Gliders and avoiding them !

[VFR800]

T'other day I went orf to do a solo navex, departing the overhead from Kemble I decided to dog-leg round Aston Down, noted for it's heaving gliding activity, whilst keeping a SHARP lookout.

Having left Aston Down astern, I was in the clear thought I, oh no, a glider appeared off to my left (having flown overhead me I presume) and then promptly elected to turn right in front of me !

I hung a right, banged the power in and executed a climbing turn to the right, pretty pronto!! Now I know we're supposed to give way to gliders, but c'mon guys, if I had been looking the other way for just a split second, I reckon I would have had a good chance of 'buying the farm'.

Surely avoidance is a 2-way street ! :confused:

[dublinpilot]

That's of course assuming he saw you :(

Maybe he didn't :sad:

[Flyin'Dutch']

VFR,

It very much is!

I am pretty sure that this gliderdriver did not think: 'Let's bank right and I have right of way over the power driver so I will be fine!'

More than likely he did not see you. Especially from the angle you describe it will be difficult to see anything in which is beyond your leading edge.

If he did indeed come from your overhead initially it makes it a bit more difficult to appreciate that he was not aware of you but it does happen to all of us that we miss something.

A salutory lesson in how little we actually see despite keeping a sharp look out can be had by flying a machine with TCAS in the open FIR. Despite 'knowing' (as in bearing and distance) where to look you it can be a devil's job to spot the bogey!.

And before any of your wisecracks pipes up; I do have 20/20 vision, sometimes even without hindsight!

:D

FD

[Flap 5]

2 gliders out of Dunstable have just flown in to each other close to Lasham. Both gliders crashed. The pilots had parachutes and used them. I don't expect you had a parachute?

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Gliders are particularly hard to see because they are white (the RAF has determined that black is best for conspicuity).

I believe they are white to limit weakeneing of the structure caused by exposure to sunlight (UV, specifically, I think).

SSD

[Dan Winterland]

Gliders can be found a long way from gliding sites. Flights of over 200 miles are not uncommon. Gliders will spend a lot of time circling under cumulus clouds as this is where the thermals are usually found. Avoid these or keep a good look out when flying under them could be a start.

[Fly Stimulator]

A salutory lesson in how little we actually see despite keeping a sharp look out can be had by flying a machine with TCAS in the open FIR. Despite 'knowing' (as in bearing and distance) where to look you it can be a devil's job to spot the bogey!.


Quite so. On balance I like having the Avidyne tell me what's out there, but sometimes I feel that the former blissful ignorance makes for more relaxing trips!

It is surprising and worrying how many aircraft you can't see even when TCAS is showing you just where to look.

[IO540]

I would love to have TCAS. Unfortunately, for the £15k+installation one only sees the planes who have a working transponder. And if they are in Mode A only, one gets lots of reports of mostly-low-down traffic which won't bother anyone flying at say 4000ft. There is an awful lot of traffic in the lowest 2000ft; my guess is that most GA traffic, and probably the majority of XP-less planes (excl. gliders), are down there.

One needs to fly under an RIS and hear numerous reports of "unknown level" contacts, to realise there are many planes (WITH normal electrical systems) which either don't have a working XP, don't have it turned on by accident, or don't have it turned on deliberately.

Without compulsory Mode C, TAS/TCAS will only ever help a bit; it won't reduce the need for a lookout, especially as I suspect that those without a working XP are also a lot more likely to be out of radio contact (by choice).

And gliders are the least likely to carry an XP...

I've had a few close encounters with gliders too lately.

Not a lot one can do....

[Fly Stimulator]

IO540,

Yes, you're quite right about being dependent on other aircraft having transponders. Actually, not just having them but turning them on - I pass quite a few PA28s and the like which presumably have transponders fitted but don't show up on screen .

This is one of my main worries about GA TCAS; it has the potential to lull you into a false sense of security in that it's easy to start to assume that it'll tell you about everything that's out there. The fact that it tells you about so much traffic you wouldn't otherwise have been aware of only reinforces this impression, but it's a potentially dangerous one.

Because I fly microlights as well I'm quite aware that the majority of my lightweight friends don't have a transponder and therefore won't show up, but even so it is very easy to start to rely on that nice colourful TCAS screen.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Some time ago I heard a conversation between a control tower and a passing balloon ... the balloon asked what he should squawk, and the controller was having great difficulty replying "not to bother because I don't have SSR, and anyway I can see you out the window" without collapsing with the giggles!

That was a while back. Is it usual for balloons to carry transponders these days?

[Hilico]

I don't know about is it usual, but if EASA has its way it will become so within a year or two. The compulsory fitment and use of Mode S transponders for all (sic) flying machines is one that is currently exercising the collective minds of the representative bodies. Personally I thought it was like requiring pushbikes to be fitted with tachographs, but having seen this thread I'm not quite so sure.

[bluskis]

What happened to the pilots who think look out is the answer to mid air avoidance?

