Enzo999,

Well said sir. Ignore WBFs' posts. If you read his other posts, many of which are an act of pure hijacking of the BA threads, he is bitter and twisted about almost everything in every airline.

He went to CTC himself recently and got a RHS at Easy (he claims to have less than 3000 on the Bus) and as such, has contributed to the demise of t's and c's he accuses others of doing. Pot kettle black comes to mind.

Unreal behaviour.

Lawro - very disingenuous to miss out the last few words on that statement!

"There will be no DEC's accepted on UK contracts - whilst there are suitable SFO's awaiting an upgrade."

Balpa have accepted their are no suitable Fo's awaiting a command course at present and easy plan to recruit less than 10 DEC's from Aer Lingus/Monarch and Wizz. FACT

The brown envelope you refer to is the new easa flight time limitations that the company plan to impose on us - You need to join the union not write rubbish about it on a public forum.

I am & have been a member of Balpa for 18 years.

They have let me & others down time & time again .

I am a believer in Unions , not associations who do very little for the individuals of this industry , take a good look at what they do for you & demand more !

Some very interesting developments recently with regards to CPDLC & unlike the ATC unions , Balpa are selling us down the river !!

easy are taking in DEC's , that's a good thing but be aware of what the union does to protect you as an individual , what they say they will do & what they actually achieve are two very different things , you have a look back through those very expensive Balpa newsletters !

With regards to EASA FTL's , Balpa have been limp in their dealings with the authorities & there are some big shocks around the corner for UK employees affected by them.

I'm under no illusion, had it not been for Balpa I'd be paying for my car park, no food, crap uniform (oh wait!). Balpa aren't the be all, end all but you must understand the limitations placed on the unions by the government. Balpa within easyjet is only as strong as its members. Fortunately membership is high and it will be tested before next summer is out.

From the latest newsletter:

Having highlighted the issue to members in the last newsletter, we have since had the opportunity to investigate the issue further with management in an attempt to understand their justification for employing DECs in the UK. We are now satisfied that the Company are making considerable efforts to promote as many First Officers as resources allow but there still appears to be a shortfall in numbers for next year. As an example, although a command course starting in January is full, a course starting in December currently has 6 vacancies and the Company, extraordinarily, are struggling to find suitable or willing internal candidates. It is therefore becoming more likely that a small number of DECs will be required. We have been assured however that they will be based at LGW, will not jump transfer lists and will be employed on the standard Captain's contract with no variation in terms. Notwithstanding the above, if you believe that you may have been overlooked in terms of a place on a command course this Winter/Spring please let us know as soon as possible.

WBF


I fly with CTC trained First officers on the line and have done so since 2003 or 2004. I have noticed that in the last 4 or so years the standard of cadet has definitely regressed.


I am no line trainer but have had to grip several for basic things such as un ironed shirts, being unshaven, tardy timekeeping, and generally having an unearned sense of entitlement. Most of the latest CTC graduates are fair weather pilots who are generally no use to man or beast when required to
step up to the mark. But that's what you get when you are taken from zero to hero in less than 200 sanitized hours in benign weather conditions.

Limp on EASA FTL? They did a damn sight more than ANY other European Union and are still at it. The only reason EASA got voted through was because the cabin crew unions sold us out by signing up to a false promise that EASA then renaged on.

This forum amuses me!

For the vile human being that stated monarch pilots are failing the assessment in droves! Be a bit difficult as no assessments have taken place yet ;)

I Wonder About DEC Recruiting...
 

From a business and personnel point of view, limited DEC recruiting may be necessary for extremely young or start-up operation. However, as industry history has demonstrated, DECs often do not survive long-term, unless they are also 1) Significant investors and/or 2) Senior makers of flight operations policy - Management Captains.
That poor slog of a DEC joining a rice or sand airline that is in the midst of a mid-life growth crisis will be resented by most other captains, all FOs(*) and may be lucky to stay around long enough to complete his(her) contract. As soon as a few company-owned and barely qualified FOs have the minimum hours, you get a polite thank you (or not) and perhaps a ticket home. Expat DEC's are a necessary business expense for a growing airline and nothing more.
If you hire-on/fly as DEC for a new airline under your own national flag, retention beyond 3-4 years is likely dependent upon you level of stock ownership and your direct contribution to operational policy.
The smart DEC should expect exceptionally good money coupled with Zero love and even negative respect. And again my friends, that is a business and operations perspective, not a pilot's perspective. (I can fly, but yet again, I'm NOT a Big Shiny Jet driver...) In the end, all DEC offers are...:suspect:.

