As a former USAir pilot, I watched this with interest. About the only argument that I heard from the pro-ALPA side was that an independent union was incapable of providing the support that a national union could, forgetting that there are some very successful independent pilot unions (SWAPA, APA, UPS). Not once did I hear any acknowledgement of the very visible mistakes that ALPA had made over the years (pensions, B-scales, crossing of other unions picket lines and the general fall of U.S. pilots from the highest paid to some of the lowest in the world, etc.) or that some kinds of change might be appropriate. Add to that a large enough number of pilots who thought that they really had nothing left to lose and the result is not surprising at all. While I question whether USAPA has a legal leg to stand on regarding overturning the arbitration, there is a large enough number of pilots from the east that don't have much else to lose by giving it a try that they were able to de-certify the union. This in itself is a prime example of mismanagement of the process by ALPA national (and ALPA USAirways).

On this and other forums, I have heard more angry and sometimes incomprehensible rants from the AWA pilots than from the east side. While I acknowledge the argument that the arbitration was agreed to and binding, I have never once heard an AWA pilot acknowledge that a large number of east pilots might have been unfairly disadvantaged by being put below west pilots who had less than 2 years with the company or who were not even out of grammar school when those east pilots were hired. By not addressing that issue, whether they legally had to or not, they helped to achieve this outcome.

Regarding the west pilots not contributing to the new union; I'm no expert but I believe that laws exist (or it just might be contractual language - I'm not sure) that require even pilots who choose not to join the union to contribute some amount for the administration of their contract or face termination.

Whatever the outcome, I don't think that anyone will disagree that this has been a complete mess - and it's a mess that certainly started with ALPA.

QED

That's my point. About all I've heard from the AWA side is that they agreed to binding arbitration, they lost and tough. After that it degenerates into rants like the above. I don't dispute the problems with trying to overturn the award and in fact, USAPA seems to have embraced the all or nothing stance which may see them worse off in the long run. What I have not seen anyone acknowledge is that IMHO, some very junior FO's at AWA received a windfall. I've read the award and while I would never advocate that DOH was a fair solution to this, I also don't see how you can justify pilots who had close to 20 years with the company being put below others with only 2. I agree with the relative seniority principle but I can't abide putting the substantial number of east pilots who were hired in the 1980's below west pilots who were hired in the last 2 years simply because they were furloughed on the date that AWA/USAirways completed their transaction (by the time of the arbitration, most if not all of those pilots had been recalled).

Now, lets talk about ALPA's part in this process. I'll say it again so that maybe this time you will read what I wrote, think about it and respond thoughtfully. This has been a flawed process and I need no other proof other than this outcome. There is a very real possibility that the pilots could bring the whole airline down. We have gone from one large group of angry, disenfranchised pilots to another large group of angry disenfranchised pilots and I really don't see anyone coming out of this better off. The process was an ALPA process. Did the pilots (or perhaps more accurately the negotiators) from the east overreach during mediation? Probably. Are the rank and file from the east necessarily responsible for that? I would say that's a pretty harsh judgement if you think so. Has there been the slightest acknowledgement from anyone out west that perhaps this group of formerly furloughed pilots got screwed? Not that I have seen.

This was an ALPA process, an ALPA award and it doesn't seem that ALPA was too inclined to try to fix any of the problems (at least ALPA National or ALPA - AWA). Pakeha-boy, I challenge you to read my post, think about it and respond with something more than the angry rhetoric that seems to be all too prevalent on these boards. I don't expect you to agree with me but I would like to see my points responded to in detail because quite frankly, you and others like you have done more to convince me that you are part of the problem than any arbitrators decision could have.

Gillegan...

you make too much sense, as always.

The best campaign for the independent union was actually conducted by ALPA themselves, with our dues money, ironic at best.

Now, if you think Kiwi boy here with his rants is a bit intense, man, you should see what is going on under the watchful eyes of ALPA at the national forum; nothing short of 4 letter words and swinging baseball bats... all in line with ALPA's ethical code of conduct.... ha ha ha ha ha

Let the furloughs begin; I will be one of the first...

