As a former USAir pilot, I watched this with interest. About the only argument that I heard from the pro-ALPA side was that an independent union was incapable of providing the support that a national union could, forgetting that there are some very successful independent pilot unions (SWAPA, APA, UPS). Not once did I hear any acknowledgement of the very visible mistakes that ALPA had made over the years (pensions, B-scales, crossing of other unions picket lines and the general fall of U.S. pilots from the highest paid to some of the lowest in the world, etc.) or that some kinds of change might be appropriate. Add to that a large enough number of pilots who thought that they really had nothing left to lose and the result is not surprising at all. While I question whether USAPA has a legal leg to stand on regarding overturning the arbitration, there is a large enough number of pilots from the east that don't have much else to lose by giving it a try that they were able to de-certify the union. This in itself is a prime example of mismanagement of the process by ALPA national (and ALPA USAirways).

On this and other forums, I have heard more angry and sometimes incomprehensible rants from the AWA pilots than from the east side. While I acknowledge the argument that the arbitration was agreed to and binding, I have never once heard an AWA pilot acknowledge that a large number of east pilots might have been unfairly disadvantaged by being put below west pilots who had less than 2 years with the company or who were not even out of grammar school when those east pilots were hired. By not addressing that issue, whether they legally had to or not, they helped to achieve this outcome.

Regarding the west pilots not contributing to the new union; I'm no expert but I believe that laws exist (or it just might be contractual language - I'm not sure) that require even pilots who choose not to join the union to contribute some amount for the administration of their contract or face termination.

Whatever the outcome, I don't think that anyone will disagree that this has been a complete mess - and it's a mess that certainly started with ALPA.

QED

That's my point. About all I've heard from the AWA side is that they agreed to binding arbitration, they lost and tough. After that it degenerates into rants like the above. I don't dispute the problems with trying to overturn the award and in fact, USAPA seems to have embraced the all or nothing stance which may see them worse off in the long run. What I have not seen anyone acknowledge is that IMHO, some very junior FO's at AWA received a windfall. I've read the award and while I would never advocate that DOH was a fair solution to this, I also don't see how you can justify pilots who had close to 20 years with the company being put below others with only 2. I agree with the relative seniority principle but I can't abide putting the substantial number of east pilots who were hired in the 1980's below west pilots who were hired in the last 2 years simply because they were furloughed on the date that AWA/USAirways completed their transaction (by the time of the arbitration, most if not all of those pilots had been recalled).

Now, lets talk about ALPA's part in this process. I'll say it again so that maybe this time you will read what I wrote, think about it and respond thoughtfully. This has been a flawed process and I need no other proof other than this outcome. There is a very real possibility that the pilots could bring the whole airline down. We have gone from one large group of angry, disenfranchised pilots to another large group of angry disenfranchised pilots and I really don't see anyone coming out of this better off. The process was an ALPA process. Did the pilots (or perhaps more accurately the negotiators) from the east overreach during mediation? Probably. Are the rank and file from the east necessarily responsible for that? I would say that's a pretty harsh judgement if you think so. Has there been the slightest acknowledgement from anyone out west that perhaps this group of formerly furloughed pilots got screwed? Not that I have seen.

This was an ALPA process, an ALPA award and it doesn't seem that ALPA was too inclined to try to fix any of the problems (at least ALPA National or ALPA - AWA). Pakeha-boy, I challenge you to read my post, think about it and respond with something more than the angry rhetoric that seems to be all too prevalent on these boards. I don't expect you to agree with me but I would like to see my points responded to in detail because quite frankly, you and others like you have done more to convince me that you are part of the problem than any arbitrators decision could have.

Gillegan...

you make too much sense, as always.

The best campaign for the independent union was actually conducted by ALPA themselves, with our dues money, ironic at best.

Now, if you think Kiwi boy here with his rants is a bit intense, man, you should see what is going on under the watchful eyes of ALPA at the national forum; nothing short of 4 letter words and swinging baseball bats... all in line with ALPA's ethical code of conduct.... ha ha ha ha ha

Let the furloughs begin; I will be one of the first...

Hey SF, are you an E-190 Captain yet? Listen to my advice this time. Get into the left seat of that thing if you can. At least then you'll have options if it doesn't work out with the airline.

Lots of doomsday rhetoric, but honestly I don't see the union issues as being a problem in the short term. Cost of fuel and a faltering economy will be a much bigger drag on the company.

