I think that in or out of the EU it will make sense for the UK to remain part of EASA- overcomes a lot of potential FCL problems.

But don't expect a say in what it does.

Same in my field with the EMA (European Medicines Agency although as that is based in London now, would expect it to move.

That may not be the what Gove-Johnson see however

Sheba, you have erroneously assumed that I was suggesting the UK operation would shut down. There is zero danger of that happening. The establishment of another EU AOC would simply be a way around the trading restrictions that many around here think we'd be faced with. EasyJet already have establishments in Potugal, Spain, Germany, France and Italy. The Swiss AOC has been totally harmonized with the UK. Any new AOC would dovetail into that. The company may have other ideas but you can bet this is already on the table as an option if necessary.

Thad -
UK airlines have been after the level playing field for years. Many of the more mature airlines are being very responsible under the new regs. Few moans and groans on the new longer FDP in the morning and lack of early / late regs which has meant more common sense rostering.
Most of the mature airlines are also protected by scheduling agreements.
Plenty of science also being used, airlines with CAA approved frms having commuting protocols to manage commuting. I suspect also UK AOC's will be leading by example for where the new regs are not so good.
Yeah there will be rogues unfortunately so I agree with your concerns but don't tar all the UK AOC with the same breath

EASA is an EU agency. Look it up on their homepage. EASA rules are applied by non-EASA members as well but they don't get a say when rules are made.

For those hailing the Swiss as a model, they have to copy a lot of (technical) EU Standards without having a say when those standards are set.

As for UK based companies setting up subsidiaries within the EU, depending on the agreements made after a Brexit they might be subject to ownership and Control rules requiring 50%+ EU ownership to have EU traffic rights.

If the UK (or at least parts of it) decide to leave the EU, it would most probably happen for the wrong reasons. I am not a UK citizen but I suspect that much of what has been written here and elsewhere about media influence is unfortunately true.

There are too many people all across the EU who try to make other people believe that the passing of the golden past is the EU's fault and that leaving the EU will allow a return to that (as was very fittingly written here mostly imaginary) past. That even works for countries with a communist past. The world has changed during the last 50 years and we take for granted that the EU has given us three quarters of a century of peace by making it economically unattractive to attack countries you're better off doing business with. If we leave that path by retreating to our own countries, "buying national", valueing locals more than foreigners, there might be a day when we perceive force to be a legitimate or even the only means to pursue our own interests. Look to Ukraine/Russia or back to the Balkan wars to see how it works. Living memory of wars within Europe is dying out rapidly but those people who witnessed it were the most enthusiastic supporters of European Union.

I'd be sorry to see you go but I'd still be against cutting you a "leave but keep all the benefits" deal....

I think we all understand that we would remain EU for 2 years. Given your superior intellect and research ability, research how long it took to agree deregulation of European airspace in the first place and how long it took to agree open skies with the United States, I think you'll find it took a lot longer than 2 years. Maybe the merciful EU and U.S. will allow us to continue business as usual but after a Brexit I doubt it.

Two years should be enough time to give notice to the thousands of British Pilots currently working in European bases and train EU passport holders to replace them.

Do you believe that a Brexit would be good for UK passport holding Pilots?

Hi Syntax.


Go back and read post number 45...... It is a very good article and clearly explains why we may not be able to join the EEA and also why we may not want to.


Whilst Britain, having voted for an out, would be obliged to provide work permits to EU citizens currently working in the UK, no EU nation would be obliged to reciprocate. It may well be a one way situation where foreign passport holders continue to work in the UK whilst British passport holders are forced to return to the UK.


What I seem to read in what most Outers argue is that nothing would change, well if that is what they want then why vote "out". Unfortunately things for British pilots would change dramatically for the worse.


I am a British/American but in my career 90% of the best work has come from having an EU passport.

Nothing would change......apart from the inexorable march towards a centrally controlled unification of European states run by a democratically deficient oligarchy at its centre.