So let's get this straight.

One group of "pay to get in front" pilots are upsetting a second "pay to get in front" pilots, by "getting in front" of them. You honestly couldn't make this up.
Which part of the marketing brochure epaulette laden finery covered this part of the career path?

Sounds like the only winner here is the FTO

And you fly for easyJet? Thought not, what a load of utter tosh! Why don't you crawl back in your hole?

737Jock, he actually does fly for easyJet - here are your clues: what nationality is the president in his name, what airport is he mentioning in his posting history, what other type of flying machine is he mentioning in his posting history and when he uses a word like 'gripping' in that context he most certainly must be an Army boy! That should narrow it down. Previously of the name Robert G Mugabe and others.

Maxed-out, weren't you the silly boy who left easyjet perm on a 3 month notice period with only one month's notice because a couple of years ago you were so sure MON, the charity not a business, were going to see you good? Bet you wish you hadn't burned your bridges old boy. A person who has complained of others bringing up past posting history and paid for his training like others and enquired about p2f!

As for me, let's get it straight, I had an unsecured loan about 7-8 years ago to do a fully sponsored course and entered easyJet on the old original, full, sparkly, wonderful, grandfather rights contracts everywhere I've been in the network. Whether I had or not wouldn't make me any more or less of a pilot bar the short term effect of it weighing on my mind.

As I've said, it's not my choice, pay grade or battle whether DECs are taken. I most certainly haven't belittled, denigrated, abused or questioned MON pilot's or captain's abilities. I 'd have found it very strange if all DECs were from MON however and to the order of 60 or even more laughably 130! Hubris and nemesis again for some MON pilots.

I look forward to flying with those that make the grade - jaxofmarlow et al perhaps.

WBF,

I want to make it perfectly clear, I do not feel negatively towards Easy Jet I do not agree with all of their employment practices but have nothing but respect for one of the most successful airlines in the world. In fact if I can afford the accept the job I fully intend on joining you at EZ (and the command list) as do many hundreds of my fellow MON colleagues.

My issue was with you spouting factually incorrect bitter comments about a work force you know nothing about. I have said it once and I will say it again the 130 captains that will be joining from MON will not be CTC cadets, if nothing else they are far too old to have come from CTC.

P.s why did you take out a loan for a fully sponsored course? I might well be very wrong but I don't remember airlines queuing up to pay for flight training 8 years ago.

I really have no interest in getting involved in a pissing contest with you, all I ask is when you say things on a public forum about my friends and colleagues make sure you have your facts correct, remember some of these guys will not only be sat next to you but behind you!

WBF said:
"Maxed-out, weren't you the silly boy who left easyjet perm on a 3 month notice period with only one month's notice because a couple of years ago you were so sure MON, the charity not a business, were going to see you good? Bet you wish you hadn't burned your bridges old boy. A person who has complained of others bringing up past posting history and paid for his training like others and enquired about p2f!"

WBF, I now know for a certainty that you are bordering on becoming a huge troll. You obviously don't know anything about anybody on here. I have never flown for Easy or MON. Nor have I done ptf or even posses an A320 TR. I slog it out onTurboprops part-time whilst I keep my other career on the side and have my eye on the corporate sector. I am from a Modular background and I have zero flying dept.

Admittedly, I did once consider doing an A320 Rating and base training and enquired about BMI'S base training/ line schemes. Someone on pprune in the know, kindly steered me in the right direction and convinced me it was a bad move to do this. I listened to them, thankfully.

Nice stab in the dark though to try act all clever!