The USAPA victory is a very good thing for the East pilots. Every day that they can delay the implemenation of the NIC award is a victory. Guys will get the attrition based advancement that is rightfully theirs. Management will place new aircraft in the East as their costs are lower. That is what will finally force the West to come back to the bargaining table as they stagnate with low attrition and no growth.

Typhoonpilot


P.S. Pakeha Boy: Calling people scabs who have not crossed a union picket line is just plain wrong. You, of all people, should know the history of a small group of AWA pilots in Australia. Do you call them that when you fly with them?

This is pretty short-sighted thinking, IMHO. The market is immensely challenging right now, based on fuel costs and economics; delaying the inevitable and costing the company shedloads of money cannot be good. Maybe new aircraft would eventually move East, but that is a long ways away presently. Hated as the arbitration agreement is, it will form the basis of any new USAPA agreement, simply as the agreement has to start somewhere. They cannot force their (East) seniority idea down the company's and the West's guys without taking the whole enterprise down. But, then again, the East was, years ago (1985), as a bunch of UMW coal miners. That from a ALPA National guy, who had his own elitist ideas of the profession.

PS: If you think this story will end in tears, wait 'til you see DL/NW merger. The DL ALPA MEC and management seems to have written off the NW guys entirely. DL bought off their pilots and hope to co-opt or just ignore the NW guys. And, let me tell you, NW pilots will not back down on their threats of stopping the merger. NW will strike at anything-Cobra Airlines.

By this you must mean the USAir-PSA date-of-hire seniority integration, or perhaps the USAir-Piedmont date-of-hire seniority integration, possibly even the USAir-Trump Shuttle seniority integration where the Trump guys brought their Eastern date-of-hire to the table and were actually given partial credit for it?

Or perhaps you are referring to the very generous jumpseat policy that USAir and Piedmont used to have? This prior to DAL or AA ever giving offline jumpseats to anybody.

Yeah, those USAir guys always trying to screw somebody :rolleyes:


TP

Pahek-boy said:
You never did publically replay to johnnyramjet's question about the fact that your AWA compatriots are the real scabs from their Ansett shame. I guess there really is no answer when you fly around with real scabs (like AWA employs,) yet try to call a group of verifyably scab-free pilots (USAirways east) a name that does not apply to them.

The scab group is yours. Enjoy USAPA, BTW. We're really looking forward to some house cleaning!

Uh-oh, this could get nasty, now!!

Nasty? I am jolly well looking forward to doing the "clock cleaning" that the AWA pilots have been threatening for months.

Bring it on, scab-loving westies, and bring a boatload of your own money because it's going down the litigation tubes really, really fast.

Nasty AND expensive. Bring on the lawyers, that'll teach 'em. This will end in tears with unemployed pilots, bankruptcy and more tears.

GF

US Air might have been generous in the past but those days are long gone Typoon. US Air has become a very self centered, me first, pull up the rope I got mine and various other phrases in the last 7 years.
ALPA should have left US Air long ago for everything US Air has done to the pilot profession. ALPA is remiss because they did not stop US Air from the pay cuts, work rule concessions and voting to get rid of the pensions but once US Air pilots voted to do what they did ALPA should have sent them on their way the next day.
Even today they should be under one contract, one senority list and one team. If not, it does enter the arguement of that four letter word that we are not aloud to say on this forum about pilots that cross picket lines. US Air needs to get on board. Just because they did not like the outcome is no reason to quash the airline.

You guys need to get your facts straight. The USAir pilots were never given the option of voting to terminate their pension. Management held a gun to the MEC's head and they blinked. Oh yeah, that was an ALPA MEC.

Cerbus said:

Cerbus you don't have the first clue as to what you are talking about. Every one of those concessions was done under the signature of the national ALPA president. Woerth could have stopped it at any time just by refusing to sign, and that's why USAPA exists today. And that's why ALPA is now on the slippery slope to oblivion.

Paheka -

I suggest you go buy lots of lube and bend WAY over. I hear it's abit easier that way.

I'm a very outside observer, with way more experience at this than I want, but PilotUSA; you are way over the top. To wit:

As, I assume, an East pilot, what exactly are you going to give the West guys that they need lube and bending over? If it is your lousy contract and seniority merge, how are you going to force on them? Is complete self-destruction going to improve your lot? I don't think so.

Like two armed men in a liferaft, one shoots a hole in it, so the other does too, just to show who's boss. And ALPA wonders how they got into this position.

