Or maybe?
 

Maybe the F/O has never upgraded?

My Thoughts
 

I'll probably get flamed, but here are my thoughts.

If this was my first trip into Branson, even running 5 hours late, I think I would have at the very least, gone direct to VUCUG on the RNAV approach.

That would give a great reference point for configuration at 5.2 miles from the runway at 1,700 AGL

Just my $.02

Might help landing at the right airport.
Something that has failed twice recently.
Even BA at Johannesburg could have used a little navigational help (in 500 feet take a slight left)

More likely spent most of his flying time on regionals, military, etc and recently moved up to 737 .

They made a mistake and picked out the wrong runway lights. This has happened many times before. Using modern
GPS nav it doesn't happen much now. This is an eye opener with all the new stuff to use it and extend centerlines like we couldn't in the past. We were happy with the old way but the new way should prevent this from happening.

@Ancient Geek
 

Probably not military as they don't build much time. Maybe the regionals, as you say, and possibly GA instruction.

I looked at the thread about the SW accident at KLGA where the captain landed on the nose gear, and saw that she had been with SW for 13 years (as of July 2013).

That would put this flight's F/O in the mix for an upgrade about now, if he so chose.

There are pilots who simply choose to not upgrade, (for bidding) and some that just cannot, but function well in support positions.

Does anyone here know what the latest is on Southwest's flight deck setup?
I know they were very archaic with their cockpit setups still using the old six pack with no auto throttle and no VNAV in a brand new LCD equipped aeroplane.

Has any of that changed? If not the FAA is going to have to step in and drag them into the 21st century.

Given most aeroplanes built since the 80's have LNAV/VNAV to the runway I don't understand how these guys couldn't have found the strip.

I am assuming they had no reference DME or FMC distance or runway plugged into the FMC. I just don't get how with all the data in front of you could miss the runway.

If however none of that is used and they're still hanging onto the old school dials then it's pretty easy to have the incident they had.

@Neville
 

It's been a long time since I flew the BBJ (737-700/800), but had training at FSI Boeing using the SW cockpit.

The only things that were round dial were the engine instruments, and those were on one of the displays, not actual round gauges.

Autothrottle was used. We did a lot of VNAV training.

The FMS and map displays were the "standard" depictions with moving maps, etc.

As I recall, one of the first things we learned was how to make an extended centerline.

I'm with Bubbers44. They had a lot of information available.

This is the sort of thing I was referring to. It was so they could have a common fleet setup with the older gen 737.

Photos: Boeing 737-7H4 Aircraft Pictures | !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There are photos on there from 2010 still with the old setup.

Correct
 

You are correct. That is a great picture.

It also shows some of the tools they had available.

Ok, I give up, what's with all the round dials on the PFD and the ND?

Round Dials
 

As I remember, when SW was getting the 737NG, they were still operating a lot of the classics, and wanted their cockpits to look the same (dial-wise)

Their classics are the old six pack too not the hybrid glass setup.

They are often blamed for the appalling setup of the B737NG cockpit because they insisted on the 737 being common rated from the 300 to 900. I believe Boeing wanted the 737NG to be similar cockpit to the 777.

acroguy----yes if you had a runway approach selected already and you didn't touch the FM/FMC it would still show the Runway and waypoints on the approach, the only problem comes if they didn't sequence correctly and you subsequently carry out a missed approach and select NAV/LNAV........oops.

Other than that the Map will still show you the Runway correctly, so if they had programmed a RWY before and not cleared it ( why would they ? ) then all they had to do was look at the Map and say "ahhhhh how come the runway we want is 5 nm away over there?????? Map shift?????? No we have 2 GPS's Mmmmmmmm bugga"

It becomes more damming! Captain had not been there before. The FO been there once in the daytime. They are informed that they are 15 miles away from the airport by ATC. Despite all of this neither pilot raised any concern about suddenly accepting a visual. TEM at an all time low. One runway is 45 meters wide the other 30 meters. Anyone who has landed on both will know the pictures are hugely different day or night. Did they even know the runway width? Probably not, as per Capt Bloggs et al, they would not have briefed anything. SA also at all time low.

