Where/who do you recommend for Hour Building?

[Spike001]

Hi all

I’ve been thinking that it may be sensible to get all my hour building out of the way before I start my ATPL groundschool, so then I’ve got less to worry about financially during the 3yr period of the ATPL qualification remaining valid, in which you have to complete a CPL and an IR.
I’m thinking of doing about 90hr building – bringing my total hours to approx 140hrs, and I’ll do the other 10hrs at flying school, where it’s advised to do some flying along side groundschool.

Do any of you know of any good places you’d recommend to others, where one should do his/her hour building e.g. USA, Canada?

Accommodation also has to be taken into account in the total costs, and I’m wondering are there any flying schools that offer accommodation and flying within a fixed price?

Cheers… :ok:

[VIRTUAL-REALITY]

Spike001 mate!
Go to the states, I did my hour building in Las Vegas, and had the time of my life. I stayed for 2 months and did 100 hour's flying and I can honestly say I never needed to fly a route more than once, ( except of course to get out of the Las Vegas air space which are precribed routes).
You have The Hoover Damn, great from the air and on the ground, you have Area 51 to the North, but stay well clear of the place, you have Death Valley to play Top Gun, Bryce Canyon an airfield 9000 feet above sea level, Los Angeles, San Diego, San Fran but these you need at least an Arrow or Mooney due to the distance, and of not forgetting the Grand Canyon, ( hint turn your transponder off if you want to fly through it, or else you are up at 10,000 to comply with the rules:mad: )
I stayed just opposite the airport (North Las Vegas) in self catering accomadation, called Budget Suites, clean and tidy nothing special and you get to meet loads of interesting people! I paid in total about 8,000gbp, for flights, accomadation $600per month, and of course the flying, I was using a combination of a PA28Rt and the Mooney which made it a little more expensive than it needed to be.
Go and have fun!!

[YYZ]

You may be best doing all of your groundschool first with a bit of flying on the side, some people do struggle to pass there ATPL's & therefore the hour buliding would be fun but not really needed.

YYZ

[Hufty]

I've banged on about them before, but try Mazzei, in Fresno California. They have cheap (and good) PA38s and can offer you cheap accommodation in apartments near the airport (although I didn't stay there).

The airport is in the San Joaquin valley, but it tends to suffer from low stratus I'm told in the winter, so take some additional advice before going out there (or anywhere) as the year drags on. I understand Florida is a better prospect for WX in the winter....

Good luck and have fun!

[malaysian eaglet]

yes the states are not bad, however get your visa first and accept all the limitations due to restrictions flying VFR.
SA is not bad, but is the quality at the "rendez-vous" and what about security in town?
South East Asia is opening new skies at south East asian prices: is it a new opportunity? That is the question.
The main school in the area is going JAR...

[silverknapper]

Malaysian

I wish you would spit out whatever it is you keep attempting to hint at (or sell). I looked at the far east forum after your last post and saw absolutely nothing to make me go there, in fact someone quoted $100,000 for an FAA licence. Pray do tell us what you have to say and stop spitting out cryptic clues.

Spike here's my 2 bobs worth.
YYZ makes a good point. I did some hour building in SA after my PPL then came back and am currently half way through GS. If you do it all bar 10 hours you really won't fly for 6-8 months. My advice is do some now but then keep some to do here. It may cost more but I believe it'll be worth every penny when it comes to the CPL/IR with regard to flying in weather and UK airspace. You'll have to pay anyway and 3 years is a long time to get the CPL/IR, I'm hoping 4-5 months. Look at syndicates etc. I joined one where we're getting a cherokee for £52 an hour.

All the best

SK

[strafer]

yes the states are not bad, however get your visa first

Not required for hour-building, only training.

[pittss2b]

Canada is the place to go.

Better prices, standards, no visa or security hassels.

Adam

www.harvsair.com

[FlyingForFun]

Lots of points to answer for what seems a very simple question. I'll try to get through everything!

First of all - hour building before the exams. Your logic is good, but not perfect. Someone else has already mentioned that a bit of flying on the side might help relieve the pressures of the studying, which is true enough. More importantly, though, you don't want to go into your CPL training having not flown for 6 months or longer - you'll end up spending a few hours getting up to speed. I'd suggest doing half, maybe three quarters, of your hour-building first, and leaving a few hours until after (or during) the exams, so that when you turn up at your CPL school you are current.

