:confused: So are you saying it's Ok for F/O's to have a wife they can't afford, or Captain's to have husbands they can' afford????

I sense an agenda, or at the very least an attempt at stereotyping.

Clunk
 

I have no problem with you playing devils advocate in this debate.

The big point your missing here is its not about the money.

Most Captains flying for the big operators will make between €/£80K-€/£120K a year which is clearly very good money.

The problem is the fear culture that is creeping in with some airlines, more on that in a minute, lets go back to your GP argument, many who do earn similar amount of money.

can you imagine what would happen if the Government said, right all new GP from tomorrow, will only be paid when they work? also from tomorrow all GP will have to fund up front the cost of training them to be GP's, and by the way also from tomorrow we have the right to send to work in any practice in Europe and you get there on your days off, sort your own transport and hotel.

Lets not stop at GP's, we have branded the Nurse union as bunch of whinging lazy over paid prima donna's dressed up in strippers kit and we are going to charge for nurse training and uniform, we are also only going pay you when are dispensing pills or putting your finger up someones arse and forget pensions paid leave or sick pay and if you even think of going to the press to say that these are slave terms and condition that put patient's lives at risk then that will be committing an act of gross misconduct and you will face dismissal, if you don't like it you can leave and get a job with another NHS!

Clunk

You also sate that you'd be happy to do what we do for the money, well why don't you? you don't need to be a rocket scientist a reasonable level of educations is all thats required, you will need to put your life and family on hold for around 3-5 years, oh nearly forgot you'll need to fund up front €/£100k for your flying training through to IR/MCC and then another €/£28k to pay for your type rating, after which you'll have work for free until you don't need a safety pilot on the jump seat, then next to nothing for the 80-100 flights (with fare paying passengers board) during you line training. Whilst all this training has been going on you not worked at any thing else for 3-5 years zero income, but you have had to feed yourself/family.

Now clunk, it seems to me that in addition to being troll you have green eyes and are politically somewhere left of centre and see this as a ridiculous amount of money to pay some one to fly around in Ray Bans with a Rolex on one arm and trolly dolly on the other and a BMW in the pilots car park (we don't get a car park pass either!!)

So go on grow some balls and become a pilot or Doctor the worlds your oyster and it beats getting off on Pprune.........I'd best go wash the Porsche now, sorry meant the Porch

FaceLookbovverd….I agree with what you say, just the last bit about working in NHS and doing what we do for the money etc was from DeepestNorfolk…..

Felixthecat -
you'll find there are no similarities at all between the two, not just inrelation to Breitling watches - and that's my point - this move by the RPG looks like a ploy to improve Ts&Cs, and if it is, then any reference tosafety/previous disasters is just 'smoke and mirrors'.

My understanding is that RYR pay relatively well, and generally have a stable(ish) 5/4, 5/3 roster. Why would you mention Milk Tokens? Yes it happens,but at RYR? I doubt it - very happy for you to prove otherwise.


Wiggy -
Stereotyping is fundamentally important with media attention. The publicview of the 'stereotypical airline pilot' is that they earn a lot of money and have great benefits. How will the public react to suggestions Pilots are usingsafety as a means of getting even better benefits? Not well, and I wonder whether that is why RYR have reacted as they have - it turns the media attention around and suggests that the 'highest paid occupation' Pilots are the bad guys.


Facelookbovvered -

You are right - I am playing devils advocate.

I did fund my training, some years ago now - but the grass is not always greener. So I'll be staying where I am. Still have my CPL/ME/IR and fly for fun.

I think I've got a good handle on the reality of Pilot Ts&Cs. And I think that Pilots are underpaid and more importantly undervalued. So you've got me wrong there.

I'm not missing the point about 'Fear Culture' but the article specifically quotes a Pilot as saying "If you are not going to get paid..." when talking about the 'fear culture'. So he's made it about money.


If 'Fear Culture' is the issue - then why are we reading about uniforms, pensions, medical cover, contracts etc in relation to Safety?

So what's your point then? Just more trolling?

