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like a ninja, one post and he’s gone |
Originally Posted by Deano777
(Post 10212691)
You can't expect anyone to show up early for report let alone new first officers, nobody has a right to dictate this to any member of the crew. All I would expect is a good knowledge of SOPs and be open to a little bit of advice. The only person responsible for one's training and development is the first officer himself. Everything else will grow with experience.
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Originally Posted by LHRPony
(Post 10214558)
Don’t be arrogant, don’t allow yourself to become lazy. Everyday try to do something better than yesterday. Accept and embrace you don’t know it all and never will. when you get 1000 hrs read this again, when you get your third stripe read this again. Remember you can have a great day out AND do it the right way. When you have a tough day, look at the sun rise/set, the beautiful views. The fact you get to play with such a machine and forget about company politics and remember why you put so much effort into becoming a pilot in the first place. |
4runner, sorry but no, the captain cannot dictate to anyone or any member of his crew to turn up early for report, he/she isn't their "captain" until they report for duty. If I was a first officer and a captain told me to turn up early for report I'd tell them where to go, luckily I don't have that issue anymore. I grow rather tired of hearing SSCMs telling their colleagues to "turn up early". You sound like the type of captain every first officer dreads seeing on their roster. Good for you.
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Originally Posted by Deano777
(Post 10216873)
4runner, sorry but no, the captain cannot dictate to anyone or any member of his crew to turn up early for report, he/she isn't their "captain" until they report for duty. If I was a first officer and a captain told me to turn up early for report I'd tell them where to go, luckily I don't have that issue anymore. I grow rather tired of hearing SSCMs telling their colleagues to "turn up early". You sound like the type of captain every first officer dreads seeing on their roster. Good for you.
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Not to say ‘sorry I got lost trying to find the crewroom’
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I had this one Captain miffed at me for not showing up 15 min earlier to print the flight package. He didn't even say hello. I was still at least 5 min earlier than check in, mind you, and was as usual on minimum rest.
He didn't have time to finish his sentence that I was out, to get a coffee, just to return 7 seconds before official check-in time. It was not the most entertaining duty of my career but hey, if that's how some people want to play it, be my guest. |
Originally Posted by Deano777
(Post 10216873)
4runner, sorry but no, the captain cannot dictate to anyone or any member of his crew to turn up early for report, he/she isn't their "captain" until they report for duty.
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Originally Posted by Fly26
(Post 10217710)
Not to say ‘sorry I got lost trying to find the crewroom’
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Don't use coloured highlighters on the OFP or Notam package!!! Other than that be willing to engage, discuss and learn:ok:
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Originally Posted by White Knight
(Post 10219097)
Don't use coloured highlighters on the OFP or Notam package!!! Other than that be willing to engage, discuss and learn:ok:
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Yes jwscud your quite right! In Shannon when out of base on early’s I always had to turn up 20mins earlier than normal at one of the departure gates to exit airside to the crewroom as I never quite knew when the security guard would do his/her rounds to let me out.....always left standing pressed up against the glass waiting like an exhibit in the zoo!
Originally Posted by Jwscud
(Post 10218557)
All too common when working out of base with Ryanair. Trying to take the third turn past the secret chalk mark then being stopped by security because the code for the door in the brief was three months out of date was par for the course. |
You know how as an F/O you hate being told how to operate the aircraft by the Captain all the time.
Well Captains hate the same thing. So instead of instead of trying to prove how good you are by quoting chapter and verse to the Captain, how about ask why he uses the technique he uses sometimes. You will learn one of 2 things. Either an alternative way of operating the aircraft, Or a way NEVER to operate the aircraft. |
Originally Posted by TPE Flyer
(Post 10230599)
You know how as an F/O you hate being told how to operate the aircraft by the Captain all the time.
Well Captains hate the same thing. So instead of instead of trying to prove how good you are by quoting chapter and verse to the Captain, how about ask why he uses the technique he uses sometimes. You will learn one of 2 things. Either an alternative way of operating the aircraft, Or a way NEVER to operate the aircraft. |
Originally Posted by Vessbot
(Post 10230676)
Disagree, if the Captain is doing something against a chapter and verse (which sounds like a matter of procedure, and not technique), he needs to cut it out. It is the FO's job to point out the error and put a stop to it. Additionally, the Captain should stop justifying his behavior by attributing the conflict to the FO's motivations (trying to look good) and take responsibility for himself.