Hey SF, are you an E-190 Captain yet? Listen to my advice this time. Get into the left seat of that thing if you can. At least then you'll have options if it doesn't work out with the airline.

Lots of doomsday rhetoric, but honestly I don't see the union issues as being a problem in the short term. Cost of fuel and a faltering economy will be a much bigger drag on the company.

The USAPA victory is a very good thing for the East pilots. Every day that they can delay the implemenation of the NIC award is a victory. Guys will get the attrition based advancement that is rightfully theirs. Management will place new aircraft in the East as their costs are lower. That is what will finally force the West to come back to the bargaining table as they stagnate with low attrition and no growth.

Typhoonpilot


P.S. Pakeha Boy: Calling people scabs who have not crossed a union picket line is just plain wrong. You, of all people, should know the history of a small group of AWA pilots in Australia. Do you call them that when you fly with them?

This is pretty short-sighted thinking, IMHO. The market is immensely challenging right now, based on fuel costs and economics; delaying the inevitable and costing the company shedloads of money cannot be good. Maybe new aircraft would eventually move East, but that is a long ways away presently. Hated as the arbitration agreement is, it will form the basis of any new USAPA agreement, simply as the agreement has to start somewhere. They cannot force their (East) seniority idea down the company's and the West's guys without taking the whole enterprise down. But, then again, the East was, years ago (1985), as a bunch of UMW coal miners. That from a ALPA National guy, who had his own elitist ideas of the profession.

PS: If you think this story will end in tears, wait 'til you see DL/NW merger. The DL ALPA MEC and management seems to have written off the NW guys entirely. DL bought off their pilots and hope to co-opt or just ignore the NW guys. And, let me tell you, NW pilots will not back down on their threats of stopping the merger. NW will strike at anything-Cobra Airlines.

By this you must mean the USAir-PSA date-of-hire seniority integration, or perhaps the USAir-Piedmont date-of-hire seniority integration, possibly even the USAir-Trump Shuttle seniority integration where the Trump guys brought their Eastern date-of-hire to the table and were actually given partial credit for it?

Or perhaps you are referring to the very generous jumpseat policy that USAir and Piedmont used to have? This prior to DAL or AA ever giving offline jumpseats to anybody.

Yeah, those USAir guys always trying to screw somebody :rolleyes:


TP

Pahek-boy said:
You never did publically replay to johnnyramjet's question about the fact that your AWA compatriots are the real scabs from their Ansett shame. I guess there really is no answer when you fly around with real scabs (like AWA employs,) yet try to call a group of verifyably scab-free pilots (USAirways east) a name that does not apply to them.

The scab group is yours. Enjoy USAPA, BTW. We're really looking forward to some house cleaning!

Uh-oh, this could get nasty, now!!

Nasty? I am jolly well looking forward to doing the "clock cleaning" that the AWA pilots have been threatening for months.

Bring it on, scab-loving westies, and bring a boatload of your own money because it's going down the litigation tubes really, really fast.

Nasty AND expensive. Bring on the lawyers, that'll teach 'em. This will end in tears with unemployed pilots, bankruptcy and more tears.

GF

US Air might have been generous in the past but those days are long gone Typoon. US Air has become a very self centered, me first, pull up the rope I got mine and various other phrases in the last 7 years.
ALPA should have left US Air long ago for everything US Air has done to the pilot profession. ALPA is remiss because they did not stop US Air from the pay cuts, work rule concessions and voting to get rid of the pensions but once US Air pilots voted to do what they did ALPA should have sent them on their way the next day.
Even today they should be under one contract, one senority list and one team. If not, it does enter the arguement of that four letter word that we are not aloud to say on this forum about pilots that cross picket lines. US Air needs to get on board. Just because they did not like the outcome is no reason to quash the airline.

You guys need to get your facts straight. The USAir pilots were never given the option of voting to terminate their pension. Management held a gun to the MEC's head and they blinked. Oh yeah, that was an ALPA MEC.

Cerbus said:

Cerbus you don't have the first clue as to what you are talking about. Every one of those concessions was done under the signature of the national ALPA president. Woerth could have stopped it at any time just by refusing to sign, and that's why USAPA exists today. And that's why ALPA is now on the slippery slope to oblivion.

