what he said

Yes I said people will justify what they are doing (MY SELF INCLUDED) so not sure really what’s ironic about that but stick 100% to my OPINION which is based on my personal experience and that of others I know. Of course you will have individual circumstances but am talking in majority numbers not minority.

Pre Covid I would have to say the best gig was probably Virgin 787 , few of my mates had very nice lifestyles. They did only 750hrs max , which mixed with the engine problems meant around 3 trips per month. Whilst I was being hammered on the BA 777.
Virgin now looks awful , with uncertainty thrown in I would avoid. BA is very dull , many think LH is the saving grace after 5 years on SH . Unions have remained strong though so still clinging on to some heavy crews for trips that could be 2 man. But I’m sure that will change !
Best place to be ??
I have a young family , and want a stress free regional base . A job that pays very well and is secure. So I went to Jet2 .
If you are a young buck and want to see the world then obviously LH is the way . BA is probably good if you are young , BUT be prepared for lots of changes in the coming years I think. Your T&Cs are not set in stone

Rara9, I believe the thread is about European airlines, not UK only 😉
If we look at terms/benefits/working conditions, I'm sorry to say this but I wouldn't put any UK airlines amongst the best.
When pre-covid guys were leaving BA to go to a lowcost (easyjet, jet2...) that says a lot. Nor can you compare Virgin (or Jet2) to the big European Legacies (pre-covid or not).
My pick: AF, KLM, Lufthansa (provided you're at Lufthansa and not their Eurowings/discover lowcost)

AF would be ideal

Terms & conditions wise AF and KLM appear to be unbeatable. However there is more to the equation than money. If I could start over, I would’ve tried to get into Cargolux with no hesitation.

No dog in this fight, but how long would one expect to wait for LH command? That’s usually the most coveted job at an airline. Wouldn’t it be reasonable to have to wait a while to get there, unless you worked somewhere like Cargolux?

Having tried different types of flying in different continents, why would anyone want to do long haul only is beyond me. I enjoy the occasional 7-8 hrs flights (mostly at night as it naturally happens with this type of trips), but once or twice a month is more than enough. I am knackered for a couple of days after that and happy to have the 2 short legs days.
Anyway, to each their own. Good luck.

Guess it’s a mental/physical thing. My body reacts to long haul constant as if it’s holiday, short haul is constant fatigue. Based on a 24/24 schedule for both.

What about Swiss? Lufthansa group also

I'd say that if you're more than a few years in this business, the best airline is your current one - going anywhere else probably means starting at the bottom and waiting years to reach the same level (and by this time you would've been better in your old one anyway). Conditions at LH/AF/KLM are probably great, but only for people who already have been there for 5/10/20+ years.

Quite content with €205k in LHS of a light jet at NetJets with 142 duty days a year and a few volunteer days thrown in when it the kids are at school. Off = off and you can always so no for fatigue etc. Hotels are sometimes fairly crap but on the whole it’s a place I won’t leave voluntarily.

I don't know, I'm really miserable with the entire industry. I have done 7k plus hours as an FO on different types in different countries. From lowcost EU to Middle East, to major in EU long haul, to covid. Spent two years recovering from the rosters, got scammed with b2b agencies and then took a shot at ACMI cargo which is actually the best I have done so far. I resisted the decay in pay and conditions and always just fought it out and tried somewhere else. I'm in my mid 30ies, lost all savings when covid hit. I'm poorer than I was before getting into this career and I'm still an FO on a 737 just like when I started. The pay is the same like 12 years ago, roster is now half decent for the first time doing EU cargo, but they could send me out to god knows where tomorrow @ zero job security while the market is in a downturn and the company tells us every other week how overcrewed we are. I dont think I'm the worst pilot out there, but I dont know how much more I can still take. Everytime I walk through an airport on a crappy standby ticket I just feel like trash while I handover my hairspray and shampoo to airport security for the 5th time in that month. I'm about ready to take a command or go flip burgers and never look back, or both. All my mates are having prosperous careers outside of aviation while I'm trapped in a hamster wheel of BS. When I hug my little one after being away for 10 days straight I just think to myself, *** this !!!!, but I need the money to pay off the debts from the last three years. At the same time, some rich or delusional kids enjoy the "new opportunities" to work more illegaly for less. I'm probably too dumb to make it into LH, and I'm also too old and burned out already. If I listen to myself here, I should really just eject.

I don’t know you but your post touched a nerve. I feel your pain. I also had a rough patch in my 30s with me being stuck in the RH seat, the company being constantly on the brink and therefore no idea if I had a job next month, let alone a promotion. Got my Command eventually on a good salary just for the company to go bust and shortly after being hit by Covid like you. I ended up driving a van - like so many others - making a fraction of what I was earning before, thinking that this would be the end of my career. I’m now back flying but under no Illusion that I would be in a far worse position (not only financially) if I hadn’t come back. Obviously I don’t know if you have any other qualifications but if you don’t it’s very difficult to find something else that will pay you nearly as much. I would also be very careful with comparing others “successful” careers with yours. Most of the times we don’t know what goes on behind the scenes. From my experience I can tell you that to earn anything near in a different kind of job you will have to work very hard, be constantly on the ball and under pressure. Don’t let yourself be fooled by shiny cars and big houses. The big advantage of this job is that once you check out and you’re back home you normally don’t have to think about it anymore. I’m still convinced that there will be more opportunities around the corner, especially for people with your experience. Obviously a command would help. If being home is your priority try to apply for jobs close to you. But foremost don’t try to compare your life with the life of others. Everyone is carrying is own heavy luggage believe me. Wishing you the very best!

£100k a year to kill yourself with fatigue. That's the modern package.

Command is 7/8 years at Virgin, not 15/20. I think that’s unbeatable for a wide body command. Certainly worth thinking about if you’re that way inclined. Horses for courses.

[QUOTE=pudoc;11418237]Command is 7/8 years at Virgin, not 15/20. I think that’s unbeatable for a wide body command. Certainly worth thinking about if you’re that way inclined. Horses for courses.[/QUOTE

Virgin lacking at getting guys through the door ….. I wonder why

Interesting ... could you elaborate why widebody command is only at 7-8 years at Virgin? Due to growth, or attrition, or what else? Given that 15+ years seems to be the average at most other airlines. PPJN states people leaving, but it is not clear to me why

Probably because they treated their pilots worse than any other airline in the western hemisphere during covid by sacking almost 40% and ripping up all agreements and contracts…..permanently.
Not the place to fly longhaul unless you really want to spend minimum rest downroute, position in economy and fly to New York 6/7 times per month.
Zero roster control, zero stability, zero variety, maximum fatigue.

That might be why people are leaving.

Well given the guys going for command at the moment have done 10+ years not sure where the 7-8 years for command came from.

There's some amount of airframe growth and some retirements but nothing major. The amount of people taking part time and just leaving is picking up though due to the poor rostering practises.

Perhaps Pudoc's been listening to the fanciful stories from some of the managers over at VHQ