View Full Version : Reduced lateral separation
jack-oh
2nd Sep 2003, 02:27
My first question is: Can any civil ATCO tell me if it is permissible to reduced lateral separation to 3nm whilst inside class D airspace as it is outside controlled airspace, i.e. via co-ordination, same controller, below FL240, within 40nm of the radar head rotating at 10rpm or better, providing the ac are within solid radar cover.
The second is: I have heard tell that the UIR's base level will soon be lowered to FL195 and possibly to FL95 in due course and be reclassified class C airspace, can anyone enlighten me further?
The third is: I have also heard rumour that Europe is striving to introduce 3 new classes of airspace to replace the existing system. Can anyone shed light on this?
Finally, what will be the separation requirements be within these new airspace classifications i.e. IFR v VFR.
I would be gratefull for your replies.
radar707
2nd Sep 2003, 02:51
Class D Airspace is Controlled airspace :hmm:
At our unit we are authorised to use 3nm separation for all traffic under our control below FL240 whether inside or outside controlled airspace, privided they are operating within the criteria specified in your post, i.e withn 40nm etc.
As for the new classifications of airspace, it's a new one to me
jack-oh
2nd Sep 2003, 03:30
sorry believe i have omitted a coma: Can any civil ATCO tell me if it is permissible to reduce lateral separation to 3nm whilst inside class D airspace, as it is outside controlled airspace, i.e
Euroc5175
2nd Sep 2003, 03:47
3NM separation can be used provided that certain criteria are met. There is that nice little phrase that goes something like, "aircraft must be terminally manoeuvering"! The criteria that must be met include being with specified parameters, including a distance, 40NM, soon to be 60NM, from the radar head.
With regard to the lowering of the divide between Upper and Lower airspace, the answer is Yes - there is a Eurocontrol initiative to lower this dividing FL. Various values for FL-Z are being discussed. These include FL195. Phase 2 will be to lower the dividing FL to approx FL95. The airspace classification above the dividing level will be a new classification, but similar to current Class C.
And yes, there is a move to introduce only 3 classifications of airspace - another Eurocontrol, or possible ICAO, initiative.
The Euroc
FWA NATCA
2nd Sep 2003, 04:30
Jack-O,
As others have stated in order to utilize 3 miles between targets is when the aircraft are within 40 miles of the radar antenna, and the radar is not mosaic (receiving radar data from multiple radar sites).
Mike
NATCA FWA
According to a newsletter we got on the subject, it's a Eurocontrol initiative. The project looks quite promising.
Spitoon
2nd Sep 2003, 06:11
Take a look at EUROCONTROL AIRSPACE STRATEGY FOR THE ECAC STATES (http://www.eurocontrol.int/eatmp/library/documents/airspace.pdf) - pretty much explains the plans. You might find some of the other documents on the EUROCONTROL site of interest but some of them are becoming dated and have been superceded by newer ones.
Fox3snapshot
2nd Sep 2003, 08:06
Way out of the loop....
Hope there is some sort of "most important things you need to know about ATC whilst drinking a Moccachino at Starbucks" manual as this ATC thing is moving waaaaaay to fast!
What happened to;
"Just keep the blobby bits from touching" and....
"OK, I owe you one....it ended up a little closer than I thought, but hey, would've made a great scene in Pushing Tin!"
:E
Scott Voigt
2nd Sep 2003, 11:31
Oh GREAT! We are still getting pilots to figure out the change to ICAO airspace. Now you want to change it AGAIN!!! Damn, leave it alone... Either you are in controlled airspace or you aren't....
regards
Scott
Iron City
4th Sep 2003, 22:08
I think because EUROCONTROL policy people get paid piecework by the change.
Either you are in controlled airspace or you aren't....
Well, this is pretty much what Eurocontrol is trying to achive. :)
The objective is not to introduce new airspace classifications. The objective is to harmonise the use of airspace classifications across Europe so that 3 basic traffic environments are created which will make things simpler.
To start things off, all the airspace above FL195 is being made Class C later this year across Europe.
Thus when flying from Stornoway to Athens, at FL210 you will not go from class F to D to A to G to B to E to A to etc etc...insted, the flight at FL210 will be in class C all the time resulting in the rules of engagement being the same from start to finish.
In the future, I expect that all the airspace between FL115 and FL195 will become D outside the busy TMAs will be C.
Oh, and since ICAO rules prohibit VFR flight above FL200, there will not be any VFR flights cruising arround in this shiny new Class C airspace unless in a temporary reserved area eg gliders.
Does anyone really think that wee will see the London TMA as class C???
Regards,
DFC