It would appear from your post viz Anglo American and worked in Europe that you have no particular loyalty to either side. That, of course, is your right but for those of us that see the EU experiment, albeit noble in its foundation but now an anachronism that faces financial decline and social unrest in the globalised world, there is only one way to restore that ability of the UK to determine, for better or worst, its own future and destiny.

Judge11- That is a non-Pilot comment please could you keep those comments on Jet Blast and not on the Pilot threads. Thank you very Much....

Kungfu Panda you're not a moderator here and this is not your thread to police. It's not up to you to control the content.

Even now, several operators are favoring hiring UK pilots because it is cheaper and less burdensome to do so; I expect that factor would be even greater if the EU employment regulations, obligations and costs were removed.

Plastic 787- I am just making a request that we keep this thread Pilot related and not political. Jet Blast is perfectly adequate for political comments.


Midnight cruiser- in the disastrous event of a leave vote, British Airlines will be firing not hiring, for all of the previously explained reasons, read post 45. Also because, short term certainly, the value of the pound will go down discouraging travel.

Of all the airlines to be exposed to this, BA are probably the least affected of all. In any case the overwhelming odds are that practically absolutely nothing will change and that, as per usual, this is a load of hot air. Are you old enough to remember fully the scare stories surrounding the Y2K bug when apparently the sky was about to fall in because a digit was going to reset to zero?

Plastic787- "Probably nothing will change".....OK, so that sounds like you don't want anything to change so then why vote for change?
One change is that you would lose your EU passport which includes your right to apply for the many Pilot jobs in the EU, or jobs that require the right to live, work, travel freely within the EU.


Read post 45. BA could be severely effected, depending on the merciful US government, Airlines and Unions.

Kungfu Panda we get it, the sky is about to fall in. Just like it has with Anthropegenic Global Warming, Y2K, AIDS, BSE, Bird Flu, Swine Flu, Ebola to name just a few scenarios that have been blown out of all proportion by the doomsday brigade in my lifetime. The fact of the matter is that the extreme worse case almost never occurs, ditto for the extreme best case. The truth lies somewhere in between.

plastic787- Maybe but why would you unnecessarily take the risk? A lot of British Pilot jobs could be on the line and British Pilots could be seriously devalued. Why do we have to risk it? please justify.


Why do I have to lose my EU passport?

Syntax: Things will change if for example: I come back from China without an EU passport and I wish to apply for Easyjet Portugal, lets say. That door will be closed because I don't have an EU passport.


All this because rather than campaigning to change the EU, you wish to have a total reset. You are clearly willing to sc... many of your colleagues in order to have your political whims come true.

A nice comment, yesterday, by Jeremy Paxman, ex-BBC journalist when discussing the likely outcome of the referendum -

Hussar54......YES but the fact that he would make a comment like that on the BBC sums up the importance of this vote to British pilots.

kungFu panda said

"It'll be great for European Pilots as the British Pilots are no longer able to apply. Rising wages in Europe, collapsing wages in the UK."

and

"A lot of British Pilot jobs could be on the line and British Pilots could be seriously devalued"

Presumably all of the many non-British EU pilots currently employed by British operators and based in the UK will be required to return home and could potentially replace all those British pilots that you say will no longer have the right to work there? That's a good thing if you feel there are really that many British pilots flying for non-British EU employers, because there are a lot of non-British EU pilots employed by UK operators. Job protectionism across most of the EU is absolutely rife - in my view the UK is the only state that has adequately embraced the principal of free movement of workers within the EU with respect to aircrew employment. On the contrary, this could be a very good thing for British pilots.

Reverserbucket_ Read post 45 to start.


Britain will be obligated to grandfather the rights of Foreign EU employees currently working in the UK. It'll be the opposite with other EU nations who will not have and will not choose to have a work permit infrastructure set up to grandfather the rights of British employees and particularly British Pilots (remember after a Brexit there will be a punitive response to Britain). British Pilots working throughout Europe at bases such as Leipzig, Bergamo, Hahn etc etc etc would\could be sent home on a nation by nation basis to swamp the UK with Pilots. Don't forget the UK is a significant net exporter of Pilots. At Leipzig there must be 200-300 British Pilots.