Let's cut to the chase shall we. You failed the BA selection and spent a huge portion of your time spewing out utter garbage on the BA threads. You went to CTC and borrowed money in the hope that you could leapfrog your way into Easy. Well done sir; you accomplished that.

Now you complain that some (not all) who leapfrogged into the RHS of a jet with you, are going to leap into the LHS ahead of you. Well boo hoo bloody boo hoo. You reap what you sow son!

Sorry if this is somewhere in the thread.

I've been on website. Where do you apply for future captain????

Or have I fallen at the first test

737Jock


Your experience of the CTC product of the last 4 or so years obviously differs from mine. Fair enough.


I actually think CTC provides a good course, I am a product of their training both B737 and A320. I stand by my assumption that the mean product is not as good as it was. Perhaps it is a result of the typical cadet being treated as a commodity. That is what you get with pay to fly contracts. Loyalty and pride in the job is not displayed as a rule.


With regard to operating. Yes they can use the automatics, yes they can fly approaches in reasonable weather. Bare minimum experience levels, very limited solo flying and a very prescriptive training combined with little if no life experience mean some CADETs fade badly given a long or an arduous duty. Sometimes to the extent where one is effectively having to think for two.


Back to the DEC thing, I welcome the addition of DEC if the company and the CC agree that it is in the best interest of the company and not to the detriment of our excellent SFO's.

Any problems I had with FO's (maybe once a year) was with experienced SFO's with 4000hrs+ who did not come through CTC or Oxford. Sure sometimes you need to coach a bit, but that's usually due to uneconomic flying and being overly cautious with descent profiles and/or coaching through visual approaches.
Now I know this and manual thrust is very scary in the easyJet world, but I would put that down to the attitude of certain captains from a certain island, not down to the FO's who are actually eager to maintain their flying skills and willing to learn.

Maybe you overestimate your own skills when you had 200hrs. I'm however sure that you had to be coached and made errors that everybody makes. But as far as I see the cadets are excellent and fly very well indeed and they learn very fast.

As for loyalty and pride, easyJet does not encourage this. Just look at the quality of the uniform they supply and the way they reward loyalty by skipping eligible FO's in favour of DEC's.

Oh and No I didn't come through CTC or Oxford nor am I affiliated to them, so I have absolutely zero interest in promoting their product. I'm sure that MON pilots are excellent operators, but as far as I'm concerned they can join the back of the queue. They would scream murder if MON would employ DEC's as they have a seniority list.

Word heard from Easy high command, 100 dec needed. I believe 135 monarch guys with upcoming interviews, which seems high. I do hear though that some of our trainers, management pilots are leaving for orange climes...I suppose it's for the Easy guys to push Balpa to slow the outsourcing of commands

Not sure its easy that is imposing EASA FTL on you, it's EASA and if not its no EASA AOC and no job.
I'd have thought EASY is without any doubt the best placed major UK AOC in the UK to adopt EASA FTL. I'd be more worried elsewhere :\

And it does full circle again. I think it is up to EZY to decide whether DEC are needed or not. They are best placed to decide on the state of readiness of their SFO's and their short/medium term resourcing needs, not the pilots themselves. Protectionism is fine but has to be recognised for what it is. The reality is probably that only a handful of MON captains will actually move and this is hardly going to hurt those in the queue. Every other industry in existence hires from outside when required (it is a very healthy thing to do from a corporate perspective) and if the pitch to prospective employees was " stuff your experience you go to the bottom of the pile" there would never actually be any cross company movement. If EZY need pilots, they recruit. If they don't they won't.

737Jock


You may work in a large base where you cannot establish a lasting relationship with Newby's . My colleagues and I establish some sort of rapport with these people and fly with them on a regular basis . Some want to go back to the bigger places.


I just think that these " bad uns " will be lost in the bigger bases. I mean you fly with one :mad: once you tend not to report the fact. I see the :mad: day in and day out . Do you give a :mad: if they are so bad if you fly with them once a year?. NO



You and the company should be happy I am not in LGW because you will reap the wrath of complete compliance with FTL and SOP with no discretion.