Paheka -

I suggest you go buy lots of lube and bend WAY over. I hear it's abit easier that way.

I'm a very outside observer, with way more experience at this than I want, but PilotUSA; you are way over the top. To wit:

As, I assume, an East pilot, what exactly are you going to give the West guys that they need lube and bending over? If it is your lousy contract and seniority merge, how are you going to force on them? Is complete self-destruction going to improve your lot? I don't think so.

Like two armed men in a liferaft, one shoots a hole in it, so the other does too, just to show who's boss. And ALPA wonders how they got into this position.

GF

GF -

I agree. I AM way over the top with my comments. But you must know that since last June the AWA pilots have been threatening all kinds of scenarios and consistently calling us scabs. I realize that name-calling is juvenile, especially when it is done by people who are so ignoratn that they don't even KNOW what a scab is. There is not ONE pilot on the USairways east seniority list that has performed struck work. Ever. I don't know of any other pilot group in the US that can say that. In particular, AWA employs Ansett scabs among their ranks, yet those guys have the gall to use that word toward us.

It's enough to piss me off! (American slang, not British.) While I am sure that calmer heads will actually prevail within the USAPA structure, I've had about enough of those west weenies name calling. They're a bunch of losers and have been since they turned their first prop in 1983. Now that they've lost yet again, they call us scabs. Personally, I hope when the dust settles they continue to be f****d as they have been since their loser company started.

(But I'm not bitter...;))

Gillegan,

Naw bro that was your RC4!! You had every opportunity to deal with them in a manner fitting and like most pilots many of you chose to just fly your trips and go home. Now this will end in disaster and the only one to blame is yourselves!!!

Quote Gillegan...."You guys need to get your facts straight. The USAir pilots were never given the option of voting to terminate their pension. Management held a gun to the MEC's head and they blinked. Oh yeah, that was an ALPA MEC."

let me see......so the solution is to screw the whole airline on past mistakes that have nothing to do with the AWA PILOTS or the current merged airline...........it may have been an ALPA mec ...but they were USAir (east) pilots....

by the way...cant wait to hear how USAPA handles the latest Rwy excursion by an east crew....good start for the 1st day on the job

You want to hear the best part about that? A west crew just sat and watched it happening and said nothing. This is just how much we have come to dislike them!! Disaster is just around the next bend.

I've never advocated "screwing" the AWA pilots. We obviously have a difference of opinion and I can understand that for you, it hits a little close to home. You do make a point that the rank and file do have some responsibility for the loss of their pension - they did elect their representatives but some seem to think that the USAirways pilots brought nothing to the table. If that was the case, I don't see why the airlines were merged in the first place.

Trial by fire. Another good point. Are they going to be a one issue union or will they assume the full mantle of responsibility (I'm just as interested as you to the answer to that question.)


I'm sorry but that is just unprofessional. If we are going to let tangential issues get in the way of flight safety, then we don't deserve to be called the professionals that we claim to be. That you would actually cite this as an example to be followed is just plain sad.

US AIr
 

Don't forget about US Air and what they did to their own much less to the industry. In the 90's they furloughed over 300 pilots because the pilot group would not take a reduction in pay of two hours a month. Criminal!
This last round of concessions while US Air has over 2000 pilots on the street they voted to fly over 90 hours a month. Yes you read that right with 2000 pilots out of work the greedy bast@#$ are flying over 90 hours in a month.
They also voted to take away a retired pilots pension. The retired pilot had no vote in the matter but after working all is career and counting on his monthly check they took it away from him. Just for good measure they made him pay his medical now also. What a deal and the US Air pilots gave all of them this.
So when US Air says they are all about equality they can shove it where the sun don't shine. And let's remember how many other airlines voted to give up their pensions because of US Air. If ALPA had the ba#$@ and droped US AIr before this mess it would have been better for the industry without question. I know Duanye Worthless signed it but he should have had the foresight to stop the onslaught before it spread to other airlines. Now look what we got.
Jsut for good measure everyone knows you don't have to be that four letter word that is banned on this forum by just crossing a picket line. You can also be one by working for less than industry standard rates and also by taking someone elses job. US AIr qualifies under the terms on both accounts, no doubt. Get with the program Use Less Air.
Instead of worry about ALPA and what they did maybe you should be worrying about what you can do about the piece of !!!!te contract you are working under and work forward. ALPA is in the past. Start raising your standards now!

