CMD on ATR something for the future
 

Hello everyone!

Since 2020 I am flying as F/O on ATR42/72 (TFT 1600h) and my company offered me now an upgrade to CMD starting the end of the next month with a bond of two years.
I am really happy with the airline (2 weeks on 2 off, best salary for TP operation, based in my hometown)
Of course I am very happy about the trust and looking forward to this opportunity.
But I always wanted to fly a jet. Should I go for the upgrade for another few years or should I look for a new adventure on a new type?

It is clear to me there is no definite answer to this question and that I will have to do the decision on my own at the end, but I wanted to hear some different opinions about this “problem”.
​​​​​​​Or maybe someone experienced a similar situation?

Take the upgrade. You will most likely not get a job as a Jet captain from a ATR FO position. Moving to the right seat of a jet is a more sideways move. Being a captain is more important for your career than being a jet copilot. I have taken the upgrade over the move 3 times sofar, and have been a captain for most of my time. The last 9 years captain on the A320. About to start over in a new company soon, probably. But because of my experience, should have no problem with a fast upgrade. Just my opinion.

It really depends where you want to end up in your career - but I'd have to disagree with the above poster.

The market job market is as good as I can remember right now. Who knows how long it will remain that way. If you want to earn more money and fly jets, go and do it.

'Better to be at the bottom of a ladder you want to climb, than half way up one that you don't'.

A Captain can be employed as an F/O.

An F/O cannot be employed as a Captain.

I would go for the ATR command, which will give you more options and more employability in the long run. In future job applications; airlines will see that you have passed a command course which makes you much more valuable to them than an F/O with unknown command ability, since they know you will pass another command course when the time comes. And since you are happy in your current job, aircraft type, and company, I would stay there for now.

(Some) big shiny jets are great, but not all airlines who fly them are. And you would have to give up your current roster and company, and probably have to fly very different roster patterns and Ts & Cs, which might be a backward step in terms of your work / life balance and overall happiness and quality of life.

If you go the jet F/O route now, it could be a long time before you get anywhere near a command course.

TBH ,
If you are happy and young enough not to worry I’d do a couple of years left seat for the fun .

But I completely disagree with some of the above posters . Command time on an ATR is worthless for anything bigger - you won’t get DEC and if you do join a jet operator as a FO you’ll have to wait your turn like everyone else .

Besringbin mind as well a decent jet FO job will pay about same as ATR captain or more . Too long on TPs and you won’t reach high salaries - all depends if jets are your final aim

If your goal is to be a TP captain then congratulations, you've almost made it!

If your goal is to fly jets then TP command time isn't likely to help you. You need to get into a jet.

How much is the bond? You could always take the command and bank the extra salary. If a jet job comes up then buy yourself out. Getting a job lined up, passing selection and working notice will all take months.

The only reason why you would not start the upgrade, is if you passed selections for a right seat on a jet.

As long as you didn’t pass selections, take any opportunity you can because there is no certain future in aviation. You certainly don’t want to be stuck right seat ATR.

If I were you I would already have applications out for jet jobs.

If COVID taught me one thing it was A320 and B737 type was a ticket to an interview. TP hours were useless. I had more hours than a mate of mine. When the music stopped for both of us his jet hours got him an interview at a cargo operator within a couple of months.

Took me 2 years to get back in the flight deck.

I would get onto a jet ASAP. I hate to be crude, but an ATR is a waste of time. Few, if anyone, will give you command on a jet if coming from an ATR.

Of course if you wish to stay local for family reasons, that's a different story. Career wise though, get off the ATR. A bunch of ATR captains joined our airline recently, all as F/O. Command not before 2 yrs minimum.

Walk before you run.
You may think you know about TP ops but there is lots to learn when you move seats.
Take that experience, take the command.

It's all about life work balance, who cares how you are propulsed...?

What's going to give you the best lifestyle? 2 weeks on 2 weeks off or 5 or 6 on, 2 or 3 off, 0300 starts and 0300 finishes, living away from home?

What will give you the best workstyle? The tedium of boring straight holes through Europe or over the Atlantic will soon become apparent.

I'd suggest, and I have done it, that TP work is more fun and satisfying than 4 or 5 hours watching the autopilot fly between ILS's...and then you get 2 weeks off to boot. I know what I'd rather do.