This seems to be getting to the point where one has to think about how runways are lighted. Maybe there is some way to indicate runway length by lighting. From 5-10 miles out at 5000 feet I'm pretty sure the difference between 3500 and 7000 feet is hard to see if the runways are similarly lighted.

"Slope"....

Irrespective of length if you found yourself in the flare expecting a 45 meter runway and seeing a 30 meter one .. you would go around wouldn't you. These guys had no idea what to expect.

oops 3000 :)

So how to indicate runway length by lighting? Something that says "This ain't a commercial grade runway fellas..." Maybe just put a lighted digit on it divided by 1000.

Does anyone have the jepp chart for 14 at branson?

I only had access to the NOS chart (airnav.com) for 14.


And it does not show the "wrong airport" six miles away or any airport except the destination.

the low altitude chart does show the other airports nearby.

I can imagine that the captain and f/o didn't really know the terminal area and that there were other airports nearby. Wondering if they just jumped in the plane and didn't familiarize themselves with pertinent information.

My airline, and I am sure others do too, offer briefing pages for each airport served. Wondering if Southwest's briefing page for branson indicated a nearby airport?

Pretty ace operator to be able to tell the runway width at night if you weren't expecting any problem. I imagine there were clues for the crew to pick up what they were doing wrong; spotting runway width at night isn't one of them. Are you speaking from experience?

Yes. Landing at night on a 30 metre runway is something we do. You do not have to be an ace to see the difference. It's blindingly obvious. Anyone who has done it would agree.

MANY years ago, at least for daylight operations, the length of the runway was easy to determine as you approached the threshold.

Instead of what the europeans call piano keys at the threshold, there were tally marks, each mark one thousand feet of runway, and the strike mark meant five thousand feet of runway

look at very old pictures of runways, I mean circa 1950s or so and you will see them.

llll / I wish I could get the / on top of the llll to indicate five.

Bloggs....since you seem to be learning. If you are flying visually onto a 30 metre runway. The narrow width will make you appear high or low on profile.. which of course you would know if you had briefed ... But I think we have covered that one now.

Runway Edge Lights?
 

Wouldn't the runway edge lights and approach lights have been signs?

"Runway edge lights are white, except on instrument runways where yellow replaces white on the last 600 metres (2,000 ft) or half the runway length (whichever is less), to form a caution zone for landings"

Also, KPLK has MIRL and KBBG has HIRL

One other thing. KBBG has a PAPI for 14 and KPLK has no PAPI/VASI for 12.

Nonsense. You just think you are further away/higher above the ground, probably resulting in a firm landing. Profile's got nothing to do with it. 3° is 3° regardless of width.

On a clear night I hardly think the M or the H would be in operation...

Bloggs, this may help you understand the point you seem to be missing;

http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/812.pdf

Figue 3 explains what Ultrinque is trying to get across to you.

Good point
 

However, the PAPI would have been.

I was flying once into KPIT. FAA inspector in the jumpseat. Radar says traffic at 11 o'clock, two miles.

We see it and report it in sight.

JUST THEN we see another plane, same bearing and closer.

whoops!

Radar told southwest the airport was blank at 14 miles. There was an airport out that way but visually determining distance, at night is tough.

BUT, with the published level of experience and all the navigational equipment on board there were other ways of verifying an airport that neither pilot had been to at night.

In my case we didn't even have TCAS then.

USE everything you have!

For a while now all of SWA's -700s no longer have the round dials (the -800 never had them), use VNAV, and the autothrottles are operational. SWA does RNAV approaches (to include RNP) in both the -700s and -800s. The -300s/-500s still use the round dials and have no autothrottles but do have the VNAV. The -300s and -500s can use RNAV approaches as a back up to a visual.

I think it's easy for an inexperienced pilot to pull out stuff he learns in a classroom and criticize the experienced pilots who made a bad mistake. Anyone who is experienced understands better how quickly one can make a mistake and is likely less judgmental of his colleagues. It takes a real n00b to think they are better than that.

Listen to Capn Bloggs

What??