As an F/O, not surprisingly you have clearly missed the point. The "technique" you were taught by a training Captain, might not be the "technique" I was taught by my training Captain. The naivety of your statement clearly emphasises my point. No 2 pilots operate the aircraft exactly the same way every time. What descent profile do you use? What about below 10,000ft? When cleared for an ILS, do you are arm the APPR immediately or wait until you are within the capture region of the ILS (as per manufacturer's guidance)? At what altitude do you take gear on an ILS? Do you activate approach phrase everytime, of do you let the plane activate it by itself when it over fly's the psuedo waypoint? Every question just asked is open to technique or personal judgement based on circumstances. YOUR way is not the ONLY way. When your a Captain being hassled over trivial crap by the F/O all day you might understand. |
Originally Posted by TPE Flyer
(Post 10230717)
Ever heard the phrase, "1more than 1 way to skin a cat"? There are plenty of ways to operate the aircraft within the framework of a companies Policies and SOP's.
As an F/O, not surprisingly you have clearly missed the point. The "technique" you were taught by a training Captain, might not be the "technique" I was taught by my training Captain. The naivety of your statement clearly emphasises my point. No 2 pilots operate the aircraft exactly the same way every time. What descent profile do you use? What about below 10,000ft? When cleared for an ILS, do you are arm the APPR immediately or wait until you are within the capture region of the ILS (as per manufacturer's guidance)? At what altitude do you take gear on an ILS? Do you activate approach phrase everytime, of do you let the plane activate it by itself when it over fly's the psuedo waypoint? Every question just asked is open to technique or personal judgement based on circumstances. YOUR way is not the ONLY way. When your a Captain being hassled over trivial crap by the F/O all day you might understand. |
Originally Posted by Vessbot
(Post 10230917)
Are all of these questions spelled out in "chapter and verse?" If not, then they're technique, not procedure; they're also not what I'm talking about, which is procedure spelled out in black and white with no discretion left to the pilots. Maybe you were originally thinking of technique and misspoke with the "chapter and verse" quip, and if so then I agree with you on your examples; but it immediately reminded me of the squishy justifications that pilots will come up with to justify anything. Give them an inch in discretion and they'll take a mile.
And I am not talking about Black and White Procedure either. Read my previous post, everyone of those examples can be flown with different techniques within the framework of SOP. In any event, you will understand my point when you become a Captain and realise there is more to operating an aircraft than nice landings, selfies and trying to unlock the pants of every flight attandant. |
TPE.All Training Captains on the planet Earth SHOULD be teaching the same/identical methods to operate their jet based upon the written information contained within the FCOMs (what we do) and the FCTM (how we do it).After doing this training stuff since 1990 it depresses me each time I come across pilots who have been trained to operate Boeings and Airbus using some TCs personal methods.Follow the FCTM!!
In the various situations highlighted above there is often room to make variations from the method stated in the FCTM.This does not mean a pilot is not following SOP at all.We cant be that rigid.The statement "what descent profile do u use" is quite a flippant statement.There is ONE profile and it is in the FCTM.When outside factors take u outside this profile then adjust....... |
I would expect a new FO to enjoy the flight as much as I do. Not to hesitate to fly the aircraft manually when convenient to build his confidence on the machine, to share his experience and to ask questions; I would be more than happy to answer and if I don't know we would check in the books together or ask on PPRuNe xD. I expect him to be relax but to be assertive and call my attention in case I'm doing something unsafe or stupid. I believe we can always learn from our colleagues regardless of their experience. But I also expect him to comply with the SOP and not to break my nuts when I'm flying unless it's unprofessional or safety related obviously. I always let the FOs fly the way they want, so I expect the same treat.:}
I expect him to be respectful and a good professional also. What grinds my gears for example is when I'm PF and I go to the toilet, as soon as I close the door, I can hear the engines spooling up... Cause he wants to go home early so he accelerates without telling me to gain 3 min of flight time and burn 100 kg extra fuel when we are 25 min ahead of schedule... Well done.:} |
Originally Posted by pineteam
(Post 10232919)
. I expect him to be relax but to be assertive and call my attention in case I'm doing something unsafe or stupid. I believe we can always learn from our colleagues regardless of their experience. But I also expect him to comply with the SOP and not to break my nuts when I'm flying unless it's unprofessional or safety related obviously. I always let the FOs fly the way they want, so I expect the same.