A jet is just a prop with a cowling around it.

Depending on where the operation is, the ATR flying is also ILS to ILS, led by autopilot. Even remote fields in europe these days are ILS equipped. If not, they have an RNP or VOR approach, which you'll fly in an LNAV overlay. I found the biggest fallacy with TP pilots is they tell themselves they are the best .. "because of the type of flying". When in reality it is Manchester/Dublin/Cork runs to Edinburgh/Exeter/Bristol .. ILS to ILS.

I have flown it and a jet, and the latter is far more challenging. There are solid reasons why you can walk from the LHS of a 737 into the LHS of an ATR, but the opposite is near impossible.

Very few TP jobs out there are actually the bush flying variety that many would have you believe it is. An ATR is not a King Air and neither are you flying among African jungles.

Ultimately, I would say what is your priority. If you've a family and want to be local, stay. If not and you want to spread your wings, the sooner you leave the prop job, the better.

But given there are many FO jet jobs that, in the UK at least, make substantially more than the total flight deck salary of some UK turboprops, the glamour of flying a turboprop soon wears off…

If you’re that much in need of flying fulfilment just use some of the extra £100K you make sitting in the left seat of a jet vs a turboprop to rent a PA28.

I agree with some of the replies above. Would left seat ATR be more fun? 100% For a few years great. But you need to absolutely okay in your mind with the impact it’ll have on your future earnings. Delay it 3/4 years and that’s 3/4 years not spent as a training captain making a decent wedge, as that’s where the delay will hit.

Yeah maybe you'll do an ILS but not after 4 or 5 hours of tedium and banal chit chat and just because it's there doesn't mean you have to use it. There are a lot more TPs doing visuals than there are jet gods in their challenging machines at most of the airports i frequent.

I wouldn't be so arrogant to tell someone how they "will" fly in to an airport by the way especially if you find flying your one jet challenging.

What glamour?!

And it's not always about money, although I can see what motivates you.

An excellent example of a strawman argument. I never said it was challenging, rather to all the people insisting that TP flying is the best thing since sliced bread in how it develops you, I said well a jet is far more challenging if that's what you want to talk about. In actual fact I'd say the ATR was a doddle. It felt no different from the MEP I flew before. Hence why I laugh when people talk about how TP flying seemingly enables one to go to the moon.

Great try though.

You wanna speak about arrogance, just look at how you get personal with other posters, making drastic assumptions about them. Get off your high horse mate.

Nobody has suggested such a thing about TP flying and yet you yell strawman. :D

Drastic?! Give your head a wobble.

When all one poster posts about is money then it's suggestive of their motivation. Nothing personal, it's an observation.

Nice try though.

Stop thinking this is an A vs B decision. It’s not. A is offered, B is not (yet - hopefully)

There is no such thing as a discussion about "best". You apply for a jet RHS, you will get into a training environment that provides the necessary tools to allow you to pass training, whatever the background.

It's about letting go of an opportunity because you basically "dream" of a position. Don't dream, take the real chance and continue to chase what you want. There is no such thing as certainty in aviation. You will learn something in the left seat, it's an experience. It doesn't stop you from chasing a RHS on a jet. Do both. The company needs to seat to be filled. There is no reason not to take the opportunity. I've known plenty of people who took command upgrade on a jet, and left within a year for a better company. It's all about opportunities and take them when they show up. So far, the RHS jet opportunity is not reality, so take the other one. But don't stop. And if you need to leave the LHS within a year, so be it.

I had a same kind of choice to make some time ago, when I was an experienced ATR FO. In my company we had both ATRs and jets, and my options were to either become an ATR commander or to fly a jet as an FO. Of course I would be able to apply for ATR LHS later even if I chose jets, which made my decision easier. I chose the jet and I do not regret it, even though I did find the ATR more enjoyable to fly. In my view, flying a jet has given me a lot of new and valuable professional experience, from which I can draw from when (and if) I later became an ATR commander. When I was an ATR FO, I noted that ATR captains with only ATR experience often lacked "airmanship" and the ability to see the "big picture", but captains with jet experience (even with less TT) usually had more confidence and better airmanship in general. If I were be in the same position as the thread's starter, I would of course take the "free" command upgrade, especially if the terms and conditions are good, but in my honest opinion, having both turboprop and jet experience makes you a better pilot and a captain.

