you’ve done 3 years of Helis and have a better insight into the job market, remuneration and longevity of a career in the RW side of the industry.

[lr_pilot]

Our fixed-wing flight department is adding a helicopter to the mix. We are looking at transitioning a few of our pilots to the helicopter. Looking for recommendations on flight schools that could do the helicopter add-on training for us.

[Sir Korsky]

Dual rated ATP guys are quite a rarity. There are only 2222 of them in the FAA system according to the data.

https://www.faa.gov/data_research/aviation_data_statistics/civil_airmen_statistics ( 2022 page 3 )

Many years ago I had a positive experience at Tomlinson Aviation in Florida. They operate the H300 and R44. This is a nice mix. You'll need to figure out how valuable the Robinson SFAR time may be to you in the future.

https://tomlinsonaviationinc.com/

[Medevac999]

Our fixed-wing flight department is adding a helicopter to the mix. We are looking at transitioning a few of our pilots to the helicopter. Looking for recommendations on flight schools that could do the helicopter add-on training for us.

what country what license?

[lr_pilot]

We're in the middle of the US. Looking to get commercial license. I think we'd prefer to train in a turbine such as an MD-500 or Bell 206 since we'll be getting a turbine for our department.

[Ascend Charlie]

We're in the middle of the US. Looking to get commercial license. I think we'd prefer to train in a turbine such as an MD-500 or Bell 206 since we'll be getting a turbine for our department.

Hire some high-time helicopter pilots. Cheaper in the long run than having your 45-hour cross-trained pilots making basic mistakes and bending something. Remember that helicopters are unstable little critters, and are designed to crash. It is only the steely-eyed brilliant pilot at the controls that stops it from crashing.

[SASless]

Take a former military trained IFR rated helicopter pilot and cross train him into a fixed wing pilot.....many airlines went that route and it worked well for them.

[212man]

what country what license?
Well, his profile location says Oklahoma......