JaxofMarlow,

I'm not saying that M and DB are wrong or that their arguments do not have merit. What I am saying is this is not the place for their soapboxing. By all means, create a thread elsewhere and discuss the rights, wrongs and politics of Norwegian, Trump, unions etc etc etc but ELSEWHERE and not in the Terms & Endearments thread. Their constant bitching does nothing to enhance the knowledge base here, especially when neither has admitted to having any, actual, experience of Norwegian other than what they've read or heard about elsewhere. Their 'facts' are merely repetition of others' words.

I will not add any more comments as I'm well aware that I am derailing the thread and can be accused of doing exactly what they are doing......albeit to a far lesser extent.

Back to Norwegian 787....LGW...terms & endearments.

If Mr Trump stops their long haul ambitions, perhaps their won't be much in the way of T's&C's to discuss !

Macdo
 

You rather miss the point, even if Trump were to revoke NAI Dot approval Norwegian will still continue to operate to the US under European skies through their Norwegian AOC.

With Brexit looming he is very unlikely to block NUK application, the Uk being his NBF

Ironically it is the fact that the DoT have held approval for so long that has forced Norwegian to fly to mainly the US because it works better with the restrictions than without them, otherwise Norwegian could utilise the crews in a better way for non US long haul destinations

Mr Trump, better than anyone, understands that money and business are God. It's not just us on this side of the Atlantic that benefit from discounted flights - the Yanks are pretty savvy and cost conscious too. I don't think there'll be any patriotic loyalty to their own airlines if there is a better deal to be had with Norwegian.

Hello, everyone,

With an interview scheduled as RCA, reading this post at length trying to find more information about terms and conditions, and also about "how it is" to actually work there.

I know about the low pay... I'd be taking a paycut for sure, but then, reading :

and the fact that this is under the OSM contract that you sign after 3 years...

Seriously, I don't understand it... this is decent pay really... so:
- why would norwegian do that ?
- why don't they talk about it properly to attract more people ?
- is this really true ? This could be the make or break for me

On another note, they sent me some rosters, hotels are on there, I checked, its not that crap, and most layovers to california seemed to be 48h...

I would love to get more insight about all this...

Info about the OSM contract, and how it really is to work for NLH. How's the training ? The command course for an RCA. How long to the upgrade btw ? How's the atmosphere ? Are people happy at work ? How are the other pilots to work with ? How is the relationship with direct management, training, ground staff, the crew ?

Thanks :-)

Do not forget that figures quoted are for LH captain after you have spent 3 years as FO.

I guess the questions you should be getting answers to are...

What's the pension ?
What's the lol ?
What's the sick pay ?
What's the increments every year ?
How much did you pay to get in ?
What are your employee rights as you work for OSM ?
Which union will you be a member of ?

If you do not actually know from them what the salary actually is have you wondered why?

I guess I would very much like answers to your questions as well as mine :-) and preferably from pilots actually working at Norwegian Long Haul.

My reason for coming back are family related and I know it won't be ideal. But then not being with my family is not ideal either. I'm weighing the 2 that's all.

If you have answers to some of your or my questions pls don't hesitate :-)

Not sure I would want to be a passenger knowing my pilot had to pay to get his job.

Fratemate:

Not only have you failed (spectacularly) in your attempt to moderate and censor this thread, you conveniently overlooked the title of this forum, copied and pasted below for your review:

Terms and Endearment
The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

Like the majority of my detractors, you are unwilling or unable to address the content of my posts, entirely applicable to the forum prerequisites above. Sadly, you can only provide witless responses or invent false criticism, such as my necessarily using facts “copied and pasted” from supporting official publications and media reports.

My recent post references Norwegian’s Spanish and US based cabin crews rightly seeking to obtain a Collective Labor Agreement directly with a Norwegian airline, rather than a distant Norwegian Resource Group, fractionally owned, staffing agency, OSM:

http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/norw...mulig/66770816

Perhaps you can review the International Labor Organization Guide to the Employment Relationship in Europe and provide a reason why Norwegian’s agency employed, LGW based pilots, some represented by BALPA, have bizarrely chosen to accept a collective labor agreement with a staffing agency, despite their “employment relationship” meeting the legal criteria for a CLA and union representation directly with the Norwegian airline:

“In the United Kingdom, a mixed approach comprising statutes, regulations and case law is used to meet the challenge of new types of work [atypical employment]. In some cases judges have demonstrated a degree of judicial creativity to imply a contract of employment between, for example, a user undertaking and a temporary worker. For instance, in Dacas v. Brook St Bureau [2004] ICR 1437,the court found that “as a general (but not invariable) rule for employment law purposes a temp supplied by an employment agency to an end-user client [a Norwegian airline] will be an employee of the client and will be neither self employed nor an employee of the agency itself”.

http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/pub...cms_209280.pdf

Norwegian declares on its website that it complies (allegedly) with ILO conventions. There should be no issue for Norwegian to accept the direct employment criteria detailed in the ILO Guide above:

http://www.norwegian.com/uk/about/co...y/human-worth/

Norwegian’s agency employed pilots should follow the lead of the flight attendants and seek a CLA and union representation directly with the Norwegian airline.

BALPA continues to deposit pilot union dues for representation to a staffing agency.

Inkjet;

I had no idea you would respond when I stated my detractors are unwilling or unable to address the content of my posts. Please add; “or too ignorant” to the aforementioned traits.

Why do you think Norwegian refused to change the roster of two union representatives to allow them to attend a collective bargaining meeting with the airline? - Link:

http://cabinassociation.org/wp-conte...est-Letter.pdf

Is it possible Bjorn Kjos and his parent airline only welcomes union representation when they are not party to any agreement? – as with Norwegian’s LGW based pilots.

Bondi the reason no one responds is that you have lost all objectivity in your 'red mist' anger against Norwegian, as the company has continued to grow, win awards, modify its labour practices, pay its social and employment taxes you continue to drive down a peninsular screaming from the roof tops about how bad they are.

I can well understand that some of our American friends feel threatened by Norwegians growth (but its a fraction of the Gulf states into the US) and complain about in the main misleading reports of labor practices suggesting that all the crews are on doggy contracts based out of Bangkok, simply not true..but we have listened to and read your output of cut and paste for well over two years now.

In December you relished gleefully that Trump would stop Norwegian dead in its tracks, by revoking NAI DoT approval, without acknowledging that even if he were to do so it would not stop Norwegian flying to the US as it has done since introducing the Dream-liner.

Your childish Kool-aid and Rock ape comments only serve to further detract from your credibility.

Sully waanbes on the steps of congress seeking protection having backed the wrong nag (Hillary) is just so amusing.

No one pretends that working for/on behalf/through an agency call it what you like is perfect, but its much better than the ** semi self employed Irish Ltd company scheme or the P2Fly of Germania model or Wizz air pay rates, or Eurowings 330 rates and many other across Europe let alone the far East

Inkjet;

Your lack of a direct response to the content of any of my posts may be categorized as; 1. Unable 2. Unwilling 3. Too ignorant.

Based on your comment in post #945:

I’m going with option 3.

Still curious why Norwegian’s LGW based pilots sought a Collective Labor Agreement with a staffing agency when their “employment relationship” meets all the legal criteria for a CLA directly with the Norwegian airline, particularly when BALPA and its resources could have pursued the matter:

http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/pub...cms_209280.pdf

Here’s what the Norwegian Pilot Group thinks about OSM and “modified labor practices” - copied and pasted from their facebook page:

“Whilst we welcome his [CEO, Espen Hoiby] admission of many management failings since this project was started, we do not share his optimism for the future. In our opinion, OSM Aviation has already inflicted damage upon the reputation and finances of our company and Norwegian would be improved by disassociation with a company who's agenda seems to be focused elsewhere”

https://www.facebook.com/norwegianpi...98607800149526

http://cabinassociation.org/wp-conte...est-Letter.pdf

I'd probably go with option 3 also...

Thing is, most English folk are fairly pragmatic, BALPA is recognised by OSM, there is a functioning crew council that meets with the AOC holder on a regular basis to resolve issues, thus far they have agreed 3 year pay deal, a pension scheme with a employer contribution of 5%, a private medical insurance with BUPA, sector pay for positioning flights, duty pay for sim sit in duties, changes to the quality and location of hotels.

Now of course we could have engaged in all out conflict, but whats the point ? what would it achieve? your fixation of employment with Norwegian is irrational, you seem to believe that at a flick of a switch our contract could be terminated, well yes with 3 months notice that is correct, but that is true of any company and why would an airline that is desperate to recruit new pilots want to randomly sack 1 or more of them? your argument just doesn't make sense.