If it oinks like a pig, and stinks like a pig - its a pig.
I'll leave the identification of the 'species' to you.
Are you a Farmer too?

You were referring to the Colgon crash and trying to make a link between that and seemingly overpaid pilots who wear Breitling watches and have spent all their money on ex-wives and type ratings they can't afford. My point was there was no such link in the Colgon report and indeed there are more links to the pilots being poorly paid and tired from working extra hours to make ends meet. I made no such reference to milk tokens in FR. The link between Colgon and overpaid pilots was the perception you engendered and it is false, indeed the FO was earning less than $20000 and was unable to afford accommodation near the airport and had to make a long commute, as indeed did the Capt.

You carefully didn't address my question as to why the company would threaten pilots with reprisals if the pilots claims are groundless. As I said previously what are they hiding if indeed the pilots are indeed just overpaid wingers, it would play straight into the companies hands would it not? :ok:

If the pilots who ultimately are at the front end of the safety chain believe there is a problem then let the regulators decide if it holds water, not the company.

Amazingly, I found myself in sympathy with Clunk for the first time when Facelookbovvered accused him of being left of centre. I take that position myself, particularly with respect of protecting the little guy at the coal face from "The Man". I don't expect anyone else to share my views on that matter.

There has been a lot of debate recently on at least two other threads criticising posters for not standing by thier opinions, and maybe going to court with substantiated facts. I don't want to add to that debate except to say if the employer, or contract provider feels they are being unjustly maligned, they should have nothing to fear by doing the same.

And finally,

Well that would work both ways wouldn't it?

Felix... you've misinterpreted what I'm saying (or I've said it badly).
Colgan was mentioned by another poster -
I thought the comparison to that incident was inappropriate, there is no similarity, and I was trying to (light-heartedly) dismiss the suggestion of a similarity by highlighting that if RYR pilots are stressed about debt to the extent that they turn up for work sick, then its possibly for one of the reasons I stated. Sorry if that wasnt clear.

Syntax- thanks for your views on what you think I don't understand, if I can correct a few of them -

1. You suggest I don't understand contracts. I've been running a business for many years, and am probably more versed than most on here about the legalities and rights involved in both employment contracts and contracts of service provision - that's what I do, and have done for about 20 years, with companies bigger than RYR, every day, and now I'm actually quite good at it. Hence my unusually active participation in this thread...although you do make it quite difficult sometimes...:ok:

2. You suggest I believe any statistic. But I've repeatedly stated it is all about "perception over fact". The figures from the NAO are distorted (or just garbage) - and I think that is one thing everyone on this forum would agree on. But whether you or I believe them or not is of no consequence - they are 'official' figures from the UK NAO. You can't dismiss them just because you don't like them.


I'm still looking for someone else's (sensible, on topic) view on the RPG letter to IAA though.....any takers...?

I accept that there may have been some misinterpretation between us over the Colgon crash. I am a professional pilot of many years, and have been at the coal face in FR in the past and felt the pressure and conflict between safety and profit. There is far more than uniforms and pensions at stake.

Safety and profit do not make good bedfellows, like oil and water they do not mix well, hence the need for independent arbitration by the IAA. There will always be a risk in aviation, it is the nature of the beast but as a pilot I manage it and should not be afraid to raise my voice over safety matters for concern over my job. Indeed a company that truly recognises safety as its number 1 priority, as opposed to just a punch line to be toted as required would welcome the input from the people at the coal face operating their business model as opposed to shooting them down.

You seem to want to troll this tread for some reason............

16024
 

You make an interesting point re the politics' and "left of centre" but the irony of this is that by pursuing a development of pilots paying up front for everything increasingly excludes people from "average" income family backgrounds ever becoming pilots, because this development together with P2F we are increasingly seeing people from the bank of Mum & Dad, in other words if you or your family isn't monied forget it, when was the last time you saw an Asian or Black pilot cadet, its becoming more and more a white elite which is turning the clock back 30 years on the progress made on merit rather than money or family post RAF

You are correct, of course. In this instance I'm concentrating less on the ills of capitalism than the ways of improving the industry we're in. FR have gained at our loss in recent years (as have other surviving carriers) as a steady stream of failed airlines has provided cheap and desperate labour (a safety issue?).
If and when the Market softens, the only people who would go there might be those who couldn't go anywhere else (safety? I dunno, what do you reckon?).
Unless...the Ts&Cs improve.
And that's where we came in, I think.