The only sensible conclusion is that a leave vote would be suicidal for British Pilots.

I'm inclined to agree.

Really? You think that the UK will have to keep all foreign workers even when Britons are kicked out of the rest of Europe? That has already been the case under cronyism and protectionism in most of the EU, only the UK and a handful of others playing by the rules. But if the UK leaves, the legal need to employ foreigners goes, so why would our businesses be forced to retain them while there is no reciprocity? So, instead of Britons being illegally prevented from having EU jobs and also finding UK jobs filled by EU counterparts, you'd simply find EU jobs legally withheld from UK folk and the UK jobs opened up to them.

KP, you and a few others have made some valid points that I hadn't previously considered, but like most of the "in" campaigners, you dress your argument in horror stories that discredit your position.

KP - I think AS just beat me to the post.

Excuse my ignorance but why will, 'Britain will be obligated to grandfather the rights of Foreign EU employees currently working in the UK.' when it wouldn't work the other way round. Surely if that were to happen Britain would immediately kick out all EU nationals of their choice as retribution.

After an out vote of our choosing we could clearly not terminate the employment of bread winners currently working in the UK(not humanitarian). We therefore would need to put in place a system of work permits for those EU nationals currently employed in the UK. Other nations who are not having any referendum and who don't have this kind of work permit system already in place would not be obliged to do so. To me that's obvious.


I am sorry but I don't really understand your points (AS + Stig). We can not force further bureaucracy on other nations because we have forced it upon ourselves. Other nations will not have to allow employment of non-EU citizens. It's clear (to me).

Yes Shuffler, always struck me as a curiosity that BA will take (and has taken) EU citizens into it's fold; Whereas how many Brits has Air France,Alitalia,Lufthansa et al welcomed (assuming native language speakers)?

EU urgently needs reform to cope with differing speeds of the respective economies.

Vote may be driven by emotional sentiment....could be a close call....

easy will already have a contingency and will use the uncertainty to talk down wage/lifestyle initiatives....

"After an out vote of our choosing we could clearly not terminate the employment of bread winners currently working in the UK"

Why not? If there is no entitlement then they must go. If they wish to remain, a path to British citizenship must be sought. There is no reliance on foreign aircrew - a professional pilot is not a specialised occupation in the sense that there is a need to recruit from outside of the UK to meet demand.

Reverser- now you're just pursuing an unrealistic argument, maybe what you view as ideal. Unfortunately we need to make a vote pragmatically on what would be best for us professionally.

Calm down lads. Citizens from Switzerland and Norway have the unrestricted right to work in UK and by extension the EEA. Therefore if Brexit were to happen, UK pilots would still be able to work freely for other European airlines and Vice versa European pilots could still work for UK airlines.

KP, what are you smoking? If exit results in UK citizens no longer having the right to live and work in the EU, then why on Earth would we have them have the right to live and work in the UK? What makes you think that the rules would have to be inequal, just because the present equal rules are applied one sidedly? This is one of the principal issues of the exit debate - the fact that the UK and its citizens have for decades been disadvantaged by the EU's deliberate failure to enforce equal rites of the Brits in the EU in the way it enforces the rights of others (including non-EU) in the UK. It is this entrenched unfairness that fuels the desire of many for exit. There is no way that it would continue in the way you claim.

Wow....If you're right AS then they'll kick out the EU citizens from BA,RYR,Easy then I can come back from China to a DEC with one of the above. If I believed that then I would have to be smoking something.


What you're arguing is probably my ideal as well but it is entirely unrealistic.
Work permits would be issued to EU Pilots flying within the UK after Brexit.


Individual EU countries will not issue work permits to foreign Pilots.