Odd that the bad uns I spoke about were in LGW (some years ago though). As I said I can maybe get to 1 problem a year. But hey please continue to gossip about FO's amongst colleagues and make sure that they will never get a chance to make a first impression.

Lovely base you must be in! Instead of gossiping maybe you should try to improve things.

Interested to know where Mesh got his 100 DEC from, we have been told 10.

I have no idea about what's going on but 120, 100, 80 even 50 sounds like nonsense to me. The MON ads for DECs would be open right now if that was the case.

Similarly, 10 would seem too few given the hassle associated with creating a system for recruiting DECs for the first time, unless, it is 10 now with further recruitment anticipated in the future.

We've taken DEC before at Easy, just not for a few years in the UK. Again it was a similar situation, chronic shortage of Captains and not enough Sfo's to promote in the time required, combined with another airline shrinking/going under.

Think 20 and you'll be closer to reality. There are a few heading for BA longhaul though. They could push that figure up a but.
As WBV said - this isn't a new development. They've been doing it ad-hoc for years. The important bit is ensuring those who are genuinely ready for command get a crack at it.

I couldn't agree more Thad Jarvis.

I've not seen any adverts for DEC Gatwick? Presumably Easy are contacting Monarch directly to see suitability of suitable candidates.

I can't believe some guys on here saying bravo to easy for helping out the monarch captains. Monarch, until recently, was a very safe, long term career. No chance these guys ever thought they would have to stoop so low as to join the LoCo brigade.

Any port in a storm, and a cornered rat is a dangerous beast ;)

'Monarch was a very safe , long term career ', are you aware of what has been going on ?? Probably one of the most stupid comments I have ever seen on this site !

As regards to 'stooping' so low as to join a loco , I have some very good friends at Monarch who would be very keen on jumping ship to a more secure & apparently long term outfit.

A job with low hours & high pay is going to be a very short lived one in this industry . I have never worked for Easyjet & understand you may have to work hard for them , however , longevity with a choice of European bases , a good share scheme & great company profits sounds like a good option to me.

Once again , hats off to Easyjet management for identifying good quality candidates from the likes of Monarch , good to see experience appreciated in the industry these days !!

Figs from senior pilot Managment at Easy, as always may be total rubbish....

Most people don't get any problems with First Officers at Gatwick, and the standard is not any different now than it was a few years ago. In my experience, if you treat people with respect, in 99.9% of cases they will respond well. All FOs understandably want to be captains, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that - if they have reached the required standard, there are few companies in the world that can offer the promotion opportunities easyJet can.

However, that is the sideline conversation here. It is absolute nonsense that easyJet 'need' DECs at Gatwick - they do not and there are dozens of perfectly good FOs queuing up to be Captains. As long as there is one qualified and capable FO in easyJet who wants to be a captain at Gatwick then there are no grounds for employing a DEC in his place. What on earth BALPA are doing over this I do not know - very little by the sound of things. No one has an issue with easyJet offering jobs to Monarch guys - but they do have an issue with them taking the commands of current FOs around the Company. The Monarch guys can join as FOs like everyone else at Gatwick and take their turn in the queue. There is a rapid promotion system available and they will be captains again in a couple of years at whatever bases have vacancies at the time. What Monarch pilot would have accepted DECs there? You've guessed it, not a single one. This is nothing to do with Monarch pilots' abilities - they are clearly top people and highly competent at what they do. This is all about leasyJet pilots looking after the interests of their own colleagues, because no one else will. It is absolutely not the responsibility of the easyJet CC to look after Monarch's pilots - their sole job is to look after the pilots in their own company.

Count you raise some good points. However the standard career path in ezy CTC Cadet FO Capt in quick time is oft stated as one of the benefits for working for a loco.

It may have passed you by but one of the other "benefits" to working for a loco is that they dont tend to have a seniority system ala some of the better airlines

Im sure taking a big picture view that having an airline where the bulk of the crews have followed a very similar path to greatness, could have inherent weaknesses. Maybe it adds strength to the whole picture having the surprise opportunity to add such a large number of very capable and experienced guys into the left hand seat.