None have appeared on the thread yet, but they will.

[Hilico]

Sorry bluskis, didn't see you there.

[flyingfemme]

VFR - just past Aston Down is Nympsfield (another popular gliding site). This week they were hosting a large competition event and, at times, the gliders were so thick you couldn't count them! On wednesday they were flying a 200km course (out and return) so they were spread over a wide area of countryside.......

[Fly Stimulator]

bluskis,

Pointing out that the Mk I eyeball is unfortunately not a 100% effective means of avoiding collisions is not the same as suggesting that it's not the best option that most of us have most of the time.

[Kegbuster]

Don't expect just to see gliders over a gliding site. During a typical 9 day competition there will be over 60 gliders flying tasks from 150km to over 500kms,racing round. From 1 glider in a thermal to over 30 in a gaggle, cruising from 60kts to 100kts. All comp pilots wear parachutes & when thermaling in a gaggle the risk of collision is HIGH.

[bluskis]

Fly Sim

Can't argue with that, but it is better if we don't rely on them 100% and try and use other resources.

I wonder how much look out a glider pilot does when he is concentrating on the rate of climb indicator and circling at the same time.

[CFI's permission req]

Having been involved in the open national comps at Lasham a couple of weeks ago where we were set tasks over 650kms the areas of countryside covered with bloody hard to see gliders can be pretty staggering.
As to the level of lookout kept by glider drivers, it's actually very high, especially in thermals.
When you are in a gaggle with up to 40 other gliders all spinning in their own variations of a circle and vertical separation in the tens of feet between you and the next 750kg of plastic doing 55kts self preservation dictates that you activley participate in the 3D version of "asteroids" you find yourself in.
The VSI main output is audio, the analouge display is there really just for decoration.
Nav in a staright line is handled pretty much automatically by computers these days so that doesn't take much "head down" to follow.
We are _always_ looking for other gliders / ac you literally have a sore neck after a 6-8 hour comp flight.

Do have to agree that we are _very_ difficult to see from any distance away.

Don't know how to improve that situation though.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Do have to agree that we are _very_ difficult to see from any distance away.

Don't know how to improve that situation though. "Paint the f*****g things black instead of white" has been suggested. (Not having seen a black glider myself I can't personally judge whether this would work for me.)

[bluskis]

Perhaps gliders could be equipped with a capacitance driven high intensity flash light, energised from an airflow driven rotor.

Light doesn't take much energy to produce, so should it not inhibit performance noticebly, and light flashes are very attention seeking.

Alternatively there are those joggy red flashy lamps cyclists sometimes use on a rainy November night.

[Flyin'Dutch']

BS,

Other than at night how often is the flash of an ACL the first thing you see from an aircraft?

Flew near Cardington last week and the blimp was out playing.

It has a flashing beacon on its rear. I could just make it out against the wopping big background which was the blimp itself.

FD

[bluskis]

I do agree that I have never seen a flashing beacon before, or even noticed it after, I have spotted another light aircraft in daylight.

However there are times when a glider is well nigh invisible and any high intensity light may help.

We put on landing lights in daylight approaches, and magic, we can be seen in the haze. I sometimes put on my landing light in poor viz when in choke points where there may be oncoming traffic.

[CFI's permission req]

"Paint the f*****g things black instead of white" has been suggested. (Not having seen a black glider myself I can't personally judge whether this would work for me.)

As there are a couple of black gliders out there, that obviously doesn't work either :D

as for turbine powered lights, ahem.
People don't spend £120,000 on a sailplane to go and stick drag inducing devices on the outside of them.

[IO540]

There is no doubt whatsoever that one could make a low power transponder, battery powered and weighing under 2-3kg in total, which would do the job at short range (few miles) as far as TAC/TCAS systems go. Cost? Perhaps under £1000 in volume.

Then you've got the ever so slight problem of fitting the mostly-decrepit GA fleet with the other half of the system. Present cost is about £20k; this would come down but almost nobody would spend the money, and there are enough people who believe it is their god given right to not have a transponder, so nothing is ever going to happen.

That's why I would not spend money on TAS; if you are higher up there isn't normally much traffic there (other than IFR traffic playing by the rules) and lower down there are so many undetectable planes that it wouldn't make much difference.

[ATC Watcher]

Painting a glider black : :{ the UV absorbtion and the Temp of the gelcoat might alter the life of our precious machines !
If I remember the the USAF has a/c painted black : SR71, B2, F117, etc.. not to be seen....

The strobe light does not work on bright sunshine = 90% of the time when gliders fly , ( except possibly in the UK ;) )

The low cost / low weight / low consumption SSR for gliders exists already : Becker has one with mode C encoder and antenna for 3000 euros. But it is not mandatory (YET)

No need for TCAS at 50.000 Euros for GA, ADS-B displays will do the trick for 3 or 4.000 euros when they will be available ,

Best trick at the moment : put orange reflective tapes around the nose, wings and the end fuselage, this does not affect drag, and cost very little. In many clubs in the Alps this is mandatory.