Next question - where to go. USA is good. As Strafer says, you don't actually need a Visa to hour-build there. Strafer knows that, I know that, and now you know that too - but none of us matter. The only person who matters is the immigration oficer who happens to be working the day you turn up. So, although it's not required, it doesn't harm to get a Visa anyway if the USA is where you're going, because the immigration oficer most like isn't a pilot, and doesn't understand the different between training and hour-building. Most likely you'll be ok, there's a small chance you won't be.

As to where in the USA, I flew out of Chandler Airport in Phoenix, Arizona for two months, renting from Chandler Air Service (http://www.aerobatics.com) - I'd definitely recommend them, and I'd definitely recommend the area.

However, with hindsight, I would not have done my hour-building in the US. I'm planning on going to the US for my CPL (I say planning, it's already booked so I guess that's more than just planning). With one exception, every CPL school outside of Europe is in the US - there's a reasonable chance that you'll go there at some point during your training anyway. So I'd suggest going to somewhere more unusual for your hour-building, just for the variety. Canada is beautiful, although I've never flown there. I've heard good things about South Africa, too, but never even been there. If I had to do it again, I'd have chosen one of those places to go for hour-building, and saved the US until I did my CPL.

Hope that helps. But wherever you go, remember that hour-building is there to be enjoyed - make sure you learn and improve, but have fun while you're at it!

FFF
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[Flying surfer]

There seems to be lots of differetn opinions here so I thought I would add mine.

To sit your exams you need min 100 hrs so that means you are going to have to do at least 50 hrs from where you are now. If you are doing 50 then you might as well take advantage of the fact you are in a country ( US/Canada/SA) where flying is cheap and press on and do some more (70-80 hrs).

I haven't been to SA yet (I leave in 2 wks for a 3 wk hour building trip) but I think you would get more out of going to the US. The US has loads of places to hire from and a PA28 shouldn't cost more than $60/hr if you are doing 50 hrs+. Last year i went to Air Desert Pacific with a friend and we hired a PA28 and did about 80 hrs in 2 wks. We flew all over California/Nevada and Arizona, saw lots of interesting places and it was cheap $54/hr. Accomodation cost us $20/day/person and then just food. ADP meet you at LAX and then each day give you a lift into the school.

You can find similar sort of prices in Florida, the most important would be to look for somewhere that offers a package. Somewhere they have accommodation, airport collection etc. I have been to the US 4 times now hence I am now trying SA, just a change of scenary.

When were you planning on going?

[malaysian eaglet]

I cannot make a direct advertising but the main training school existing in the South East Asia is discussing with several possible UK partners in order to present a JAR scheme similar to the UK-USA one.
The costing is not yet done because it depends on the choice of the UK partner. but the scheme will be quite less expansive than the current ones.

[strafer]

To sit your exams you need min 100 hrs

Is this actually true? Clive Hughes says it is, Bristol groundschool says it aint. Anybody know the definitive answer to avoid me looking it up?

[FlyingForFun]

To sit your exams you need min 100 hrsNo, that's not true. The only requirements for sitting ATPL exams are to have a PPL, and to have followed an approved course (and there are some exceptional cases where the latter requirement is waived).

Not sure where this myth comes from. Is it an old CAA thing? I know there was quite a lot of hangover from the CAA course in the previous version of Clive Hughes' book.

FFF
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[No. 2]

Not sure where this myth comes from. Is it an old CAA thing? I know there was quite a lot of hangover from the CAA course in the previous version of Clive Hughes' book.

I seem to remember some school's websites saying they recommended having 100 hours, so I suspect that that is where it started:confused: But according to all the official literature, only a (ICAO) PPL is specified as the requirement.

No. 2

[Aim Far]

Spike

Remember when you're hour building that you do not need to stay in one place all the time. I know of people who stayed in one place and did a series of similar runs each day, mostly out into the desert. Sure they got their hours up, but is that experience?

Why not rent the plane and take it away for a month? I did most of the western US in 3 weeks with loads of sightseeing (70 hours flying). Got experience of deserts, mountains, high density altitude, squall line thunderstorm country, cold and wet, VFR on top, snow, canyons, a complete mix of airspace. Others I know did a trip round the whole USA in a bit longer.

