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Thomas Cook CCQ 330
Saw the recent ad for 320 to 330 ccq with thomas cook and iago .
How when TC have just laid off 43 pilots and are demoting more can they give sectors to pilots who are paying ? A 330 rating with no experience is worthless , and there not likely to be offering you a job after training . |
Agree with you!
But this is capitalism as we know it. TR without hours is actually of use for EASA license holders who´d like to make the jump to Hainan, Air China or Korean........... |
Capitalism
Your right about the capitalism !
But your wrong on the type rating without exoerience , all those airlines require 500 hours on type . |
Not if you´re coming from the A320.
Korean for example requires you to get the rating endorsed beforehand at own expense. For JAR/EASA license holders this would be difficult as ZFTT with Korean would be impossible and basetraining would be hard to acquire. TCX and IAGO now offer a tailored solution for that. Ain´t pretty but I guess there is a demand. |
Air China and Hainan
Maybe for korean but the chinese won t touch you , so its a waste of 15k .
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Is this TCX UK or TCX Scandinavia?
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TCX UK
TCX Uk ,
My point is not is it worth doing , but how can you lay 43 guys off , demote numerous captains and then give sectors to pay to fly guys ??? |
...because the airline is struggling financially, they are being pressurised from the low cost sector, they've done it before on the A320, countless reasons but broadly; money talks. They're also aware that some sap will happily sign up for this deal.
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My point is not is it worth doing , but how can you lay 43 guys off , demote numerous captains and then give sectors to pay to fly guys ??? |
Think carefully about what you are doing. You may find yourself in 5 years time with a TR, a couple of thousand hours on type, and no job, and no seats available because they are all being filled by pay-to-flyers.
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This is yet another kick in the slats for TCX pilots who have already been p*ssed upon from a great height and I, for one, deeply regret the arrangement.
Added later: IF the deal includes line training. If it's only the rating, that's fine, of course. |
...because the airline is struggling financially P2F is bad enough, but to lay off your own crews and serve demotions only to employ(?) unpaid/paying inexperienced pilots (150h in a 320) to fly your long haul network is shocking. |
IAGO Flight Training - Fly the A330 @ IAGO
The Partner Airline: Thomas Cook Airlines The Aircraft Type: A330 Price: From £10950 plus VAT (where applicable) ETOPS sectors included during route sectors will attract additional charge- Price on application. IAGOFT reserve the right to change or cancel the program at their discretion. ALLOWANCES, EXPENSES & PAYMENTS: For each of the 4 sectors of line operational experience with the Partner Airline, no basing or subsistence allowance shall be paid to the Student by IAGO FT. For the sake of clarity, neither the Partner Airline nor IAGO FT shall make any payments to the Student during this period of Advanced Training The Student shall remain responsible for the following costs: o All accommodation costs and living expenses during CCQ training. o All accommodation costs and living expenses at the nominated base; o The costs of aircrew medicals; o Any Regulatory Authority (JAA/CAA/EASA) charges for licences and ratings; o Any additional insurances required by the Student in respect of Loss of life, Injury, Loss of licence, Medical or Personal possessions; o Costs of an airport ID. IAGO FT shall be responsible for the following costs: o The cost of arranging the Student’s CCQ training, ZFT training and line experience with the Partner Airline; Where Long Haul ETOPS sectors are undertaken down route operational related transport and Hotel accommodation will be provided via the partner airline. THE SCHEDULE OF A320 to A330 CCQ TRAINING Phase 1 TECHNICAL GROUND SCHOOL and SEP 11 working days including JAA Type Technical examination. All groundschool facilities together with Instructor throughout. TRTO final examination pass Phase 2 SIMULATOR - FFS 12 Hours shared Full Flight simulator (3 x 4hr details per crew) including instructor. 5 hrs LST MPA IRR and OPC (per crew) including examiner Phase 3 SIMULATOR – ZFT and LVP 4 hours shared Full Flight Simulator (1 x 4hr details per crew) including instructor Phase 4 AIRCRAFT TRAINING 4 Training sectors to accomplish satisfactory standards of line performance as assessed by the Partner airline. |
Thank you for that FL.