The BEST way however still remain to LOOK OUTSIDE all the time ...:E

[andrewc]

IO540

On the TCAS subject, I do most of my flying in the 2500-4000'
range and find Skywatch valuable.

While there are some non-transponder equiped aircraft
about, there are less than you would think.

The main advantage is making the encounter with other
aircraft less of a surprise and alterting you to how many
potential contacts you never saw previously.

I would say that on typical 1 hour trips it has reduced
the number of close encounters by a factor of 80-90%.

-- Andrew

[ATC Watcher]

Andrew, What is the current ( approx ) price of a Skywatch incl installation ?

for those wanting to have a look at the machine :
http://www.goodrichavionics.com/docs/Collision_Avoidance.pdf

looks very good but looks expensive as well .:hmm:

[chrisN]

To largely repeat what I have posted elsewhere:

Most gliders are precluded from other than white finish because raised temperature from heat absorption weakens composite material.

I have asked the question about strobes for gliders in the past, and been told that they do not significantly aid visibility. Furthermore there are no approved modifications to fit them. While not impossible to overcome, that is a considerable hurdle for a fitment of dubious benefit.

The glint from wings is a huge signal compared with a strobe, though only effective when a glider is turning, and even that I find limited to a range of 1-2 miles.

High visibility fluorescent paint has been tried in controlled tests and found not to help - surprising, but true.

Batteries are a big problem for many - there is no room for more, and the weight limitation is already reached, on some, perhaps many, gliders. Even the 2-3 kg quoted above would put me over the limit in my glider. I also have no panel space, nor space elsewhere in the cockpit, for an extra box or two.

Could those who think solar power is the answer please look up what output you can get from a panel that would fit on a glider, and compare it with the power needed to drive a strobe or a transponder.

Personally I would welcome a workable solution. So far I am not convinced that there is one. I have no more wish to have anyone else fly into me from a blind spot than he/she has to do it. Statistically, however, GA/glider collisions are about the rarest form of accident. I can only recall two in over 30 years, and one of those was tug/glider in the vicinity of their home gliding site. Both power pilots and glider pilots have found far more prevalent ways of killing themselves.

Chris N

[Mike Cross]

And of course the white finish issue is equally applicable to powered aircraft constructed of the same materials. Anyone seen a black Europa, Jabiru, Sky Arrow, Polaris, Grob..........?

The main point at which it is difficult to see a glider is when it's pointing at you or away from you at the same height because of their low frontal area. However gliders tend not to be doing that for long so a visual scan that looks at the same piece of sky twice with a few seconds between is very likely to pick it up as it turns. If it wan't easily visible on the first sweep it is probably a lot easier to see on the second.

Mike

[astir 8]

Re bluskis query on how glider pilots watch their rate of climb indicator and keep a good lookout at the same time.

It's done by having an audio output from the rate of climb indicator (variometer) which makes happy noises when you're going up and derisive noises when you're going down.

So they don't have to watch it, they listen to it.

And the sound can be heard, because there ain't no noisy lump hanging on the front of the aircraft.

And personally I fly a red white and blue glider, which as it's made out of wood, doesn't go floppy in the sun.

[Parapunter]

I'll chuck my twopenneth in! I'm a PAraglider pilot - hill launch oversized kite. I can't talk for the sailplane fraternity, but I can offer a few pointers from our lot. The majority of soaring sites are marked on airmaps, some aren't however & that can be a problem. If we fly around military areas, Wales, Peaks etc, we NOTAM the freephone RAF no during the week. The vast majority of hang & paraglider pilots will fly belwo 1000 agl all day, in any event, no one will be above cloudbase, except in rare wave conditions & then only the brave!

Long xc's are commonplace - 100ks regularly gets flown from my home sites & pilots will be anywhere from 50agl to cloudbase on those days, but they will be downwind of the hill they began from, so possibly worth bearing in mind. The xc season in the UK runs from spring to autumn & the classic days I.e. those likely to bring you into contention are post frontal light northerlys, high lapse rates, plenty of instability & cumulus clouds - them's the signs.

Having said all that, the vast majority of pilots are punters (like me) who do not want to bring down the wrath of the CAA on their heads & follow all the rules - it just takes a couple of morons to ruin it for us - currently, the CAA are making noises about compulsory xponders for us lot, following an airprox near bournemouth airport - we don't want them, so most of us behave. I spose we're a cross section of people like you'd find anywhere. Hope that helps.

[ft]

Modern gliders, as was said before, pretty much have to be white to protect the composite structure. Same thing as with the airlines being somewhat limited in their choice of color on the composite parts on the big iron (or is it “big plastic&iron” these days?).