Gilligan said,

I'm sorry but that is just unprofessional. If we are going to let tangential issues get in the way of flight safety, then we don't deserve to be called the professionals that we claim to be. That you would actually cite this as an example to be followed is just plain sad.

Well to that I only offer this. Your east buddies are the ones who chose this path! I see Tim has resorted to keep his mouth shut on this issue and rightly so. The thought of begging to go to arbitration getting that then not honoring their end of the deal! ALL this garbage about "we have all this seniority" no they didn't what they had was longevity but no seniority which is why a guy with 18yr in at old usair was at the very bottom of the list and why folks with 17yrs were furloughed!!!

Unprofessional? Yup that's right we are just giving back what we received from them, total disrespect!!!

A320PLT said:
Look, there's differences of opinion and there's putting peoples lives at risk! Any pilot who calls themselves professional who is willing to stand by and watch hundreds of peoples lives put at risk and not try to stop it if they could just because they are involved in a dispute with other pilots does not deserve to wear the wings on their uniform. If a USAirways east pilot did that, then I would say the exact same thing. If the incident happened as you describe, then it is pathetic of the crew and it is pathetic that you defend it. Disagree about the facts of our discussion - you made some valid points but I can't say in strong enough terms just how wrong your attitude is about the passengers you and others fly. How would those guys have felt if they sat there and watched snickering while the other aircraft taxied onto the runway and was creamed by another aircraft taking off? How would you have felt? Glad? Elated? Felt like those scum got theirs? How about those innocent people in the back? If you really think that behavior like this is justified - by anything - then you really should do the rest of our profession a favor and find another job.

Gilligan,

The pax were never at risk. The plane taxied into the grass! The only risk was to the brusied ego's of those "NON ROOKIES" You friends get into the press and make bold statements like "America west pilots are rookies" yet none of these rookies taxied into the grass. "America west pilot have far less experience than our seasoned pilots" Yet none of our pilots shot and killed an unarmed A320 at 10,000ft!!

Unprofessional? again your east friends wrote the book on unprofessional!!!

Quick, quick, someone pass 320 a pacifier...

Southflyer,

You got a cherry flavored one???:D

I'm glad that you clarified that and thanks for keeping this somewhat civil. I've never said that the USAirways East pilots were blameless in all this. Statements like that in the press are juvenile to say the least. My point all along has been that this is a mess and it didn't have to happen. If the east pilots held to DOH at the expense of all else during negotiations (on that there seems to be some dispute) then they were being unrealistic. A junior co-pilot at one carrier should not displace a captain at another. To me, the big injustice was stapling all of the pilots who had been furloughed on the day of integration below the most junior FO at AWA as they were mostly back on the property by the actual arbitration. I've never contended that they should have received their DOH, only that they should have been included in the relative slotting formula. Now, if that stapling was required by the guidelines under which the arbitrator had to rule (I don't know if that is the case or not) I would argue that as a flaw in the ALPA merger policy and I would take the USAirways East negotiators to task for not seeing the inevitability of it and avoiding an arbitration at all costs. If that is the case, they would have known the stapling was coming and were willing to sacrifice those junior FO's for the senior. This willingness to sacrifice the junior for the senior has been a problem at AAA for years and is one reason why the de-certification does not surprise me at all.

I also think that the east should have been willing to compromise on the top 500+ slots going to east pilots as a quid-pro-quo to fix the stapling. I am unaware whether any meaningful offers were ever made after the award. What I do see is that both sides are so angry at this point, I doubt that the situation can improve at all.

I am also not convinced that the USAirways pilots (east or west) will be better off with USAPA but I was appalled at ALPA's campaign during the election. The only argument that I saw was that an independent union would be unable to provide the level of support and infrastructure that ALPA would. I saw no acknowledgement of past mistakes or of the great cost of that infrastructure. Before I left USAir, I was active in the union and saw first hand the dysfunction of the MEC and exorbitant pay and lifestyles of the "ALPA Elite".

