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Old 17th Sep 2007, 14:28   #81 (permalink)
 
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" One-Two-GO is extremely regretful over the accident of OG269 DMK-HKT that skidded off the runway at Phuket International Airport yesterday. We will definitely provide supports and take full responsibility on every injured and killed passenger at our best attempt. For any inquiries such as names of passengers on board, how to pick up passengerís relatives to the point of accident including responsibility of corpse transportation, please directly contact the following One-Two-GO hotline numbers."
Not the most discreet form of regret.....
Perhaps it lost something in translation
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Old 17th Sep 2007, 14:40   #82 (permalink)
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Here is a video with an airborne shot of the crash site.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/new...m&asb=1&news=1
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Old 17th Sep 2007, 14:54   #83 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
From the Bangkok Post. A Thai passenger, Chawalert Jitjamnong, who suffered back injury fleeing the chaos, said the plane's captain had notified the passengers the ''weather was very bad and he could see nothing'' only a short time before he lost control of the plane and it went skidding off the runway.
Was the MD aircraft in question not equipped for a fully blind landing in zero visibility or does Phuket airport not have the necessary equipment installed?

Surely in a similar situation at say Gatwick Airport there would be no problem with landing in near non existent visibility.
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Old 17th Sep 2007, 15:15   #84 (permalink)
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Quote:
Was the MD aircraft in question not equipped for a fully blind landing in zero visibility or does Phuket airport not have the necessary equipment installed?
The aircraft may not have had autoland and Phuket probably doesn't have the required standard of ILS either, however the the Times was reporting this morning that the plane had landed east to west ie using 27 but in the diagram above it showed the plane landing on 09- if it was using 09 then it would have been on the VOR/DME approach which would have higher minima and could not be auto-coupled. At Gatwick autolands can be carried out in zero vis.
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Old 17th Sep 2007, 15:27   #85 (permalink)
 
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Orient Thai.......mmm, been an accident looking for a map reference for a long time. .............Know a few guys who have worked there and as soon as they find someone who will do the job for $500 a month less than you, it suddenly becomes very difficult to renew your thai vailidation !!!! These are the guys who sacked the pilot who tried to stop some phillipino mafia pilots from signing their licences after a four hour sim session which was videod with the "in sim" video during which time they played cards for 4 hours..............and is anyone in the know suprised they wipe an MD 80.........er..................NO !!!!
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Old 17th Sep 2007, 15:31   #86 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Was the MD aircraft in question not equipped for a fully blind landing in zero visibility or does Phuket airport not have the necessary equipment installed?

Surely in a similar situation at say Gatwick Airport there would be no problem with landing in near non existent visibility.
Zero visibility in heavy rain, thunderstorm and windshear is completely different than zero visibility in fog with nil wind.
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Old 17th Sep 2007, 15:41   #87 (permalink)
 
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Re: 09 or 27

Most journalists are not aware that runway "numbers" are magnetic bearings.
We can probably put the claims of a 09 approach down to their thinking "runway 9" is just the name for that strip of concrete.
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Old 17th Sep 2007, 16:31   #88 (permalink)
 
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A predicted eventuality??????

Being one of the expat pilots who flew for OX for two years, I can say that this was predicted by most of us who worked there and were eventually looking for safer pastures.

A Thai pilot training program was introduced in late 2005 for the MD82's where the average First Officer candidate had 200 hours total time and was paid 1000 USD a month. Indonesion Captains who were willing to work for 4500 USD a month.

6 days off a month with up to six legs or more a day. Duty time or flight time limitations? Are you kidding?

Add into that equation that the aircraft probably had mutiple MEL's that had been deferred beyond the due dates on more than one occasion.

Now mix in an ILS approach, an offset localizer, 460 feet minimums and yes he did land on runway 27, with a missed approach point 1.8 km from the end of the runway. Tell me.....how did he get so close to the runway with NO visual contact as reported by the surviving pax and the tower report that he was going missed?