A ram air turbine on a glider? Some algebraic exercise will tell you that a 300 kg glider doing 110 km/h with a 40 glide ratio will have a total drag of about 7.5 kgs. Not more. We add mylar strips to canopies, rudders and so on to prevent drag from air leakage. Competition pilots polish their aircraft to increase performance. Drag is The Enemy.

That amounts to an energy conversion rate of about 2250 W. Say that you create a ram air turbine assembly to power a strobe with an efficiency of 50%. That’s a wild assumption, and I think it will be rather difficult as you will have to count in the total drag of the installation in the efficiency calculations. If the strobe needs, well, 100W, making full use of those capacitors (how big and heavy will they be?) suggested to produce only very short flashes? You’ll have to use 200 W of potential energy. To get the energy conversion up, the GR will go down to under 37 and the sink rate will increase from .76 to .83 m/s. A GR 50 glider would go down to GR 45. In gliding, that is significant. And I think the figures for efficiency and power consumption are optimistic, although I’ll happily redo the calculations with more exact figures if someone can provide them.

The way transponders work pretty much dictate that they are very energy consuming. They’re emitting a lot of radiation energy every interrogation. Not something you’ll want to run off batteries for a day as you’ll have to lug around a significant amount of batteries! Further, they’re comparatively heavy, bulky and expensive. I’ll have a look around for that Becker thingy - it’ll be interesting to see how they’ve solved it.

ADS-B and VDL mode 4 is the way to go. Installations are being flight tested.

Fluorescent panels are indeed often required in mountain flying. Not since they help visibility in the air, to the best of my understanding, but rather to aid search and rescue should the worst happen.

Cheers,
Fred

[chrisN]

There is a thread on a (mainly American) soaring webite - "ras" - on transponders. They are fitted to some gliders in the USA in regions where flights are habitually near airline routes. One recent posting included reference to an 18AH battery, which is far larger than any I have seen (or seen room for) in any UK-based gliders. It refers to a motor glider (Schleicher ASW 26E) with a foldaway engine having doors on top of the fuselage (behind the cockpit and wings) and a retractable undercarriage. I don't know how the modifications for installing the transponder would get approved in the UK, though I expect it could be done on the same model in this country, at a cost, if the CAA would permit it:

"I have the 175 watt Becker with ACK A30 encoder in my 26E. No clue how long
the ship's 18 AH avionics battery would power it as there's solar panels on
the engine bay doors helping out. If I turned off WinPilot I could probably
sell power to the utility. In any case, I suspect it'll last way longer than
me. AFAIK the 250 watt Becker is only recommended if you spend a lot of time
in the upper flight levels.

"Antenna is mounted on the belly just aft of the gear door. The thinking is
to get the antenna as far as possible, within reason, away from the pilot's
body. No sense testing the long term effects of high frequency radiation."

This sort of thing certainly could not be done at present on the glider I normally fly, nor on many others, because of weight and space limitations.

Chris N.

[chrisN]

Further to previous postings about conspicuity of gliders, I have just seen on the (mainly American) soaring website - "ras" some postings on strobes.

One quote: " . . . the distance at which the
strobe was noticeable during the day was so relatively short that there
was minimal benefit to the installation"

Another: "The other issue is power consumption. The Whelan Cometflash strobes in my
Mooney draw about 7 amps at 12 volts. They're bright, perhaps even bright
enough to be effective in daylight. On the other hand, the strobes in my
Stemma draw only about 2 amps . . . nowhere near as bright, they would be
next to useless in daylight."

I believe most gliders have a 7AH battery, so the Mooney-type strobe would drain it in an hour, even without the other glider instruments taking any current. In practice a separate battery would be needed for the instruments etc. Some gliders have provision for two batteries, and/or a 12AH capacity, but even so there is little hope that present strobe technology would be practicable and helpful.

I wish there were an effective solution, but it seems that there is none yet.

Chris N.

[MLS-12D]

I have never seen a glider whilst flying an airplane (of course, that doesn't mean that they're not out there, just that I haven't spotted them). But I have seen quite a few airplanes whilst flying gliders. Almost without exception, they have been far below me.

My advice for glider avoidance is to fly as low as is reasonably safe. Generally speaking, if you are less than 3000' agl you won't run into much glider traffic.

MLS-12D

P.S. I appreciate that this advice may be impractical for Boeings and Airbuses, but I don't consider them 'real airplanes' anyway! ;)

[IO540]

MLS-12D

I have never seen a glider whilst flying an airplane

I was just about to ask which universe you live in; then noticed you are in Canada :O

I see countless gliders, everywhere up to say FL060.

Flying low is the worst advice for GA traffic; most of it is already below 2000ft agl and most military low flying is done there also. The higer one is, the less traffic there is, the better service one gets from radar units, etc...

[david viewing]

Surely there is an answer to the conspicuosity (is the such a word?) problem - sunlight.

It must be possible to make a honeycomb of modified cube corner reflectors that, when formed in the shape of a fuselage panel, would give a useful 'glint' in most orientations and lighting conditions, perhaps even when thermalling under clouds.