I doesn't necessarily cost any more because you can camp a lot of the places (though personally, I prefer hotels with hot tubs:) ). And if you are in the US, you will easily get courtesy cars or cheap hire cars or just rides from people hanging around the airport.

So I would look for a place that will give you the plane to take away - then it doesn't really matter where you start from.

[Bodie]

Provided you have a little extra spare cash, I'd always recommend buying a share in an aircraft and flying in the UK.

I'm flying a PA28 - my wet hourly rate is less than hiring an a/c in the US or Canada, and will have spent about the same amount of cash on hour building as someone going abroad. This is because I'm not spending money on airline flights, accommodation and all of those extras that are suddenly needed when you pack your suitcase.

I do however, contribute a montly payment of £50 to the group, meaning at least 4 flights per month must be flown to keep it cost effective.

What about when I'm done with my hourbuilding? Sell my share - a/c shares keep their price, I'd have lost nothing.

In return you gain the ability to keep working. Flying can be arranged with great flexibility in a small group, and ATPL swatting can be done during the evening.

Job done!

[strafer]

FFF & No.2

Ta very much

[No. 2]

Aim Far - Which club did you hire from?

No. 2

[No. 2]

Aim Far - I trained there actually. Great part of the world to fly in:)

[A and C]

I know of a very good deal to hours build but pprune rules prevent me from telling you about it !

[Spike001]

Thanks guys/gals for all this information, much appreciated.

I don't plan to head off quite that soon to get this hour building done, maybe within a few months, after I've hopefully found a interesting, fun job at Gatwick, and once i've saved a bit.

Once I've completed my PPL, I'll inquire about buying a share flying an a/c, I wonder how much they are??..

The west coast of USA and Canada sounds very intriguing. I'd ideally want to be flying somewhere where the scenery is just too good for words.

Cheers for the good advice SK and FFF, I should have considered allowing more flying hours to spare while at flying college, so one can keep the experience and knowledge up to scratch before CPL/IR.

It also sounds like accommodation is at a good price as well in the US.

When considering the weather in the US and South Africa, what can one expect with the months around December and January?

I'm not too sure if I'm correct, but are there landing fees in the US?


I'm suprised Florida hasn't been mentioned much, I obviously don't know the USA that well :P, it sounds there's better places to go :)


Cheers :)

[silverknapper]

Can't speak for the US but in SA it is scorching! Look out for late afternoon T-storms, very spectacular, especially up high.

[No. 2]

Spike001 - No landing fees in the US. And yes the West Coast is a great place to fly. Can't comment on Florida although I do know that it's a lot flatter! However, if you're feeling adventurous I guess a trip to the Bahamas would be fantastic:)

For group flying check out the classifieds in:
Flyer (http://www.flyer.co.uk)
Pilot (http://www.pilotweb.co.uk)
Today's Pilot (http://www.todayspilot.co.uk)

There's also a forum on the Flyer web dedicated for group flying too.

Also check out The Hangar (http://www.thehangar.co.uk) .

I'm also interested in getting into a group around London/SE and so I've been checking out these sites fairly regularly.

[FlyingForFun]

My 8 weeks of hour-building was in December/Jan 2001/2002.

In 8 weeks, I had three days when I had to cancel flights. One was a cross-country flight where the cross-wind at the destination was outside my limits - I could have flown locally if I'd wanted. One was a mountain cross-country where the cloud-base was below the mountain tops - I could have flown locally if I'd wanted. The final one was an aerobatic flight where the cloud base was too low for aeros - I could have done a local, non-aerobatic flight if I'd wanted.

I guess the weather doesn't get very much better than that.

FFF
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[malaysian eaglet]

I am stuned by some replies.
May I remind you that the hours building is a ''structured hours building", that you need to be advised permanently by at least a professional instructor if the aim is to join an airline at the end.
The hours building is not a serie of "promenades".
As instructor involved in the training since 6 years and as a former crew member of a major airline, I strongly advice all the young guys reading the present thread to make their hour building in a "professional"school if you do not want to spoil your money and if the aim is to join an airline.
You can make your hours building in Europe, in USA, in SA or in the South Est Asia, it depends on your cash or your personal choice but do it in a professional environment

[Spike001]

Cheers for the advice. noted.

Do you know of any companies abroad that match your professional criteria?

I've been told in the past that Naples in Florida is a good place to get ones hours.