In short, I saw a possibility for compromise that neither side was willing to consider (pre and post award) with the result that this whole thing stands a very real chance of imploding which is something that will be good for no one. I have seen very little real leadership in this whole mess. To my thinking, the national leadership (sic) should have seen the potential for all this and pulled out all the stops to forge a compromise. Prater should have been at every local meeting on both sides. This has been a huge blow to ALPA and a huge blow to our profession and no one involved is blameless.

You've got me there. Your statement cracks me up.:D

Help me out here Gillegan, didn't Piedmonster staple the Empire guys to the bottom in the '80s. Memory fails me on this, was it Piedmont or UsAir and was it Empire? I just remember a complete staple in the 80s. Karma?

Piedmont, as you well know :ok:, did staple the Empire guys to the bottom of their list. They did it with one caveat though. That caveat was that they maintained their Empire date-of-hire seniority for bidding as long as they stayed on the Fokker 28.

I am sure that the vast majority of USAirways (East) pilots would very willingly accept that they are stapled to the bottom of AWA as long as they maintain their date-of-hire on former USAirways (East) equipment and bases. That would be a far better position than many find themselves in now.

In effect, that is known as a "fence". Fences were the only answer to a fair integration of AWA and USAirways as the disparity between the date-of-hire and attrition rates was too great.

The revisionist history that USAirways (West) pilots are already putting on the integration process is incredible. They repeatedly state that date-of-hire was the East's position. This is not true, it was "length of service". They consistently fail to mention that the East's proposal included a furlough, out of seniority for any returning East pilots for a period of one year after the integration. They repeatedly fail to mention that there were fences to protect the West pilots on their equipment in their bases until the year 2014. A time by which many thousands of East pilots would be gone by mandatory retirement (age 65 was not official when the proposal was made ).

All this revisionist history is occuring and leaving unnoticed that their own proposal was a massive long term seniority grab. Their relative position stance had no provisions in it to account for the vastly different attrition rates between the two carriers. Their argument that the top 500 spots going to East pilots being unfair is ludicrous. Those top 500 guys were all hired before America West even existed. They could all hold international captain positions on the A330, B767, or choice Caribbean flying out of PHL. That and they would all be gone by 2014.



Typhoonpilot

typhoon ...you are so out of whack with this

3200+ east pilots....V,s ..1700+ east pilots...you were always going to win this vote

this is about DOH by the east ...not length of service....at the PHX show,your own USAPA personal stated it is based on DOH....I was there!!!

This is not YOUR airline,this is the "combined " airline....this is the "New USAirways"....we were all hired on the same day......AWA is gone,so is the old USAirways....something you seem to have forgotten

What part about binding arbitration dont you understand.

What people need to know is that the East USAirways pilots agreed to Nicolau conducting the intergration....they understood,East pilots(obviously not) that it would be legal and binding....the west pilots also agreed...when it came out....you (the east pilots) spat the dummy,and reneged on the award

Integrity,is something USAPA does not have....how can anyone trust what you have to say,???.....the next agreement you get into,how can anyone be sure you will abide by it....based upon the latest .....your word is worthless.

I'm leaving this subject alone now as it's too hot. Typhoon has moved to greener pastrures and many others here are following suit. Massive bleeding from DAL, NWA, UAL and I expect that an LCC, UAL marriage is forth coming. I have had just about all f this as I can take.

Blood pressure thru the roof so this subject just ain't worth the bandwith it requires to post and read!!! I refused to go and listen to the mindless Bradford pontifacate about their plans. Oh did I say plans I ment lack of plans beyond attempting DOH which they will never see...

Pacifiers available on all Kool-Aid flavors, just add water....

Quote:

---

this is about DOH by the east ...not length of service....at the PHX show,your own USAPA personal stated it is based on DOH....I was there!!!

---

If you were at the USAPA PHX roadshow pakeha-boy, then you must have also heard Bradford state something to the effect of optimally combining the lists in in a DOH + Fences + Protections methodolgy so that in the foreseeable future no former AWA pilots could be displaced by any US East pilots on their own turf and vice versa. Also, I'm sure Bradford mentioned equipment ordered after the date of the merger would be shared. However, the 'vulgar' sound of the word 'DOH' in your ears, and those of others, may very well have vapor locked your brain, thereby preventing you from processing this important information.