To do this, the reflectors would reflect through angles other than the 90 deg used in cat's eyes. I wonder if this has been tried? It's not the steady intensity of reflection that's needed - just the momentary flash of a single reflector aligning the sun and the observer's eye. The continual manoeuvering of the glider would do the rest.

Just an idea.

[MLS-12D]

Hello Io540!Flying low is the worst advice for GA traffic; most of it is already below 2000ft agl and most military low flying is done there also. The higer one is, the less traffic there is, the better service one gets from radar units, etc...You may well be right, however I stand by my advice that you can miss virtually all glider traffic by flying low. I don't know any soaring pilots who voluntarily fly below 2000' agl: "get high and stay high" is usually the nature of the game.

Cheers,

MLS-12D

P.S. Sorry to hear that military traffic is a problem for you. Here, essentially all fast jet low-level tactical flying is confined to Alberta (Cold Lake Air Weapons Range) and Labrador (Goose Bay (http://www.capitalnet.com/~pmogb/website/home_page/where_2_e.html)), both of which are bigger than the entire UK. Miles upon miles of empty tundra, far from civilization: just the place for the boys to do their Mach 1 stuff at 50'. :ooh:

[FlyingForFun]

I've seen gliders well below 2000' regularly around here. Quite likely because airspace restrictions mean they can't get much higher....

FFF
--------------

[IO540]

FFF

Given they have no transponders, nobody would notice would they :O

[MLS-12D]

I've seen gliders well below 2000' regularly around here.Maybe they are doing winch launches and circuits?

[WorkingHard]

Glider pilots. If the safety experts dictate a change then so be it. Live with it like we all have to in powered flight. So your glide ratio is lessened. Won't that apply to everyone so the level playing field remains. many of us don't need or want FM immune radio fits. BUT if we want to use certain airspace then we have to have it fitted. If it is decreed that a transponder is required to be used for any flight then as I said so be it

[Final 3 Greens]

Lets treat gliders like other dangerous things in this PC age and ban them.

Airspace should be optimised to support commercial aviation; GA at least provides ab initio training for future ATPLs in the form of PPLs, but what use are gliders?????

Sorry guys, but your are the weakest link .................... goodbye

[rich_hodgetts]

Hi There,

After the last couple of posts I could not resist putting my opinion across.

We seem to be getting into a GA vs Gliding debate and as a regular of both I feel able to comment.

We only seem to be considering high performance competition gliders at the moment. I would suggest that the reality is that most gliding is carried out in simple wood/fabric/steel gliders with almost no electrical system – often no radio. The concept of retrofitting the UK’s entire glider fleet with a ram air turbine, strobe system and transponder is simply totally impractical and would double the cost of many aircraft. Many people choose gliding because they can afford it – less than £25 per hour in many cases! FM immunity might seem painful but GA regularly flies in all manner of airspace where aircraft do rely more on technology for collision avoidance – gliders do not!

As an instructor I always tell my students that the best way to stay alive in any cockpit is to scan every visible part of the sky every few seconds. You might not spot the glider until quite late but I bet it’s not too late – and that’s what matters!

We are just coming up to 100 years of powered flight (and a few more for gliding) – for how many of these years has flying been relatively safe and for how many years have we had TCAS, GPS and all the other gizmo’s?

Keep Looking!

[WorkingHard]

I think the major problem here is that the gliding community are perceived to be against anything that imposes any kind of restriction on them. Stop saying "we are gliders and are exempt/cant do that/wont do that" Join the real world and enjoy what you have but in a way that is safe and secure. And yes Rich we have had 100 years of relatively safe skies but we now have things like regulated airspace which did not used to exist, we have aircraft exceeding 50mph (closing speeds, time to avoid etc) and because of cost we have (I think) huge numbers of gliders compared to say 20 years ago. Take great care to be responsible and acknowledge others or be regulated. That I think is the choice you face.

[Final 3 Greens]

Rich

I was being ironic, but making the point that WorkingHard puts very nicely in his post.

GA is suffering from commercial aviation demanding more and more airspace and gliders will inevitably feel the same pressure to come under regulation that will not be palatable.

Its time to wake up, smell the coffee and be a little more proactive methinks.

[ToryBoy]

Surely if you just paint the feckin' things a different colour then we would all be a lot safer.

The theory about different colours causing ultra violet rot is a load of cobblers. They can be painted a different colour and should be as far as I'm concerned.

SEE AND BE SEEN:rolleyes:

[VFR800]

Presumably, Mode S won't apply to gliders?

I just avoid Aston Down now! :)

[MLS-12D]

IMHO the only people qualified to express an opinion are active glider and power pilots: rich_hodgetts et al. Anyone who has experience in only one 'discipline' lacks necessary perspective.