I don't need to be told that the trigger for brake fans is 100 degrees when I ask you to put them on at 80 degrees because I have a 3km taxi ahead of me at MTOW. Thats called situational awareness. I don't need a lecture because I am using and have briefed NAPD 1 for strategic reasons when the SOP says 1000/1000. Thats called Command Jugdement. I shouldn't have to repeat myself when I say don't change the cruise speed while we are bumping a long in TB at out OPT ALT (which happens to be pur REC MAX) with a very small margin to MMO. Thats called safety. |
What you mean to say is use airmanship. Which is learnt from experience and not taught in the sim or a classroom. |
Funny enough, some guys have good airmanship since day 1 and some will never get it! I'm with you TPE Flyer. I think the attitude plays a big role. Many times some Fos will make annoying inputs when I'm PF like: '' Do you want me to request heading to the right? '' For an isolated CB clearly visible in day time 100nm ahead... Like dude! If I want a heading I will ask you! and we are still so far out so what's the stress?! I'm PF, I'm not blind and I have no intention to scare my passengers so in due time I will request deviation. Or some guys will request descend when I'm PF just because they see the TOD arrow like 10 miles ahead... Like WTF? What about asking me first? It would never come to my mind to do such a thing especially as a Fo. Some of them they just don't get the concept. Many many times, Fos do stuffs that I'm thinking in my head: '' Jeez, I would never have done such a thing as a Fo!'' I have been on the left for 1 year and 3 months, and I can count in one hand maybe 2 at best, the time I have given a gentle verbal input to the Fos and it was purely because it would have triggered a QAR ( for instance they keep max reverse below 70kt IAS, at 45 kt it triggers a red QAR.) or we would not have been stabilized. But yet, some Fos, will give me like 10 inputs or annoying suggestions during one sector... And to be clear I'm not saying it's an FO thing, they are a minority in fact. I had the same, actually much more issues being on the right with douchebag on the left treating me like the third AP, spoon feeding me all the time during the approach and stressing like hell due weather... I guess some of them don't trust me or get those bad habits from those unconfident captains.. Lol:}
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Originally Posted by TPE Flyer
(Post 10233087)
I don't need to be told that the trigger for brake fans is 100 degrees when I ask you to put them on at 80 degrees because I have a 3km taxi ahead of me at MTOW. Thats called situational awareness. I don't need a lecture because I am using and have briefed NAPD 1 for strategic reasons when the SOP says 1000/1000. Thats called Command Jugdement. As a matter of fact, yes, you need to be told these things. This is literally the FO's job description. Now the FO might not recognise why you might be doing them, they do know when or how these things need to be done. Accept that sometimes flight crew aren't on the same page, you might need to explain the reasoning behind your actions, and carry on. For your FO to tell you the things that you might not know which might endager safety, you need to accept that you will sometimes, most times, receive comments on things that you do know. It is part of the job. But approaching an FO's remarks with the mentality of "I don't need to be told this" or "lectured on that" destroys CRM in the flight deck. You want your FO's to speak up and be critical, and not be known as that Captain whose FO's just sit there and look nice. Safe flying |
Originally Posted by jagema
(Post 10237258)
Gee, you must be so fun to fly with.
As a matter of fact, yes, you need to be told these things. This is literally the FO's job description. Now the FO might not recognise why you might be doing them, they do know when or how these things need to be done. Accept that sometimes flight crew aren't on the same page, you might need to explain the reasoning behind your actions, and carry on. For your FO to tell you the things that you might not know which might endager safety, you need to accept that you will sometimes, most times, receive comments on things that you do know. It is part of the job. But approaching an FO's remarks with the mentality of "I don't need to be told this" or "lectured on that" destroys CRM in the flight deck. You want your FO's to speak up and be critical, and not be known as that Captain whose FO's just sit there and look nice. Safe flying Sometimes it baffles me how hard can it be to give a simple explanation of doing something nonstandard. Take this example of the brake fans. If you as a captain know that you will be needing brake fans for a 3km taxi at MTOW, why not mention it when a non-standard item is asked for? It would literally take seconds of effort. I would be surprised if any F/O at this point would question the judgement. He might learn a great lesson there too, with little to no effort needed from the LHS. -M |
Originally Posted by jagema
(Post 10237258)
Gee, you must be so fun to fly with.