Hmm... ZFT and four sectors. Well, I guess that would not make much difference to the demoted guys/girls anyway. |
Desperate times desperate measures !!!! A blanket boycot would do the trick !!
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Have the TCX redundancies/demotions been confirmed? If so, great shame - some top people facing tough times.
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Do BALPA have a comment on this?
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I believe the min requirements are 500 hrs of which 150 are 320. This stinks of guys building hrs then paying for 320 line flying hrs and still completely inexperienced, once again paying to fly an A330. I can't bloody believe Tcx are letting inexperienced guys onto a 330.
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If someone interested from the press got a hold of this they could have a field day !!!
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Cabus
I in no way support the TCX approach to this scheme but i am interested in your comments about tcx allowing inexperienced pilots fly the 330. Can you identify any particular risk in this over and above allowing them to fly the 320? Aside of the seniority/prestige of internal pilots being thrown up against the wall, surely the risks and technical principles are the same as a low hour guy flying a 320? |
Min hours for a CCQ are 500 on the type being converted from. OSD(OEB) directive
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Pay to Fly
You think they d learn ! ? the last time they did p2f on the 320 one of the trainees broke an airbus , in a big way .
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surely the risks and technical principles are the same as a low hour guy flying a 320? The 330 is different. First, the aircraft is not a big 320 - far from it. Second, the 'routes and airfields' bit takes on a whole new dimension: Calgary at -35*C; Orlando TS in the summer (not to mention the airfield training traffic); Dom Rep ATC and approaches; Atlantic crossing procedures and CPDLC/ADS... I could go on. Certainly have taken many pilots on their first-time crossing but they all had a few thousand hours. Who wants a 500 hrs pilot with both ratings? The arrangement is unsound in my humble opinion. |
As Fantom says above really. When you get onto the 330 flying the aircraft should be second nature and need little training. Its the situational awareness, Atlantic procs, caribbean US airports and weather which takes time to get used to. Your mental capacity should not be taken up with the flying at this stage. Also, you really dont want to be building landing experience at 160 tonnes into an airfield with basic engineering.
I know the TCX guys will appreciate your support, thanks! |
I would agree with the argument that the person concerned would have little to no non technical experience which is some what vital for this type of aircraft.
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Fantom
If TCX provide a cover F/O on any line training sectors that should ease you're concerns and the issue of lost flying for perm staff. :\ |
Great points both fantom and cabus.
As i said previously i dont support the tcx approach but am just interested in the technical differences. Although i suppose similar challenges are presented at greek and spanish ex military airfields. Good luck with it all guys. |
paying to fly line training a320
Anyone heard of Flyairgb.co.uk
they are starting an ACMI operation from manchester with 2 airbus a320. They are taking 50,000gbp for 500 hours line training and people are crazy enough to pay for this. what has the world come to. My son had written to them, they replied after the 500 hours they will have a permanent position with salary.:ugh: |
very BAD NEWS
sad to hear TCX have now joined the race to the bottom, and has become equal to the likes of EZY, Ryanair or Lionair.
It used to be a good place to work, however I am glad I left the company after 8 years there and several 1000 hours on 320/330. Never looked back. Good luck to everyone staying, eventually more and more FO will be replaced by PtF, apparently all with BALPA approval. This just shows how completely useless BALPA is as an organisation, do NOT join unless you are a BA pilot. |
The real reason?
My guess is this is just a way to give the trainers something to do and earn their 130k? Therefore full union support no doubt; otherwise you are looking at demoting training captains. Shrinking airline, poor prospects for the future and a salary model based in the early 1990s must be giving them huge grief. Old kit and no money for replacements. A bit of PTF is not going to help much is it?
However, that does not mean the A330 PTF will be done in anyway but a professional manner. One assumes TCX training captains will provide the simulator sessions and not some SFI who is a buddy of a buddy and never even seen the aircraft. The skill test will have to be done by a TCX examiner if the pilot is going to fly with the airline I assume, although I may be well out of date on this. Of course a full TCX crew will be on board as well as the PTF person, the union would not have it any other way. The A330 is the easiest aircraft to land I have ever flown, unless you insist on manual thrust and get the speed slow. All the best to TCX in the fight for survival and if this helps it helps all the pilots. |
g109, care to back up your statement about BALPA and ptf with facts?
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