B is wider than 45m and shorter than 11,500ft?? And C is narrower than 45m but longer than 11,500ft?? No wonder they "don't look like a normal runway"!

I'll stay with my previous position. In my experience unless you specifically told yourself (or someone said "look at that"), you wouldn't notice the aspect difference on the sort of 30m/45m runways we're talking about here.

Looking forward to the Google Earth link to that 30m wide 15,000ft runway...

Lighting? fair enough, VASI? (or lack thereof) fair enough, runway aspect? I don't buy it.

NTSB
 

Sorry if this has been posted earlier.

January 17, 2014

WASHINGTON -- As part of its ongoing investigation into an incident involving a Southwest Airlines Boeing 737-700 that landed at the wrong airport on January 13 in Missouri, the National Transportation Safety Board today released a brief investigative update.

On Tuesday, January 14, the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder from the Southwest aircraft arrived in the NTSB laboratory and were prepared for readout and analysis. The FDR recorded approximately 1000 parameters and contained approximately 27 hours of recorded data. Investigators have begun to analyze the data.

In addition, the CVR contained two-hours of good quality recording. According to the CVR, the Southwest crew was informed by air traffic control that that they were 15 miles from their intended target, which was Branson Airport. The crew responded that they had the airfield in sight and ATC cleared the aircraft for a visual approach and landing on runway 14 at Branson Airport. According to the CVR, the landing was uneventful and it was not until shortly after landing that the crew realized they had landed at the wrong airport.

On Thursday, January 16, the two pilots and a Southwest dispatcher who was riding in the jump seat were interviewed by NTSB investigators.

The captain has been with Southwest since 1999 and has about 16,000 flight hours including about 6,700 hours as a captain on the B-737. The captain informed investigators that this was his first flight into Branson Airport.

The first officer has been with Southwest since 2001 and has about 25,000 flight hours. The first officer informed investigators that he had previously flown into Branson Airport one time, but during daylight hours.

During the interviews, the pilots told investigators that the approach had been programmed into their flight management system, but that they first saw the airport beacon and the runway lights of M. Graham Clark Downtown Airport, located in Hollister, Mo., which they mistakenly identified as Branson Airport. They cited the bright runway lights at M. Graham Clark Downtown Airport and the fact that the runway was oriented in a similar direction. They also informed investigators that they flew a visual approach into what they believed to be Branson Airport and that they did not realize they were at the wrong airport until they had landed. They confirmed that they utilized heavy braking to bring the aircraft to a stop and then advised the Branson Airport tower that they had landed at the wrong airport.



Contact Information
Office of Public Affairs
490 L'Enfant Plaza, SW
Washington, DC 20594

Keith Holloway
(202) 314-6100
[email protected]

Post #33 suggests that the flight was 5 hours late. If the original flightdeck crew went beyond the number of hours, might this have been a relief crew ?

Relief Crew?
 

They may have been, but SW probably doesn't schedule their crews according to how many times they have been to a specific airport. If there was an "out of duty time" crew from the previous leg, they might not have been to Branson either.

Regarding the lights and tower call.

I could not find that either airport has pilot controlled lighting. KPLK might just leave theirs on all night. Some airports do.

The same might be the case for EBBG, especially if they knew there was a plane inbound (which they should have).

They were probably up on the tower frequency as a CTAF and that is why they called the tower.

It is a good question though, did they get an answer.

The Branson tower frequency may be remote monitored by approach control.

OK465:

ATC doesn't issue landing clearances to uncontrolled airports.

I suspect the NTSB report is not very well written.

OK
 

Thanks. I see it now. Just getting old.......

If there had not been a set of airstairs available, this could have been an ugly disembarkation.

I found a video showing a set at the port side forward door during disembarkation.
Surprising to me that KPKL had a set.

Can you imagine climbing down fireman's ladders or sliding down the flaps from off the wing?

I truly don't know where the portable stairs came from, but I know in a situation without a fire or other emergency situation, you simply would have to wait for stairs.

And with Branson only a few miles away, moving stairs mounted on a truck shouldn't be too hard to come by.

I understand a crew of baggage handlers and others came over from branson to help in quick time. So too the busses.