Fibreglass gliders must be white, period, for anti-UV reasons (ToryBoy, I presume that you have a D.Phil. in FRP engineering?:rolleyes: ). But I like david viewing's idea of some sort of reflector panels ... that might help, and probably wouldn't cost much in terms of dollars or performance.

[Wot No Engines]

MLS-12D and others,

The reason for the white colour is not so much for UV protection, but because coloued gel-coat gets very very hot in direct sunlight. This could breakdown the internal structure of the FRP components (wings, fus, etc). The big problem is that this damage is not visible until it is too late.

Newer GA and commercial aircraft that make extensive use of FRP will also be all white for exactly this reason.

Some gliders have had the wing tips, nose and part of the rudder painted in bright colours - in areas outside those considered critical or high load. In practice, they make absolutely no difference to visibility.

I would be interested to see someone research using the reflective tape used in marine foul weather clothing. This could be set into the gel-coat and achieve a good finish. As it reflects light, heat build up should not be a problem.

From a different perspective, when flying in airspace designated for see and avoid, flying an aircraft with a limited view could be perceived as the problem.

Increasing the amount of controlled airspace is not the answer. If you reduce the area available uncontrolled, you just increase the density of aircraft, increasing the risk of collision, you also increase the risk of airspace infringements which is bad for everyone.

[Final 3 Greens]

MLS12D

Anyone who has experience in only one 'discipline' lacks necessary perspective

As does someone from Canada commenting on UK issues.

WNE

Controlled airspace is not a result of GA lobbying, but pressure from the commercial lobby. Have you considered the implications of the proposed Stansted expansion?

However, if and when the airspace is reduced again, glider pilots may well come under pressure to carry x-ponders etc.

[rich_hodgetts]

The Royal Air Force is currently experimenting with orange dayglo panels at two spanwise locations (each panel approx 1m square) on the wings of its glider fleet (as used by the Air Training Corps). I have been flying in and around these aircraft with these panels for a while and in my opinion they do make it easier to spot white aircraft in some ways. What they do not do is make a gliders front or rear profile any larger which, when talking about spotting gliders from a distance is really the problem! Maybe a reflective foil type material along the leading edges of the wings might make a significant difference with little or no loss in aircraft performance.

The whole idea of gliders flying in controlled airspace is, in my opinion a dubious one - they just do not have the freedom to do what they are told. How can we get into a situation where a controllers actions force a glider into a field with the corresponding increased safety risks. At present I think that the vast majority of glider pilots give radio controlled airspace a wide berth and regardless of any future airspace restrictions thats the way it will stay for a long time.

[ToryBoy]

No MLS-12D, I don't have a D.Phil in FRP engineering but I have spent several weeks looking into this for someone with the help of someone far more informed and far less opinionated than yourself.

You said yourself that you've never seen a glider whilst flying powered a/c.

I rest my case:hmm:

[Circuit Basher]

I am on the staff of an ATC Gliding School (winch-launched) in Kirknewton and have to say that the Dayglo panels assist to some extent in seeing a glider that is within (say) 700m, dependant upon aspect angle. If the glider is over that sort of distance, I can often see the glider outline, but cannot detect the Dayglo panels. The panels appear to be more visible when the sky is overcast and grey, rather than light and sunny with scattered fluffy Cu clouds!

[Final 3 Greens]

Rich H

I understand your comments about gliders and controlled airspace - in fact, I'm not suggesting that gliders should fly in it, but as uncontrolled airspace is eroded, I can see the pressure for gliders to carry x-ponders or strobes building etc.

It's a shame, but like the pistol shooters who basically lost their sport a few years ago, sometimes these things are imposed on communities for the 'public good.'

[WestWind1950]

I think a lot of gliders pilots wouldn't mind having a transponder if they could have one, but the kind they need are just now getting available and still too expensive. For one it's a weight problem, then the matter of where to put it... there isn't much room left on the panel.... then there's the problem of the electrical connection.... the normal glider battery would just die out too soon. If these problems were already solved, then I'm sure they would already be required! So, let's just wait until the proper equipment gets available.
As to balloons... they, too, they are not required yet. Here there is also the electrical problem... without a motor, no electricity!! :eek:
I always say, if everyone would abide by the rules (restrictions) already in effect, then we wouldn't need new ones! But when you hear about some idiot glider flyer circling above Frankfurt airport within airspace "C" (he was seen by an Airbus... of course ATC couldn't see him), then no wonder we get more and more restrictions!! :mad:

Westy

[engineless john]

To the unopinionated ToryBoy :)

Painting GRP structures doesn't help visibility. There have been a couple of studies published in Sailplane and Gliding done with motor gliders, and they found that there was no significant improvement by adding reflective panels. In fact at some angles it made things worse as the colours broke up the outline.

I would also ask the engine followers how many of you have your strobes on all the time? Does it actually make you that much more obvious on a bright day?

Cheers

John

[Final 3 Greens]

Engineless John

I certainly use strobes all the time when airborne, not least because it helps birds to see and avoid - as such its pretty basic airmanship for the powered community.