GF

GF -

I agree. I AM way over the top with my comments. But you must know that since last June the AWA pilots have been threatening all kinds of scenarios and consistently calling us scabs. I realize that name-calling is juvenile, especially when it is done by people who are so ignoratn that they don't even KNOW what a scab is. There is not ONE pilot on the USairways east seniority list that has performed struck work. Ever. I don't know of any other pilot group in the US that can say that. In particular, AWA employs Ansett scabs among their ranks, yet those guys have the gall to use that word toward us.

It's enough to piss me off! (American slang, not British.) While I am sure that calmer heads will actually prevail within the USAPA structure, I've had about enough of those west weenies name calling. They're a bunch of losers and have been since they turned their first prop in 1983. Now that they've lost yet again, they call us scabs. Personally, I hope when the dust settles they continue to be f****d as they have been since their loser company started.

(But I'm not bitter...;))

Gillegan,

Naw bro that was your RC4!! You had every opportunity to deal with them in a manner fitting and like most pilots many of you chose to just fly your trips and go home. Now this will end in disaster and the only one to blame is yourselves!!!

Quote Gillegan...."You guys need to get your facts straight. The USAir pilots were never given the option of voting to terminate their pension. Management held a gun to the MEC's head and they blinked. Oh yeah, that was an ALPA MEC."

let me see......so the solution is to screw the whole airline on past mistakes that have nothing to do with the AWA PILOTS or the current merged airline...........it may have been an ALPA mec ...but they were USAir (east) pilots....

by the way...cant wait to hear how USAPA handles the latest Rwy excursion by an east crew....good start for the 1st day on the job

You want to hear the best part about that? A west crew just sat and watched it happening and said nothing. This is just how much we have come to dislike them!! Disaster is just around the next bend.

I've never advocated "screwing" the AWA pilots. We obviously have a difference of opinion and I can understand that for you, it hits a little close to home. You do make a point that the rank and file do have some responsibility for the loss of their pension - they did elect their representatives but some seem to think that the USAirways pilots brought nothing to the table. If that was the case, I don't see why the airlines were merged in the first place.

Trial by fire. Another good point. Are they going to be a one issue union or will they assume the full mantle of responsibility (I'm just as interested as you to the answer to that question.)


I'm sorry but that is just unprofessional. If we are going to let tangential issues get in the way of flight safety, then we don't deserve to be called the professionals that we claim to be. That you would actually cite this as an example to be followed is just plain sad.

US AIr
 

Don't forget about US Air and what they did to their own much less to the industry. In the 90's they furloughed over 300 pilots because the pilot group would not take a reduction in pay of two hours a month. Criminal!
This last round of concessions while US Air has over 2000 pilots on the street they voted to fly over 90 hours a month. Yes you read that right with 2000 pilots out of work the greedy bast@#$ are flying over 90 hours in a month.
They also voted to take away a retired pilots pension. The retired pilot had no vote in the matter but after working all is career and counting on his monthly check they took it away from him. Just for good measure they made him pay his medical now also. What a deal and the US Air pilots gave all of them this.
So when US Air says they are all about equality they can shove it where the sun don't shine. And let's remember how many other airlines voted to give up their pensions because of US Air. If ALPA had the ba#$@ and droped US AIr before this mess it would have been better for the industry without question. I know Duanye Worthless signed it but he should have had the foresight to stop the onslaught before it spread to other airlines. Now look what we got.
Jsut for good measure everyone knows you don't have to be that four letter word that is banned on this forum by just crossing a picket line. You can also be one by working for less than industry standard rates and also by taking someone elses job. US AIr qualifies under the terms on both accounts, no doubt. Get with the program Use Less Air.
Instead of worry about ALPA and what they did maybe you should be worrying about what you can do about the piece of !!!!te contract you are working under and work forward. ALPA is in the past. Start raising your standards now!

Gilligan said,

I'm sorry but that is just unprofessional. If we are going to let tangential issues get in the way of flight safety, then we don't deserve to be called the professionals that we claim to be. That you would actually cite this as an example to be followed is just plain sad.

Well to that I only offer this. Your east buddies are the ones who chose this path! I see Tim has resorted to keep his mouth shut on this issue and rightly so. The thought of begging to go to arbitration getting that then not honoring their end of the deal! ALL this garbage about "we have all this seniority" no they didn't what they had was longevity but no seniority which is why a guy with 18yr in at old usair was at the very bottom of the list and why folks with 17yrs were furloughed!!!

Unprofessional? Yup that's right we are just giving back what we received from them, total disrespect!!!