I joined my current airline with a few ex-Ryanair guys. The stories they tell me of the intimidation if they go sick and the general bullying tactics need to be heard to be believed. I would never travel on Ryanair ever again; in my opinion it is a culture which places profit and revenue above all else.

I've not read the whole thread, but some of the early comments; so I apoligise if this question has been answered.

RYR claim pilots are not employees; they are self-employed. Any complaints should be made to BRK. So now there are 2 supposed buffers between the pilot and RYR; one is the pilot's LTD company and the 2nd is BRK who contract that LTD company to provide a pilot who is then shuffled onto RYR. So how can RYR then claim to be able to dismiss you for gross misconduct if you make a 'freedom of speech' allegation? They could terminate the contract with BRK for your services, but to suggest that they can dismiss you directly seems to be outside the industrial relationship which is in place. Please correct me if wrong.

fact is ryanair aren't doing anything wrong. I suppose they do push business boundaries and that seems to upset people.

I think the real answer to this lies not with ryanair but whether society really does support out and out capitalism?

answer that one and then you know how to solve the rest

Possibly the most myopic post ever.

"Push Business Boundaries"... What a lot of claptrap..What they do is operate outside the spirit of the law especially with regard to Taxation and employment. They even challenge the laws on Passenger rights which have only come about because of their bad behavior toward customers. They create virtual riots caused directly by their policies. Everybody else is to blame except MOL.As soon as somebody puts something on this site that they don't like they have their Lawyers onto it straight away. A little intimidation and suddenly a thread disappears.

Safety Concerns is spot on. Ryanair operate within the true spirit of capitalism and ultimately that is what we have chosen to be ruled by. Capitalism provides opportunity to those who are capable of exploiting it (supply vs demand) and does not guarantee that the exploiters will operate justly or within the law. The law as we have seen in recent years is too weak to deal with exploitation on this scale.

I think it also could be a case sometimes where the law haven't even been used, and before you have a judgement it is to early to tell what is and what is not.

Ryanair and it's contractors
 

Let's call a spade a spade, Ryanair but more specifically MOL don't care about its
Staff ,Pax or even it's junior and senior management. Fear of reprisal is the order of the day. Remember MOL told Tony O Reilly to close Ryanair when he was but a shopkeeper. Chickens come home to roost, as Southwest would say
"what comes around goes around".:eek:

No-one has to work for them

No-one has to fly with them

after all these years if you don't know what you are letting yourself in for at Ryanair you must blind, deaf, friendless and stupid

You must be crazy if you think they will change their modus operandi just for you either as crew or as a passenger

..Or unfortunate and unemployed.

Use that argument for PPI "victims", not professional flight crew.

if you are unfortunate enough to be unemployed and you decide to go to work for Ryanair then it's a bit much to complain once you are there IMHO

You have to live with the consequences of your decision - and if it becomes too much to bear then you may have to consider another job or becoming unemployed again

Harry is setting the standard extremely low.

Straight. And he is unable to tell the difference between living with the consequences of one's decisions, and living with the consequences of someone else's. And while HH's HO is that we should quit, give up, bend over, suck it up, deal with it, hand it over, eat :mad: and die etc. Instead we will continue to pull his weight for him.....

gentlemen if you don't like the T&C at Ryanair why work for them?

I wouldn't unless there is no alternative nor would I suggest to any of my mates that they do likewise

I try and avoid flying with them if I can however cheap they are

however freedom includes the freedom to take the consequences - if you sign up to work for them you KNOW what will happen - so don't come moaning on here - get another job as they ain't going to change just for you (or I or the hundreds of others who don't like their ways)

Aaah, there's a little gem buried inside all the guff:

Given the state of the employment market, that probably covers 99% of those who have joined the company in the last decade.