You have dedicated your life to cutting and pasting abstract articles about employment practices within Norwegian which frankly no one else seems to care about.

It is their train set and they choose how this wish to run it, so far you have suggested economic meltdown, air safety issue, false employment, non compliance with tax laws, tried your level best to support the american airlines and pilots in its attempt to deny DoT approval all to no avail , you have failed in everything and every point you've tried to make.

Perhaps if you had just got on with your job as a pilot instead of behaving like a teapot sprouting forth froth, you wouldn't feel so bitter and twisted.

A whole 5%?!

2% more than I'm getting now chesty!

So can someone actually answer the question, what is the OSM salary for a LGW based FO, SFO and Captain? I would like base anual salary plus details of any flight pay or duty pay.

Enzo999;

Hopefully, someone can provide those details for you. But why is your prospective employer, Orient Ship Management, refusing to answer your questions?

"OSM will answer all your queries relating to the contract, employment and training cost bond” - [email protected]

You may read details in my posts that OSM will not provide you. Good luck.

Inkjet;

In keeping with the modus operandi of the Norwegian regime, you dedicate your posts to making grossly misleading statements regarding the precarious employment relationship with OSM and the guaranteed “unemployment” relationship with the respective Norwegian airline.

What does this recognition give you with any Norwegian airline? Answer: Nothing.

Norwegian’s LGW based pilots have neither a Collective Labor Agreement nor union recognition, including a token gesture Crew Council, with which Bjorn Kjos and his parent airline must recognize and comply. Any consideration given by the airline to the contract terms and conditions between OSM and their employees, including a purported seniority list, is entirely at the whim of the airline’s incompetent management. Pilots are rented from OSM by the respective Norwegian airline to provide a service and may be retuned to OSM at will.

Norwegian’s LGW based pilots DO NOT have a 3-month notice period with any Norwegian airline. The notice period is with the staffing agency employer, OSM.

So yes, at the “flick of a switch” any of Norwegian’s LGW based pilots may be returned to their employer, OSM, without notice, reason or recourse. Moreover, OSM may be indemnified from any obligation to find their employee(s) alternative work based on any action by their client airline, Norwegian. There may be no notice period, or payment in-lieu-of notice, whatsoever. Read the contract!

These fragile employment circumstances create a job security fear culture, as detailed in publicized safety related incidents surrounding Norwegian.

It would achieve employment law protections and compliance, additional labor rights and labor principles, a CLA and union representation DIRECTLY with the Norwegian airline. A shelf stacker employed by a UK supermarket has more employment rights than a LGW based, 787 or 737 pilot flying for Norwegian.

The UK is a signatory to International Labor Organization conventions. The ILO Guide to the Employment Relationship in Europe clearly indicates all legal criteria is met to permit Norwegian’s LGW based pilots to have union representation and a CLA directly with the respective Norwegian airline. Given that Bjorn Kjos declares he complies with ILO conventions, there should be no “all out conflict” in securing the aforementioned objectives:

“We place great importance on ensuring compliance with employee’s basic human rights as outlined in the International Labor Organization’s core conventions” - Link:

http://www.norwegian.com/uk/about/co...y/human-worth/

The next time LGW based pilots pay their union dues to BALPA for representation to OSM staffing agency, I suggest they include the ILO Guide to the Employment Relationship in Europe below, and ask BALPA to explain why they are not representing them directly to the Norwegian airline - Link:

http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/pub...cms_209280.pdf

The US and Spanish based flight attendants are pursuing union representation directly with the respective Norwegian airline. Why?

Having been a member of both BALPA and the IPA i would loose no sleep in NOT HAVING any union representation. And as for Trump overturning the DOT decision...not a cats chance in hell .. Looking at the package offered by NAS, about 10000 euro a month, its not the best, but its surely not the worst..as long as the pay cheque arrives on time, to be honest, who cares where it comes from..

I have no intestest in working for OSM but I am interested in what the pay is, this thread is 49 pages long and not once has anyone given exact salary details. Lots of arguing but no actual details, how hard is it to say what the salary is?

Different tax codes will result in different incomes, however, based on Captain salary with per diem and 60 block hrs it works out £5925 after tax and FO again 60 block hours £3957 after tax for non-married UK tax payer. Plus or minus say £100 for married allowances.