I also use landing lights in the circuit, on the basis that it may not or may not help, but it certainly does not do any harm.

[MLS-12D]

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Anyone who has experience in only one 'discipline' lacks necessary perspective
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As does someone from Canada commenting on UK issues.True enough. However, I wasn't purporting to do so. This is not a 'UK only' forum; or is it? :confused:

The reason for the white colour is not so much for UV protection, but because coloured gel-coat gets very very hot in direct sunlight. This could breakdown the internal structure of the FRP components (wings, fus, etc). The big problem is that this damage is not visible until it is too late.Thanks WNE. I stand corrected. I confess that I have little experience with glassfibre aircraft; most gliders that I have flown are metal (Schweizers, Larks, and Blaniks). I do have plenty of friends who own glass ships, and while the performance is enviable, the gelcoat problems that many of them have experienced (with 20+ year old gliders) is not. Life is a compromise, right?

[Final 3 Greens]

MLS-12D

It is not a UK only forum nor is it a forum that denies any constituency a view, so please think about that the next time you decide to discriminate.

This is private flying and glider pilots are most welcome to express views, but so are powered pilots, so your comment was way out of line.

[Pigasus27]

Airspace access for ALL recreational aviation is going to be the big issue of the future, if you ask me. I'm surprised the GA mags don't cover it more.

[MLS-12D]

This is private flying and glider pilots are most welcome to express views, but so are powered pilots, so your comment was way out of line.I am both a powered pilot and a soaring pilot. I trust that entitles me to express a view, if you can find it in your heart to permit.

"Your comment was way out of line", indeed ... :suspect:

[Final 3 Greens]

Dear MLS

This is private flying and glider pilots are most welcome to express views, but so are powered pilots

Shall we get back to the original thread with everyone contributing?

[LowNSlow]

Mmm I've not seen this level of personal slagging in Private Flying before. Chill chaps, ever since the emancipation of the slaves I thought everybody was entitled to an opinion.......:hmm:

The only glider I've ever been in was an open cockpit Slingsby back in my Air Cadet days. I've seen loads since in our crowded UK airspace. Given the vast expanse of Canadian skies I can understand how MLS-12D hasn't seen a glider whilst flying powered aircraft.

I still grin when I remember listening to a conversation between an American bizjet pilot and Luton Radar. You could hear the unasked question (gliders? International airport?) when he was refused a descent to 4,000' as there was glider activity beneath him :)

The invisibilty of gliders was discussed a while ago here. Somebody posted the frequency that gliders use as a "chat" channel. Can anybody here refresh my memory?

[Final 3 Greens]

LnS

ever since the emancipation of the slaves I thought everybody was entitled to an opinion
So did I.

Never flew the 'Capstan', but I have a few hours in Blaniks and K13s. You certainly learn how to use the rudder in gliders.

I'm not surprised that MLS hasn't seen gliders when flying powered aircraft in Canada either, a lot of Canada is covered in white snow for much of the years and gliders are coloured..... ;) (only joking!)

[chrisN]

LowNSlow wrote [snip] "Somebody posted the frequency that gliders use as a "chat" channel. Can anybody here refresh my memory? "

There are 5 channels used by gliders, but they have specific purposes, not general chat, and all except 129.9 are very crowded most of the time, certainly on the good gliding days. Bear in mind that nearly 100 gliding sites have to use just these, as well as gliders talking to car mobile bases - we don't get allocated different channels for each aerodrome. (The channels are allocated by CAA/RA; the uses are as recommended by the BGA.)

130.4 - cloud flying and cross-country location messages only

130.125 (i) Training (lead and follow) other cross-country; (ii) local and other flying,

130.1 (i) competition start and finishes, local and other flying; (ii) training (lead and follow)

129.975 as a control frequency within 10 nautical miles of certain approved sites and up to 3000 feet only - glider site frequency

129.9 ground/ground only.

- - - - - - -
129.9, and perhaps 129.975 also, is shared with other users.

(i) is the primary use, (ii) is the secondary for use when the primary frequency is very busy, where there are alternatives shown above.

These channels are not supposed to be used for some of the things that "chat" might include, but there are people who are not as disciplined as one would like (a trait not exclusive to gliding).

Chris N.

[ACW 335]

I fly out of a place literally a few miles away from Lasham. I started my flying career on SLMG flyiing next to Lasham..and yes it is hard to spot gliders! Our powered gliders have the dayglo-orange 'conspicuity' patches on them and i have to say, it dos help from certain angles, but in some light and viewed from some angles you just cannot see them clearly or at all until they are close.

With putting transponders in gliders...can you imagine what farnborough radar screen would look like during championship week at Lasham??! Yes, it is a good idea and we have transponders in ours...but the conditions in which transponders in gliders were used would have to be thought about...
Powered a/c are normally advised of heavy gliding sites by ATC and the answer at the end of the day is - It is your responsibilty as captain/pax to keep a good look out going at all times.

