I don't think the aircraft did a 180, as it's beyond the Norman Manley highway, and the nose is 3m from the water. Landing in heavy rain, in turbulence, downwind, with a possible bounce on the runway...

Obviously something went wrong with the stopping bit.

Wouldn't you say that has more to do with incorrect landing technique rather then the wind conditions?

FLIGHT SAFETY, what makes you think "possible bounce"? In actual fact, according to one of the interviewed pax, it was a smooth landing. If that is indeed the case (we'll all find out in due time) it could well be a contributing factor on a soaking wet runway!

Here we go again.

Like any other recent accident, this thread is well on it's way to 45 pages, of which only 5 might have coherent, valid, sensible and valuable information that commercial/military flight crews and ops personnel might find useful and educational. Most of the time this information is buried by the questions and comments from the uneducated and an impediment to the sharing of it to crews worldwide.

My humble suggestion is when an unfortunate incident or accident occurs, the MODS create two seperate threads. One would be for aircrews, engineers, dispatchers, cabin crews or any other ops or manufacturer types, the second could be for others that are basically just interested in aviation, and may have questions about basic aircraft, airport or procedures. Questions read on one thread could be asked on another thread.

My intention is not to denigrate or insult those who have an interest in aviation, I am also helpful and heartily welcome those here on Pprune that are interested in aviation. IMHO, I think the current format hinders the sharing of information.

Would it work? I have no idea.

Thank you all for your interest in aviation

Yes, indeed, here we go again.

If this is yet another FAA ops over-run, then one could easily point fingers about the very slow incorporation of Boeing advice on "landing on a slippery runway", some 2 years and 3 months ago. The FAA have yet to mandate the calculation of actual landing performance for operations, and many operators have been sitting in limbo.

Latest NOTAM from Norman Manley Intl

RUNWAY 30 THRESHOLD DISPLACED. RUNWAY 30 NEW DECLARED DISTANCES: TORA
2440M ASDA 2440M TODA 3660M LDA 2440M RUNWAY 12 NEW DECLARED
DISTANCES: TORRA 2440M ASDA 2440M TODA 2440M LDA 2440M THE DISPLACED
THRESHOLD WILL BE MARKED BY LIGHTS. 23 DEC 09:00 2009 UNTIL 31 DEC
11:00 2009 ESTIMATED. CREATED: 23 DEC 10:46 2009
Effective Dec 23, 2009 09:00Z

FYI:

KIN: Offset ILS DME (LLZ 120°, RWY 117°) 3° GS, DA 278, RWY Elev 8

Runway 12 Elevations - Landing end, 8. ARP (mid-runway) 10, far end 17.

SALS NOTAMed U/S last night

Not long before this event:

WX heavy rain in discrete showers,

Wind calm below 1000 feet,

Runway 12 wet, BA good.

REILs not operating

PAPI operating

HIRL operating

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n...og/AA-KIN0.jpg


http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n...g/AA-KIN00.jpg


http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n...g/AA-KIN01.jpg


http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n...g/AA-KIN04.jpg


http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n...g/AA-KIN02.jpg


http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n...g/AA-KIN03.jpg

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n...g/AA-KIN05.jpg


http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n...g/AA-KIN08.jpg


http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n...g/AA-KIN06.jpg


http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n...g/AA-KIN09.jpg


http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n...g/AA-KIN10.jpg


http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n...g/AA-KIN07.jpg

Looking at the photo in post 49, its looks like the Capt had his HUD deployed. This is a great aid in low visibility operations such as landing in a heavy downpour. Our carrier only has them on the Capt's side, can someone say whether AA has them fitted on the Co-pilots side as well?

Unhooked,

No HUD on FO's side.

Bob

Well, the first photo that appeared earlier today didn't look TOO bad, but now I see these I have to say, lucky lucky escape.
That must have been very close to a fatal accident with that level of disruption to the structure I would imagine.