Perchance...did the Captain set his own minimums, after all he was a seasoned Indonesion Captain and the Air Carriers he formerly worked for have been banned in the EU due to lack of proper pilot training and safety issues.

But all of this is speculation on my part. I only worked there two years and survived.

A sad day that should not have happened if there was proper oversight from the Thai DCA.
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Old 17th Sep 2007, 16:34   #89 (permalink)
 
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Exclamation

Mini Cooper wrote:"A tragic accident. The METARS suggest nothing too bad weatherwise, however evidently something was not quite right. This guy tries an approach from what I hear and he quite rightly doesn't like it so goes around - good call. Why then did he try again straight away - maybe press-onitis, maybe he was watching the fuels guages and didn't have the option of holding, maybe he hadn't thought about taking extra fuel before leaving Bangkok or maybe the company pressurised him to take flight plan fuel and no more??. You know the scenario, short flight, weather seems ok, 3% or 5% contingency fuel on a short flight in reality is NOT MUCH, the weather changes unexpectedly, hence he tries again as the options are running out. Maybe the vis wasn't too good but not bad enough for this to happen. We will have to wait and see the outcome. Don't want to put blame soley on him, maybe company has to take some blame.
Again a tragic accident - there but the grace of god go many of us - IF IN DOUBT TAKE MORE FUEL - GIVES YOU OPTIONS."

sizematters wrote:"Orient Thai.......mmm, been an accident looking for a map reference for a long time. .............Know a few guys who have worked there and as soon as they find someone who will do the job for $500 a month less than you, it suddenly becomes very difficult to renew your thai vailidation !!!! These are the guys who sacked the pilot who tried to stop some phillipino mafia pilots from signing their licences after a four hour sim session which was videod with the "in sim" video during which time they played cards for 4 hours..............and is anyone in the know suprised they wipe an MD 80.........er..................NO !!!!"


-------------------------- -------------------------------


I wonder how much commercial pressure there is on the crew to land ? I know Phuket and a sudden squall can give you quite a drenching. I was out in a longtail boat once when it happened. I would have been drier had I been swimming in my clothes !
What is the windshear accompanying this type of weather ? I was once told that analysts thought a likely difficult scenario would be a MD-80 series aircraft getting caught in wake vortex on the approach by a preceeding heavy aircraft. Yet the MD-80 series are very reliable and excellent revenue earners. I have also heard they are not the easiest to land.
One Thai newspaper described the specification of the MD-82 = Faster than the speed of sound .76 - Of course they meant Mach .76 - Yet this is the understanding one gets from newspapers.
One has to be concerned for the families that have lost; but unless there is a thorough and open investigation it will happen again. At the time of the 1998 accident in Surathani there were comments that a VIP on board insisted they land. That sort of thing happens in Thailand.
On commercial pressure, "If you think safe is expensive, wait till you have an accident!"
Unfortunately these days 'beancounters' run the show. The effect of cost cutting on safety must be addressed.
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Old 17th Sep 2007, 17:05   #90 (permalink)
 
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Just a couple of things to add...

Indeed, SW monsoon is still in full swing out west in Thailand. It usually clears up around late October. It's particularly heavy this year and is affecting the east coast considerably also, which is unusual. NE monsoon was light this year (Nov-Feb), and when this happens it's not unusual for the opposing monsoon (SW) to be more brutal.

WX at Krabi was considerably better, although raining. I assume this was the alternative...?
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Old 17th Sep 2007, 18:10   #91 (permalink)
 
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Thai and Indonesian airlines due to low achievable ticket prices end up buying 20 plus year old jets that require careful maintenance. But these jets fly often with deferred maintenance work. They hire the least expensive and qualified pilots that money can buy. Fly in areas with often horrendous weather into airports that don't have the latest ILS equipment on jets that dont have the latest equipment either. The only wonder really is that they are not dropping out of the skies daily.