[Final 3 Greens]

ACW335

It is your responsibilty as captain/pax to keep a good look out going at all times.

This is true, but remember that some quite heavy metal may be in the airspace, e.g. a Canadair Challenger proceeding quite legally at 250kts.

If you get blown away by wake turbulence, then airlaw may not be such a great consolation.

I had a 'close encounter' (i.e. intended and advised by ATC) with a 727 a few years ago, in controlled airspace under radar control and it did make me consider how good viz is in jets and turboprops, since the crew never saw my a/c even though we saw them VERY clearly.

Still, its your call.....

[WorkingHard]

ACW335
quote"Powered a/c are normally advised of heavy gliding sites by ATC and the answer at the end of the day is - It is your responsibilty as captain/pax to keep a good look out going at all times"

You state the obvious and I would suggest that the majority of times GA aircraft will fly reasonably straight and level HOWEVER, experience suggests that gliders do something very different and movement is very unpredictable. I do hope glider pilots do not rely on powered a/c giving way. Perhaps I am just too cynical but no doubt all you glider types will tell me why I have this perception!

[Monocock]

WorkingHard

I thought you put that very well indeed.

Perhaps there should be a rule (I'm being serious now) that as powered a/c don't dart about, they should be given right of way over a/c such as gliders who do take up an orbital chunk of airspace a mile wide within a short period of time.

Think of it, you are on a long trip (2 hrs+) in your Arrow and you are in the middle of it with a frequency change, a VOR to select, a GPS to cross check, a passenger to shut up, a transponder to reset, a map to refold and a knee board to write on. Should you really have the added responsiblilty at 120 kts of looking out for someone doing aerial hoops?

I am being semi-sarcastic but when you look at it like that it does make you think......

(Blindfold on and ready for the firing squad)

[Final 3 Greens]

Monocock/Working Hard

The rules of the air follow the rules of the sea closely, so steam must give way to sail - but when a supertanker never sees a yacht and the yacht ends up as flotsam and the supertanker doesn't even have a dent or scratch, does anyone even know what happened?

Yes, air law is very clear, but the involved parties may end up arguing their case in front of St Peter ;)

[IO540]

ACW335

The transponder requirement isn't just for radar; it is also for TAS/TCAS.

Fortunately a transponder good enough to be seen on TCAS requires far less power than the standard sort.

The standard counter argument is that en-route mid-airs in GA are extremely rare, and GA TAS/TCAS is very expensive (a £20k+ option on most new IFR planes) but airliners have it and it will only take an incident involving an airliner and a glider... This summer I have seen gliders which were definitely a few hundred feet in the 2500ft London TMA (around MID).

[ACW 335]

:oh: Blimey..not being a 'conventional' glider pilot i didn't realise that they were able to venture into the likes of the LTMA (the gliders i fly all have transponders) and with it being quite a low height down south i can now see that it must happen regularly. Im sure something needs to be done to prevent showers of fibre glass in the airways (didnt realise it was that bad!:uhoh: !)

[LowNSlow]

chrisN thanks for the frequencies. I asked as I thought that it might be useful, when in the vicinity of somewhere like Biscester on a sunny Saturday, to listen out to 130.4 or 130.1 to give myself a clue regarding the position of invisible gliders.

Undisciplined use of radio is by no means limited to glider pilots unfortunately

XXX Radar, this is Jonathon Livingstone Sparrow cruising at 1,495 feet on 1006 millibars heading 260 degrees magnetic on an AirPath compass, sitting in the front left hand seat of Piper Tomahawk registration G-****, serial number PA-34/01010204, going to Sleap for a cup of tea with two sugars and milk followed by bacon, sausage and two over easy eggs. :mad: :* :mad:

[chrisN]

IO540 wrote: [snip] "This summer I have seen gliders which were definitely a few hundred feet in the 2500ft London TMA (around MID)."

Illegally, I presume.

There are or have been places and occasions where gliders are permitted in certain localised areas of the LTMA, e.g. during certain competitions at Booker with CAA special approval and then of course NOTAM'd, but in general gliders have been banned from the LTMA since, IIRC, 1975.

For the most part, the LTMA will be as free from gliders as it will from illegally intruding GA aircraft of other kinds; just as assigned levels will be free from anything else except level busts or people in the wrong place due to pilot or ATC error. Breaking the law and making errors are, unfortunately, human characteristics which seem incapable of complete eradication.

Chris N.

[IO540]

ChrisN

the LTMA will be as free from gliders as it will from illegally intruding GA aircraft of other kinds

Indeed - the difference is that not only GA planes are normally visible on radar even with the XP off (gliders usually aren't, it seems to me when flying under a RIS) but GA will have to carry and use a XP before long.

The question is whether having visually poorly visible and electronically invisible aircraft around is a good thing. On the face of it, no, but in reality there are few collisions between gliders and non-gliders, so it seems to work.