And PB, perhaps you can explain something I am in bewilderment about. Not once have I heard any east pilot state a desire to make a land grab or take away or fill west seats. Not one!! Not true the other way around. So who truly feels entitled? So just how do you feel the easties are "trying to ruin your careers" if USAPA's intent is to utilize fences and protections that protect west pilots!?


An interesting concept, sir. Perhaps we should all align ourselves by DOB like most new hire classes we've all been familiar with. Oh,..wait,... wouldn't that be close to the same results as a 'straight' DOH list. ;)

Furthermore, as someone already pointed out, pilots from East nor West were officially consulted or needed for approval of this merger. So please kindly refrain from the fictitious claim that "the west pilots saved you".

The cold fact of the matter is that, regardless of how close US might have been to liquidation, it was merged/bought as a functioning business. Obviously its franchise was far more valuable intact rather than in pieces or else the latter would have occurred, agree? And had the US Airways franchise (or parts thereof) been purchased under a liquidation sale then I would heartily agree that the east would do well to be anywhere on a list. Such was not the case, thank God.

You have to accept the fact that a 'near miss' is technically not the same as a 'hit', PB. If you can understand this point then it might help lower your blood pressure. I know,... easy to say, hard to do, right?

Personally, I don't understand the part where Mr. Nicolau chose to ignore for list consideration the US-MDA (ERJ-170) pilots and the returning US pilots who were already on the property or had been recalled. If any one deserves to rant louder than you sir, perhaps it is they. I suppose they will have a chance to do so in court, yes?



Finally, regarding the most recent potential UAL-US merger, I know from past experience how unprofessional some UAL pilots can be when faced with a potential merger with US ( I narrowly avoided a ground collision with one who acknowledged ORD GC's instruction to "fall in behind US Air", and not 'liking' the phrase, decided to practically use TOGA to cut me off ).

But if you think they are going to welcome 5-10 yr longevity Capts into their 'big iron' flight decks on the basis of a relative position merger using the Nicolau list, then I have some land in New Orleans I'd like to sell you, my friend. Time will tell, but if the 'undesirable-to-both-sides' happens I would think DOH + Fences + Protections might even be more appealing to them also.

I never met a person from the land of 'down-under' (and vicinity) I didn't like. Look forward to the day we can split a pint, my friend.

85Speedbird

Let us not forget US Air would have been out of business if not for the federal government twice bailing out US Air. Twice the government let US Air not pay back the loan repayment. At the time there were numerous pilots furloughed and our governement let US Air stay in business. Now this is how Us Air pilots repay the industry? Get real Us Air and grow up.

Well, the ATSB guaranteed loans to AW to the tune of $429 million and USAir was guaranteed $900 million, according to the website. No word on repayment or "forgiveness" and, thus putting the taxpayer on the hook. Suffice to say, every airline, save AA, has been "bailed out" in one form or another. "Bail" is ATSB loans, Chap 11 filings that never end, foreign route awards that clearly favored one airline over another-think Pan Am getting NO route authority from new US cities. Nobody in the industry can claim to be glory as free market heroes. Oops, sorry, SWA.

GF

I forget the exact dates of the foregiveness but one date was around Jan of 2004 and the other was two or three months later. This should never should have happened. Bush claims to be a free marketeer and he lets bankrupt companies stay in business and ruin the other airlines in the process. When PAA and EAL go out of business there is no reason why US Air should have been allowed to stay in business. I am not advocating anything sinister but just to let the market play out naturally.
What does it say about the pension issue. How much did US Air put on the taxpayers for voting to give up their pension? $2 Billion, $3 Billion and did they ever pay back the US government. I think no is the answer. So they never paid back the money and then they dump untold amount of money on the taxpayers. What a deal for us!