Everyone surely knows the nature of the beast when the sign up, but do you not think it reasonable to aspire to negotiate improved Ts&Cs once inside. If you don't think it reasonable then your Ts&Cs will probably look a lot like Ryanair's in the not to distant future.

Heathrow Harry - You wonder why people work for them and suggest they get a job somewhere else.

Why work for them? Because I like eating food. I also like living between some walls and a roof. I also have a 120,000 euro of debts from flying lessons I need to clear. I'd say the average cadet leaving flying school needs around 2,500 to 3,000 euro a month AFTER TAX to maintain an adequate lifestyle (without kids to support).

So why don't I go work for someone else? How about McDonalds? Burger King perhaps? In case you hadn't noticed airline CEOs aren't exactly kicking pilots front doors down in the middle of the night, begging us to come and work for them. Trust me, most Ryanair pilots would LOVE nothing more than to go and work for BA, Virgin, Thomson, Shamrock, Monarch. Sadly those jobs are like rocking horse :mad: these days. The only options going are the desert or the far East. 18 month waits for an interview with EK aren't unheard of, then if you pass it could be another year before you get a start date. I don't know as much about QR and the unspoken one but they all have their own issues.

Why work for them? Because I like eating food. I also like living between some walls and a roof. I also have a 120,000 euro of debts from flying lessons I need to clear. I'd say the average cadet leaving flying school needs around 2,500 to 3,000 euro a month AFTER TAX to maintain an adequate lifestyle (without kids to support).

Here lies the problem, they know most cadets are up to the eye balls in debt and will not only bend over, they'll also pull down their pants. The same can be said about DEC recruitment, dating all the way back to when the Serbs came over. Varig, bmi baby, globespan, malev all supplied unemployed skippers. They are the parasitic vermin of the industry, feeding off the desperate.

This argument is poor. You must have known before you took on that level of debt that there were good odds that you would end up flying for Ryanair, and the terms and conditions you were likely to receive were poor. Either that or you just didn't do your research properly.

Dozens of new cadets start at flying school each month and even a cursory glance at PPRuNe reveals the nature of what awaits them at the end of training.

Why did you still do it? Because you desperately wanted to be a pilot! So desperate that Ryanair are now exploiting you.... and so the cycle goes on.

No you are wrong Harry, you don't know what it is like until you see it for yourself.

I agree that people may HAVE to work for Ryanair and count my blessings that (so far) it's not something I have had to consider

If I did then I'm afraid I would grin & bear it whilst looking for something better - moaning when you have no chance of changing matters is truly a waste of valuable time and energy

Given that any google search on Ryanair (never mind the pages of anti-O'Leary rants on here) brings up all the horror stories you could wish for I really can't buy the " I never knew what it was going to be like" argument

Does anyone know what persuaded the BBC to give an hour of free uncritical publicity to Ryanair and Easyjet last night?

Apparently there is a current initiative at the BBC to make business reporting more interesting and accessible to its viewers/listeners. :*

HH, where Ryanair's terms and conditions go yours will surely follow. Perhaps you should be a little more supportive of those who are trying to improve things.

You criticise the pilot group for trying to take a stand and your message seems to be that they should just suck it up and accept declining conditions. I suspect if they did just that, you would criticising them for not fighting their corner. Your input to this debate is pretty pointless.:D

‘Plane Speaking: The Wit and Wisdom of Michael O'Leary’ by Paul Kilduff.

On his popularity: "I don't give a ***** if no-one likes me. I am not a cloud bunny, I am not an aerosexual. I don't like aeroplanes. I never wanted to be a pilot like those other platoons of goons who populate the airline industry."

Good luck guys!

Well Cathay cabin crew as part of their action to improve conditions, removed smiles...I think Ryanair Pilots should go public with the fact that until Ryanair agree to a Union negotiated contract for all Pilots then they will remove their effort to improve upon a Boeing Landing.

Scotbill

Probably something to do with "Airport Live" giving a showcase to BA.

Can't imagine MOL would let that pass without some free publicity in return.