Very tragic loss of life here. But as many believe, the odds of such an accident were greatly enhanced by all the factors. Maybe its not really an "accident" then in such circumstances. Its an eventuality.
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Old 17th Sep 2007, 18:43   #92 (permalink)
 
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ILS details etc...

For those of you who can understand this kind of stuff and don't wish to speculate a quick Google search revealed HKT's navigational specs at this address: http://www.aviation.go.th/technical/nav/phuket.htm

Interesting to note that in true Thai style, a surreptitious public blame game has already started in the Thai media...

"Probe Looks At Human Error" http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007...s_30049332.php

Notwithstanding, I live in hope and wish for the best for everyone affected. My deepest sympathy.
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Old 17th Sep 2007, 19:07   #93 (permalink)
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From The Nation:

Quote:
A source at the Aeronautical Radio of Thailand (Aerothai), which oversees air traffic control in the country, said the traffic controllers at Phuket International Airport had informed the pilot about the bad weather conditions.
"The final decision on whether to land was made by the pilot, we only gave him the conditions," said the source who asked not to be named.
According to the source, besides the heavy rain and bad visibility, there was 30-knot crosswind at the airport at the very moment the plane attempted to landing.
"It was a very strong crosswind. The pilot should not have landed," said the source.
The bad weather conditions in Phuket on Sunday were confirmed by the Meteorological Department. Chamnong Jitphakdee, director of southern meteorological office, who said that Phuket was affected by severe storms around 3pm and he had to update the traffic control tower every 30 minutes.
Chaisak, who is also chairman of Aerothai, reckoned the pilot of OG 269 might have thought the landing would not a problem as another aircraft, also belonging to Orient Thai airlines, had landed just minutes before.
Chaisak said he was informed the OG 269 pilot had tried to land twice.
On the second attempt, he said, the pilot again informed air traffic control that he would go round again.
"It happened very fast. Just minutes after he talked to the traffic controllers, the plane crashed as it lost balance and the fuselage tilted to the right," said Chaisak, adding that the landing gear "was not down" when it crashed heavily on the runway.
However, some passengers said the landing gear was lowered to prepare for landing because the plane had skidded off the runway. Some witnesses said they heard a series of explosions before the plane crashed.
Chaisak admitted that he heard a conversation between the pilot and air traffic controllers which was recorded by air traffic controllers. However, he hadn't released the recording, saying there was "nothing special" about the conversation.
"It was just normal conversation that every pilot has when talking to air traffic controllers before landing," he said.
Udom Tantiprasongchai, founder and chairman of Orient Thai Airlines, which own One-Two-Go, said it was too early to point the finger at the pilot.
"He is chief of the One-Two-Go's pilots with long term experience flying passenger planes," he said referred to the Indonesian pilot "Ariff", as many Indonesians use only one name.
Udom said all parties should wait for the results of the black boxes.
"I've heard someone questions about why we use an Indonesian pilot. I beg you all not to focus on the nationality of any pilot. The most important thing is their skill and experience," he said.
Ariff, an experienced passenger pilot with several Indonesian airlines, had reportedly worked with One-Two-go for almost three years and had flown to Phuket many times, said Udom.
A source from Aerothai said all air traffic controllers stationed at Phuket airport when the crash took place have been temporarily moved to ground staff positions.
"From the control tower they saw everything and broke into tears the moment the plane crashed," said the source.
Kanit Phromsatit, a pilot with THAI Airways, said the judgement of a pilot when landing in bad weather condition was crucial and admitted that Phuket Airport was a difficult place to land being encircled by mountains.
"The plane had been is use for 12 years. Normally, any plane should have at least 15 years good service," he said.