The quasi government PBGC took over the Pension Fund while the pension still had $1.7 Billion in it. This was at the absolute nadir of the stock market. Had the pension been left alone and just had normal company contributions it would most likely have returned to being fully funded. The PBGC has probably done pretty well with that $1.7 Billion and since they only have to pay out pennys on the dollar I'm guessing that the U.S. taxpayer has actually saved money because of the USAirways pension. You see, the PBGC also has other companies pensions that they are paying from, many nowhere near as well funded as the USAirways pension was. They could easily be using some of the $1.7 Billion plus to pay current obligations that they previously didn't have money for.

You might do a little more homework and ask ( or should I say ask, ask, and ask :E ) some questions before spouting off rubbish like you are here.


Typhoonpilot

So Typhoon why did you vote to give it up and not just let it ride out the storm? You did a huge disservice to the industry and you know it. Stop trying to protect US AIr and own up to your actions.
I am sure even with the $1.7 B the PBCG got from you they will more than pay out over 40 plus years to the 5000 pilots even if it is only $3000 a month/pilot at a time.

I guess that if you say it enough that might make it true. The USAirways pilots were not given the choice by their MEC on whether to give up their pension or not. The company came in one night, told them that without the pilots giving up the pension they would liquidate the company on the next day (file Chapter 7) and that they would not allow pilot ratification of the decision (which I believe the AAA MEC policy required). The (ALPA) MEC blinked and we are now where we are. Should the MEC have called Siegel's bluff? It's open to debate. I personally think that they should have but the calculation was that if the Chapter 7 threat was legitimate (and ALPA National's advisers thought that it was) that the USAirways pilots would be out of jobs and still have no pension. With termination of the pension, the jobs would be there with at least the hope of restoring some type of retirement.

Now, did the termination of the USAirways pilots pensions open the floodgates to similar actions at other carriers? Probably but don't fool yourself that others wouldn't have tried if they hadn't succeeded at USAirways. There is certainly responsibility there but I just don't see that it was the rank and file pilots at USAirways. My feeling is that it would have been defeated in a vote of the rank and file. If there is responsibility, it is on that (ALPA) MEC that blinked and the ALPA National economic advisers that counselled them to do so and on Duane Woerth who had the authority to refuse to sign the agreement.

Do I detect a trend here?

Gillegan is 100% correct. Just to add to what he said, the MEC did not allow the pilots to vote on ANY of the concessionary votes during the 911 bankruptcy period. The first vote gave us a 43% pay cut, the next changed the reserve rules, I think but am not sure that there was one regarding medical insurance and finally the pension termination. We were not allowed to vote on any of these!

And then in pure ALPA bull***t, instead of taking his 43% paycut, our MEC chairman (name removed) was given a job by (name removed) to a non elected executive for ALPA with a raise over his original salary. The man has no guts but he does have HUGE balls!


cerbus, 3000 a month X 5000 pilots is 15 million a month X 12 months is 180 million a year. 1.7 billion at 5%interest compounded over 40 years is 11.97 billion. The 1.7 billion will run out in about year. Obviously there are not 5000pilots collecting now but the 1.7 will run out in about year 22. We are now in year 5. That means the taxpayer will start to foot the bill in 17 more years.

We did want to ride out the storm and the MEC knew this. That is why they did not put this out to a vote. I am the last person to "protect" usair. It was a crap company then and even more now. But you are making a huge mistake if you think the pilots were to blame. The blame lies with the MEC, the courts and the justice department of the Bush administration.

I am not sure what actions you think we should own up to. The fact that some of us are here means we quit there! Is that owning up enough for you? Some of us thought U was going out of business, and some thought they could not work any longer at such a currupt company. Adding the absolute corruption of ALPA and it is even worse. We voted with our feet.

330 man

Only if you are lucky (and over - I think - age 50 at the time of pension liquidation). I was neither, so it's $1394.80 for - hopefully - a long time. I voted with my feet (and middle finger) as well, so I'm currently drawing the money, and have been for over two years.

Sorry - he has neither guts nor balls. He is, however, shameless enough to send me monthly letters asking for dues money I allegedly owe. I hope he holds his breath while waiting for the check.

It sounds like this will all be a mute point by late this year. David Boyd of the Colorado consulant group says US Air will be bankrupt by early fall and out of the industry by Christmas. Read his report on his website but without the international routes and low morale there is not much hope for US Air.