Joinuing an airline with no seniority list, and then griping on a web forum that its not fair that your company hasnt adhered to a non-existent seniority list - does sort of highlight the attitude/behaviour based problems that could occur due having such a fixed career path in such a big airline

Just a thought

It may simply be that there aren't enough suitable SFO's for the forthcoming command course's, I know of 2 who have been taken off Decembers course for different reasons.

I flew with a SFO last week and asked when his course was, he said there was a new process whereby he could defer his command course until a vacancy existed at one of his 3 chosen bases. What a great idea that is. saves him having to turn down a course and saves easy from having to replace him at the last moment, or not as the case may be.

Encouraging to see easy are evolving the whole process and how great that I get to fly with this chap a while longer!

First of all, as John Smith has said, easyJet has a seniority system in all but name for command promotion. I do, however, disagree with his take on the merits of seniority - it has been a protection that has prevented management promoting 'good chaps', their mates, wives' tennis partners or favoured individuals who have have caught their eye by doing naff secondary duties 'a la RAF'. Yes it has stifled movement, but we all know if a company goes under you are tossed into a sea of uncertainty. I am delighted to be something of a lifeboat for Monarch pilots but not at any cost to our own pilots.

We currently have a command list that grows by the day. I fully accept that the Monarch pilots would be a great asset to any company, and I will welcome them with open arms. Nonetheless they should take their place as FOs and join the queue of other top quality pilots already here - every DEC from Monarch is a current easyJet FO who loses his command. Monarch pilots would never, ever have countenanced such a process there and we should not do so here. Our own internally promoted FOs are almost universally top quality pilots and have all gone through a rigorous selection and training system to get their well-earned command.

A parallel has been drawn over the previous takeovers/mergers with Go and GB Airways, where every pilot came across at their original rank. The key difference there, apart from the fact these were effective takeovers were that these companies brought a pile of aircraft with them and no one was disadvantaged in the process. Ultimately the BALPA CC at easyJet need to get stuck into this and do what they were elected to do - represent the interests of easyJet pilots.

Same old stuff.
As I have said before and acknowledged by John_Smith…In any normal industry, people made redundant/ forcibly demoted are at liberty to find another job at the same level and make a sideways move. Unfortunately, this ridiculous industry is far from normal.
What is so special about aviation ? A MON captain with 20k hours and 10 years in the left hand seat has to find his place behind an existing EZY FO for no other reason than the EZY pilot has been in EZY longer. Get real. EZY clearly think they do need DEC and that is that.

Four years ago easy put 4 bases under 90 day consultation and sent out redundancy notices to pilots based at EMA.

Although most pilots were 're deployed' I don't think any of those very experienced guys & gals expected to be anywhere but at the bottom of a seniority list, if that should have been the outcome elsewhere.

Having no seniority list has big advantages but....it doesn't cut both ways when the chips are down.

John Smith. Funny old thing, prior to Monarch getting in the Poo, a few months ago DEC's had been talked about. So what next is often not as thought. Personally I think the seniority system is now out dated and a detriment to the industry. In the 60's within the independents you spent about 11 yrs as an f/o the got made up to captain. & stayed that way moving companies to acquire better T's & C's. Allowed companies to recruit the best available.

The company can claim that there aren't enough 'command-ready' FO's to fill up their courses. They can convince Balpa of this too and to some extent it's true.

The reality is that there are a large amount of FO's who have the hours, meet the requirements, are perfectly capable but have not been scheduled their 'Assessment flights' for quite a while.

I'm one of them, and know personally many more.

If the company had been better organised, they could have rostered the 'assessment flights' over the last year and we'd be looking at a command this upcoming season instead of it being given to guys from Monarch.

However it's true, technically we're not 'command-ready' - we're stuck treading water until they schedule these flights and we can progress through the process.

Jaxo....quite happy to "get real" as you put it. Would Monarch get real if the shoe was on the other foot?
The fact is there is more than enough capable FO's at Easy who are capable of taking the commands. The company claims they don't have the capacity to train them, so DEC are the answer!