KP, regardless of how unrealistic or ideal my suggestion, at the expense of highlighting the underlying political nature of this discussion, I would suggest that this is precisely the simplistic view shared by a large number of the British electorate. AS's reflection that it is this "entrenched unfairness that fuels the desire of many for exit" is precisely the point - it is this perceived imbalance and erosion of our rights as British Citizens (few speak of being European or holding an EU passport - I hold a British Passport incidentally, at the top of which is stated, in a smaller font - European Union), that would make any grandfathering of rights for non-British EU workers all the more inflammatory, and not least as following Brexit, you say that "there will be a punitive response to Britain". So yes, all non-British employees to leave UK employment and no work permits - we are not Norway or Switzerland. The British electorate was mislead by the European Communities Act in 1972 as to the degree of compromise that would be demanded, irrespective of any perceived gain through the prospect of freedom of movement of workers, the benefits of a Common Market and the prospect of a long retirement in Italy or the South of France, enjoying a similar standard of benefits with affordable living costs. This referendum is an opportunity to redress the imbalance of the past 43 years, unless of course you feel the prospect of Turkey, Armenia and the myriad other 'continental' nations that the EC considers perfectly eligible for membership and further dilution of our basic human rights sounds like an acceptable proposition?

[QUOTE=Syntax Error;9279132]I am amazed by the amount of Stupidity on these forums sometimes, but I have to admit this thread both shows and proves the lack of understanding for EU In / Out../QUOTE]

I think that you started this with your view that anybody who had different opinions from you was stupid and had no understanding.

Reverser_ strangely I agree with what you're saying and that is why I take the opposite view.

Hmm, I'm alright jack. You can suffer.

I see mol is in the press calling for a big yes vote. No surprise as most of his uk cc are eastern bloc...

Personally I think it's a bad show a boss of a foreign company sticking his nose into uk politics to line his pockets. And whenever I see businesses campaigning to stay in, it makes me want to leave even more. Businesses are only interested in driving up their profits, partly done by being able to hire cheaper unit cost overseas labour.

With 323,000 people coming here looking for work each year (roughly we need a new city the size of Nottingham each year! No wonder house prices are mental) that is only driving down labour cost further pleasing these sociopath ceo's of large businesses.

The chief executive of British Airways parent company IAG has said a ‘Brexit’ from the European Union would not have an impact on its business.

The head of the company which also owns Aer Lingus, Iberia and Vueling did admit the impending referendum was causing “uncertainty” in the market.

Speaking to BBC’s Radio 4 Today programme about what impact a vote to leave the EU would have, Walsh said: “We have taken advice from a number of sources, we have looked at this internally, we have undertaken a risk analysis.

"Obviously there is uncertainty in the market which is weighing on people's minds. But our view is should there be a vote we don't believe it will have a material impact on our business,” Walsh added.

Of course Walsh says this. I would bet 95% of staff at his various airlines are local staff. Unlike mol, who sends his guys and gals out whereever he needs, and most of the cc in uk are from Europe mainland and earn very little money. Also the bigger portion of their incomes are long haul.

Businesses are only interested in themselves and their shareholders (most of which are now large overseas hedge and trust funds). Why anyone would listen to a business saying to stay in is beyond me. Bunch of tax avoiding sociopathic nut jobs in the main these ceo's.

I feel the same, and even more so after Hollande's threats - if that's the best persuasion the EU can muster, then what to stay in for? Frankly, if the attitude to the UK is to bluster and bully (and it has historically been so), then we are clearly better off out.

As for the concerns of the IN lobby that the UK would be excluded from so many deals and opportunities, consider this: if the UK leaves, it will probably trigger the departure of numerous other member states, principally the prosperous ones with a work ethic. I dare say such a group would include the Netherlands, Scandinavia and ultimately Germany, once Merkel gets the boot from disgruntles German voters. That group is almost certain to form a new collaboration with lessons learnt from the mess that is the EU. It'd be a group far more beneficial and effective than the current mire.

Nothing radical/surprising here, a European mainland AOC will take care of everything. . . . . .


Easyjet to set up continental based airline - BBC News