You, specifically, knocked the jet flying in favour of the TP, arguing it was "burning holes ILS to ILS" or whatever drivel. So, I suggest you go research what a strawman argument is.

As for the other one, the OP has asked what was best for career development. A discussion on career advancement, without speaking about financial considerations, is a bit like a bar with no alcohol. How does that mean that's all the person is motivated by?? It is indeed a drastic conclusion to come to. Good grief.

I upgraded on a jet after eleven months with the company. I bypassed a lot of people that didn't have command experience. I was a TP captain for a few years before. So, according to my sample of 1, it does help to take command.

Actually your original premise was that people are specifically stating that TP flying is the best thing since sliced bread. Nobody has said that. I'm sure if it was there you'd be able to quote it...so indeed why don't you take your own advice.

And who said that was "all" that poster was motivated by?

Unfortunately everyone will have a different opinion on this. Some people get lucky and get a quick upgrade, other don't. It all boils down to which (jet) airline you eventually end up at, if they need people at the time and what their upgrade process is. If the upgrade requirement is 5000tt and 2000h on aircraft above 50t then all the ATR PIC time in the world isn't going to get you upgraded.

TP and Jet flying are challenging and rewarding in different ways. Neither is easier despite what some posters say - the destinations you fly to and the weather which prevails along the route has a greater effect on the challenge that flight offers than any difference in aircraft type.

When choosing between two airlines, always go for the airline which has the most robust balance sheet and the best financial performance.

Your PIC time and experience can never be taken away again.
It changes your perspective.

If you are based in your hometown and you are happy with the salary and conditions stay there. Personal life is also important. There is a big chance to find your self in a place you don't like, can't set up your personal life and wish you had stayed back but you won't be able to go back.
​​​​​​​The best airplane is the one which allows you to have a happy life

How would you know? Not every jet job is as soul destroying as Jet2.

Being paid to see the world is a huge lifestyle bonus that you won’t find on an ATR.

Whether it's considered a bonus or not is purely subjective.

Hello 😉,

A few points you have to look at. A few posters mentioned it.

- What is your family life like?
- Where will I be based when I change companies?
- When based elsewhere, is it commutable?
- 2 on 2 off holy or not? Or can you do also 3 weeks on 2 weeks off?
- What do you want to achieve in your career? You mentioned, you want to fly Jets at one point.
How many hours have you flown the ATR now? If you have a few 1000 on it, and your dream is to fly jets, then NOW is the time to do it, as the market is pretty good. If the times are bad and you want to make a change, your TP hrs are useless.
- We all know that seniority is holy in this business, meaning, the sooner you start higher up, the sooner you get to the position you want to be in.

Tbh, I think it is time to move on to jets. If you are lucky, you could be for instance in the company where I fly Heavy Jets become a Cpt in about 7 years.
T&Cs are maybe not the best in the Market, but it gives you Heavy hrs.

Once you Become a Cpt. On Heavy and do that for instance 5 years, it is easier to move back to Short Haul then the opposite around.

All in all, in about 10 to 12 years, You can go any direction.

Staying that time TP Brings you to TP.
Going to Jet brings you many more options.

I know of so many TP Guys, Cpts etc.. They got stuck on the TP for many years.

With Heavy Jet experience many more doors will open up.

I do miss flying Short Medium Haul, but I do not miss the 4 leg days 5 hr block for 11 hr duty or descretion 12 hours.

Long Haul gives you the opportunity to see more of the world. Flying just 1 leg over the Ocean is very relaxed.

Just my point of view.

Good luck and let us know what you decided to do.

Hello,

Thank you for all your answers.

Of course I will take the offer as CMD because I don’t have any other good choice at the moment.
For now my plan is to focus on the training (SIM, Line Training) which will start soon.
It doesn’t change my plan to fly jet and long haul. As soon everything is done and I get used to fly on the left, I will start applying for a jet position.
In my opinion it’s a great experience to take the command. As I said, I have only 1600h in my logbook and I am still young (around 30). Maybe it doesn’t help me to get a command position on a jet but for sure I will grow from it and hopefully it will help me to get on a jet as FO next year.