Cheers ;)

[Romeo Mike]

I did my hours building at Naples in Florida. I did 90 hours in four weeks and would recommend going there for a number of reasons:
Naples is a good airfield to fly from. It is an ATC controlled field with Tower and Ground, giving useful experience in operating within a professional environment. Its busy and can be demanding on times.
American attitude to flying is much better than in the UK. Where ever you are, there are so many airfields to choose from, giving ample experience in joining procedures and landings. Remember also that there are no landing fees. If i had done the same number of landings in the UK, it would have cost about a thousand Pounds.
The American ATC is far more favourable to the VFR PPL. I flew into quite major airfields which in the UK you wouldnt go anywhere near, even if you could afford the landing fees!
If you choose the time of year carefully, the weather will be variable and therefore more like the UK in terms of visibility. I only had a couple of crystal clear days, which made things more demanding by far. Strong winds were also an excellent learning experience.
I had a great time out there, combining hours building with a thoroughly enjoyable holiday. Remember though, that 90 hours in four weeks is hard work. You wont fly every day, but those you do will demand between two and six hours a day. Imagine driving an average of four hours a day, (and having to concentrate) and you`ll understand how tiring it can be. It does get easier on the brain after you get used to the new environment though.
If you do go, its important to set a schedule and not to shy away from anything demanding. It would be easy to spend four weeks flying in circles in the local area and staying away from the controlled fields. But a log book full of `locals` will not impress the CAA.

[FougaMagister]

I think I'll just be my usual iconoclastic self and recommend hour-building in... France!
Did it in Florida and South Africa too, but these days I prefer to keep current in European airspace.

Contrary to what most people say, you can fly in France with just a modicum of knowledge of the French language, as long as you fly from/to controlled airfields, or to smaller ones (AFIS etc.) during HJ. FIS is happy to inform you in English.

Landing fees are extremely low (when they exist at all), they are usually not even charged, and you can land at commercial airports (OK, NOT CDG or ORY or NCE); I recently landed (and refuelled) a Cherokee-140 at Lille-Lesquin (29 Euros inc. handling) and Strasbourg-Entzheim (39 Euros inc. overnight stay and handling), and did T/GOs at Chalons-Vatry (far) behind an Air France B777-200ER doing the same. I don't think one could do that in Britain.

Most airspace is Class G til FL 195, granted lots of MIL R-airspace, but overall much less cluttered than Blighty.

A Robin rents for 90 Euros/hour wet (that's 60 quid), a Warrior for 107 Euros (68 Quid).

And you do get good restaurants on most airfields!

Cheers

[FlyingForFun]

Malaysian eaglet,

Can you please provide a reference which confirms that hour-building must be "structured"? It may be the case for an integrated course (I'm not sure, I don't know very much about integrated courses) but it's certainly not the case for a modular course.

Obviously, flying around the circuit for 100 hours is no use to anyone. And neither is flying return trips to an airport 50 miles away which you know well over and over again. There is certainly a lot to be said for applying some structure to your hour-building. The long cross-country that's required for CPL issue must be completed. If you don't have a night qualification by the time you complete your hour-building you'll have to do the night qualification as part of the CPL. The merits of doing an IMC course during this time are being discussed on another thread. But there is no formal requirement to have any particular structure to your hour-building.

FFF
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[No. 2]

malaysian eaglet - I'm sorry to hear that you're stunned and I do see your point of view. Most people will be aware that the hour-building has to be useful. Invariably one is improving their captaincy and decision-making skills and to do that requires some forethought so the flying time isn't wasted as FFF says - and as you said, some contact with an instructor may well be beneficial.

However, to suggest that a series of 'promenades' is of little use, is a somewhat from the truth. I would have thought that carrying out hour-building is several different environments has to be beneficial. I also don't believe that being coached throughout the whole of the hour building by an instructor is the wisest move from the point of view of improving your decicision-making skills.

No. 2

[malaysian eaglet]

Flying For Fun: these are my reference: JAR FCL1 (155) and LASORS + numerous appendices, IEM, AMC of JAR FCL 1.
I have never doubted that flying solo helps for decision making. But the training integrated or modular is ruled by the JAR FCL. There are some specific training which have to be done ... I will not argue any more. Flying For Fun notices that I have 12000 hours of flight in a major airline, so a certain knowledge of what is required to succeed to enter in Airlines... Do not loose your time if your aim is to become a professional pilot
Just an advice of an old flyer.