As a matter of fact, yes, you need to be told these things. This is literally the FO's job description. Now the FO might not recognise why you might be doing them, they do know when or how these things need to be done. Accept that sometimes flight crew aren't on the same page, you might need to explain the reasoning behind your actions, and carry on. For your FO to tell you the things that you might not know which might endager safety, you need to accept that you will sometimes, most times, receive comments on things that you do know. It is part of the job. But approaching an FO's remarks with the mentality of "I don't need to be told this" or "lectured on that" destroys CRM in the flight deck. You want your FO's to speak up and be critical, and not be known as that Captain whose FO's just sit there and look nice. Safe flying Ever heard of the phrase “sharing the mental model”? |
Originally Posted by ezydriver
(Post 10215771)
Turning up habitually early is a no no. When I walk into a crew room and find my FO at the briefing table with all 4 OFPS printed out and sections of the NOTAMS/WX all highlighted for me at report time I now know that the FO is not compliant with the FTL scheme in a company where pilot fatigue is a major issue. Unfortunately said FO’s think this is how to get along in said airline due to the culture. No. Try to think for yourself. If there isn’t enough time provided we take the time required and to hell with the schedule. Turning up early covers over the problems. * flying with a Captain that “hogs” the flight plans, doesn’t involve the FO, and is close to retirement (although in that case the FO is a little stuck between doing his job and having a bearable day) * having had plenty of rest, traffic was light, no queue at security and arrived 20 mins early. Are they going to wait for you to turn up to start? Of course not * being someone who has been burned before with 56 pages of FCO NOTAMS... 😂 * just someone who wants to be (note - doesn’t HAVE to be) early and prepared. Maybe it was not min rest from last nights late ALC, for the first time in ages * etc. |
“ find my FO ...” says it all. whats he supposed to do , wait outside until report time to fit your cynical and jobsworth view of the role. i pity the poor bugger that gets four sectors with that attitude |
Who gives a toss what a captains expectations of a new FO are anyway? Two individuals just need to do their own jobs professionally and objectively.
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Originally Posted by pineteam
(Post 10233411)
Funny enough, some guys have good airmanship since day 1 and some will never get it! I'm with you TPE Flyer. I think the attitude plays a big role. Many times some Fos will make annoying inputs when I'm PF like: '' Do you want me to request heading to the right? '' For an isolated CB clearly visible in day time 100nm ahead... Like dude! If I want a heading I will ask you! and we are still so far out so what's the stress?! I'm PF, I'm not blind and I have no intention to scare my passengers so in due time I will request deviation. Or some guys will request descend when I'm PF just because they see the TOD arrow like 10 miles ahead... Like WTF? What about asking me first? It would never come to my mind to do such a thing especially as a Fo. Some of them they just don't get the concept. Many many times, Fos do stuffs that I'm thinking in my head: '' Jeez, I would never have done such a thing as a Fo!'' I have been on the left for 1 year and 3 months, and I can count in one hand maybe 2 at best, the time I have given a gentle verbal input to the Fos and it was purely because it would have triggered a QAR ( for instance they keep max reverse below 70kt IAS, at 45 kt it triggers a red QAR.) or we would not have been stabilized. But yet, some Fos, will give me like 10 inputs or annoying suggestions during one sector... And to be clear I'm not saying it's an FO thing, they are a minority in fact. I had the same, actually much more issues being on the right with douchebag on the left treating me like the third AP, spoon feeding me all the time during the approach and stressing like hell due weather... I guess some of them don't trust me or get those bad habits from those unconfident captains.. Lol:}
Come on. man. They trying to prove themselves in your eyes. Being pro-active. Showing they think ahead. Being assistive to relieve you of the mundane task of flying, so that you can focus on being the Master. You are their natural role-model, having made it to LHS so quick especially. Are they overdoing it - most likely yes! Your choice of language leaves enormous room for character development.:D |
Have a bloody Torch, not your phone.
we are professionals after all |
After several years since posting this original question, it’s been great fun re-reading the replies. It’s clear 99% of the replies came from legends who were keen for a naive NTL FO to succeed and I thank you for the advice. I have to say the best advice came from JPJP who demonstrated the type of pilot I did not wish to become and pleased to say I haven’t.
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Originally Posted by TPE Flyer
(Post 10233087)
I don't need to be told that the trigger for brake fans is 100 degrees when I ask you to put them on at 80 degrees because I have a 3km taxi ahead of me at MTOW. Thats called situational awareness. I don't need a lecture because I am using and have briefed NAPD 1 for strategic reasons when the SOP says 1000/1000. Thats called Command Jugdement. I shouldn't have to repeat myself when I say don't change the cruise speed while we are bumping a long in TB at out OPT ALT (which happens to be pur REC MAX) with a very small margin to MMO. Thats called safety. communication is basic skills. |
Originally Posted by ford cortina;[url=tel:10254162
10254162[/url]]Have a bloody Torch, not your phone.
we are professionals after all |
Have a bloody Torch, not your phone. |
It doesn't!
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It doesn't! |
Originally Posted by OutsideCAS
(Post 11480619)
Mine does. It illuminates dark areas. I guess what you have might not be a torch.
I've never seen a 'phone torch thats powerful enough for anything more than a few feet away🙄 |
@OutsideCAS you're kidding yourself if you think a phone "torch" can replace a proper torch.
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No I'm not. Mine works just fine. Its not a huge number of lumens (about 50) and is like most cheap and small torches. Perhaps your both in need of a eye test? :E.
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Doesn't matter how good or bad your eyesight is if what you're trying to see in the dark is still...in the dark.
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