Aye it looks a lot worse in the cold light of day. I thought they'd lunched the engines and gear but essentially the thing was intact. Odd that this was survivable for the FD crew but the Turkish crash in AMS wasn't, especially when you look at the deformation of the nose.

With the last pics in mind it looks like the Turkish in AMS. Differend crash ofcourse, but the flight crew and the people near the cracks are lucky survivors!

Edit: Reverseunlocked was ahead of me (phone phone phone).

Airline Info
 

As for operations, I think that you would find that 10kts tailwind limit is pretty standard for airliners operating in the U.S. -- of course further reduced by charted performance limitations. Also, weather classified as heavy rain is avoided for takeoffs and landings.

I heard an opinion from guys who have flown into KIN often, that the controllers range from good to bad, and tend to issue the weather that they believe you need in order to operate.

The runway isn't grooved, and will puddle in heavier rain. Also, I heard that the touchdown zones have a lot of residual tire rubber.

The fracturing of the fuselage looks like, from the photos, to have happened with crossing the rocky embankment.

When the "real" accident investigation reports come in, we should be able to change the focus of the pprune discussion away from the rampant speculation, including my own.

The difference was the type of impact, overrun with horizontal deceleration resulting in the @rse being torn out of the ship as it passed some rocky ground (although it looked like there had also been a drop off the end of the R/W ) versus crashing with a high vertical descent rate (magnified for the cockpit probably, as it was pivoted into the ground)
In fact it reminded me of the one that went rallycrossing off the side in a crosswind a year or so ago, except this time the terrain was even less friendly.
For the avoidance of doubt, 4x4 capability does not figure in 737 highlight features.

For the PPLS who wondered why someone might land with a tailwind at Kingston.

The only instrument approaches approaches at KIN are for runway 12 because the wind is usually easterly. An ILS was put in a couple of years ago on RWY 12. This ILS is offset requiring an adjustment by about 400 feet to align with the runway.

If you wanted to land on RWY 30 and it was raining heavy it is unlikely you would be able to see to descend visually below the MSA which is about 9000' due to the mountains to the North.

Therefore to land on R/W 30 you would have to fly down the R/W 12 ILS to the circling minima of approximately 1000 feet. In heavy rain you may well not be visual. You would have to either goaround at that minima or fly a visual circuit and maintain visual contact with the runway. A visual circuit at 1000 feet in heavy rain in an airliner at night is not something a professional pilot would choose. Therefore it is far more preferable to choose the ILS with an acceptable tailwind.

It is not appropriate to compare this accident with the Turkish 737 at AMS. The only similarity is they were both 737 accidents. It is probably more akin to the Air France accident at Toronto, ie an overrun in heavy rain. The important aspects in the investigation will be to establish

1) Was the last part of the approach stable.
2) How far down the runway the point of touchdown occurred.
3) What the braking action was.
4) How quickly reverse thrust was engaged.
5) What autobrake or manual braking was used.

If the pilots land and stop safely, great. If they go off the end they are accused of pushing on regardless into adverse conditions, Littlerock etc.

Inappropriate criticisms from those who are not yet in full possession of the facts are unhelpful. The opposite is also true. I cannot understand why one poster wrote "Kudos to the pilots". Presumably because they missed a hospital or school?

why don't we all just accept pprune for what it is...the good, the bad, and the ugly

I will even acknowledge myself as the ugly.

so...we also have to at least consider that the pilot flying screwed up...it happens...sorry to say.

think air france in toronto

think southwest in chicago/midway

think american in little rock.

ooopppssss

I hope they find that the brakes were screwed up...that the thrust reversers went inop on touchdown, or that the spoilers didn't deploy

but

oh well...a good go around is pretty darn important

There are no new accidents. Only new people making the same mistakes again and again.
Alt3

. . . unless you made the RNAV (GPS) Rwy 30 approach, which has a DA 0f 440 . . .