Last edited by Capt.KAOS; 17th Sep 2007 at 19:19.
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Old 17th Sep 2007, 19:18   #94 (permalink)
 
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In the MD-80 International Forum, sources close to One-Two-Go report that the deceased Captain Arief M., 56, Indonesian, had lost his medical earlier this year, but was nevertheless flying, despite having been grounded for two months. He was the Chief Pilot of One-Two-Go and a retired air force officer.
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Old 17th Sep 2007, 19:38   #95 (permalink)
 
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As for someone commenting on the MD-80 not being the easiest to land, I wouldn't agree, however there are two points to make here. The plane is tricky in only two situations: when it is empty and light (which was obviously not the case here), when it tends to overreact to any control inputs, and secondly, with a far-aft trim situation, when it will require a lot of flare to come down gently. In such a situation, it is also possible that the A/P trim will not be able to keep up with the sudden change in attitude and power in the initial stages of the go-around, and might disconnect, which might, hypothetically lead to a situation where they might have still been in auto g/a mode, the autopilot disconnected, and the pilot didn't manage to hold it against the weather. However, this is, in my opinion, unlikely.

Again, just my personal MD experience, and 2 cents.

Additionally, as far as flying goes, the MD-82/83 is a great plane to fly. Basically handles like an overgrown Cessna, and 30kt+ crosswind gusts are regular thing from the base we operate from here.

Sad day, anyhow.
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Old 17th Sep 2007, 19:52   #96 (permalink)
 
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Phil Space; the First Officer was reported as an "engineer turned pilot" and his experience was from One-Two-Go's ab initio program. He had performed well, though, and was about to join Thai Airways in October.
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Old 17th Sep 2007, 21:12   #97 (permalink)
 
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I wonder where the OG management's talk about a "12 year old" airplane comes from. If the pax manifest carries the correct reg, the plane was an early-production 24 year old ex-TWA.
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Old 17th Sep 2007, 21:19   #98 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
OG management's talk about a "12 year old" airplane
From yet more speculation I've no doubt...
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Old 17th Sep 2007, 21:28   #99 (permalink)
 
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Australian survivor tells his story:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7fc_1190048017
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Old 17th Sep 2007, 22:15   #100 (permalink)
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Phil;

Re,
Quote:
Corporate pressure is to blame here.
Perhaps, but we can't "name" causes at present as we don't have all the information.

In information-gathering stages of investigation, the immediacy of data such as DFDRs, CVRs, METARS (both official, and, I see, "unofficial" (rapidly unfolding/changing wx, perhaps?) must be intelligently interpreted and combined with the gathering of "softer" information which is typically the human-factors side such as the obvious crew history as well as the factors which you have mentioned here.

Corporate pressures absolutely play a role in employee behaviours but cannot be singled out, first because such a project demands a very wide examination of cultures and not just this one accident. We only know that there is a smoking mess where there was once an airplane. All the rest is speculation - some of it reasonably conceived, a though I have expressed elsewhere, but much of it is still in the "eye/ear-witness accounts and second/third-hand anecdotes stage.

Such anecdotes do point somewhat, but all possibilities must remain open until eliminated through the data. "Soft" causes such as fatigue-related crew error, while having made it into accident reports a few times, (the Guantanamo accident is one of the few which cite fatigue as a primary cause, the AA1420 Little Rock accident comes close), but reports generally favour hard data because change is so difficult to cite and support in soft causes. (Don't get me wrong though - I have been fighting the fatigue-issue for years and Canada still has a long way to go in escaping a Monrovia-like regulatory environment when it comes to fatigue-risk management. - sorry for the momentary lapse!)

I cite these broader examples because they each have arisen in this thread as "the" cause of this terrible tragedy. Not so. There is only the possibility of a hierarchy of causes at present, and unless there is an unequivocal, immediate cause such as a deployed reverser, we must be cautious, (I am not citing this as a potential "cause", I am expressing the notion of "clear-and-present" mechanical "failure" such as the Cranbrook B737 accident, vice what are almost certainly broader factors which must be considered as speculation turns to knowledge). Almost certainly, "one factor" will not be the case here and so speculation must take that into account.

BTW, I sure like your approach....it takes a short time to teach someone how to fly but it takes a lifetime to teach them when not to...
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