Abbey Road,

I think the BMI integration would lower the time to command. At least that's what BALPA have been saying!:P

FPP payscales join the DEP payscales at year 8.

By my sums, if you count the extra £12000 p/a 'bond repayment' payments during the last few years of that scale, FPP cadets will actually receive more money p/a than equivalent year DEP. Over the course of the 7 years they will of course receive less overall, but it's not a huge amount overall.

Stocious,

You're right there. Due to only paying income tax on the published GROSS salary from the FFP payscale chart. The £1000 per month is worked out similar to a mortgage repayment plan. Over the 7 years the £1000 per month is made up of an INTEREST and an CAPITAL REPAYMENT amount. Both totalling £1000.

In month one the ratio goes something like this:-

Interest payment -> £506.00
Captial repayment -> £494.00

In month 84 it's like this:-

Interest payment -> £15.00
Captial repayment -> £985.00

You pay no tax on the capital repayment portion (as it's your money coming back to you). However, you don't pay the full income tax on the interest payment only a "withholding tax" of 20%.

So as you rightly say although your gross is less the net figure is slightly higher.

If all goes according to plan, it should reduce the time to a longhaul command. In theory, this will also reduce the time to a shorthaul command as well as folks move across, although as shorthaul slots will progressively be given over to longhaul flying instead so this may not be quite as clear cut.

As Tay Cough points out, it may lower time to a longhaul command, but I think that will only be for a very brief period, and only for a few people. Of course, longhaul commands take substantially longer to achieve than the shorthaul commands.

I think BALPA have got it wrong. Airbus shorthaul is now overborne - due to the BMI integration, BA now has too many Airbus captains, and is offering limited voluntary redundancy to them (along with the 747 skippers) because there are too many of them. Very few are likely to take it up (and at least one man on the BA Company Council, who should have a good feel for this, believes that too!).

Why will this affect time to command? Because the ex-BMI skippers will likely sit on the Airbus for a long time, so there is a substantial portion of the fleet that will not 'move on'. The much-mooted (and yet to happen .....) longhaul expansion will be largely a one-time thing, but once the fleets stabilise from this expansion it will all be back at square one. The overarching influence to all this is the age-legislation and the taxation monster, which means that many skippers are staying on longer than even many of themselves thought they would. They want to put more value in to their pension pots, but they have to prevent the taxman getting his hands on substantial amounts too. It produces a strange dynamic which, when tied to their position at or near the top of a generous payscale, means they stay longer than they are prepared to publicly admit.

When the dust has settled, I do believe that BALPA's predictions will be well wide of the mark. There may be a very short-lived but modest acceleration to command, for some (a few) but when the concrete sets it will be back to the very long waiting for the vast majority. IMHO.

The entire premise behind the BMI integration was to enable the use of the BMI shorthaul slots for the more profitable Long Haul routes. As the current market for LH hulls is a little full with a couple of middle eastern airlines taking up much of the production line the ability to procure LH hulls is going to be a long one.

As the slots migrate across then the requirement for both RHS and LHS increases with the necessity for extra crewing per hull. BA envisage a substantial increase in pilot requirements leading to a reduction in time to command. Also the generated commands are not give 1:1 BA:BMI they are distributed at 10:1 BA:BMI due to the BMI pilot workforce being approximately 1/10th the size of BA thus increasing the potential command opportunities for BA SFO's.

We WILL NOT SEE INSTANT RESULTS! These transitions will take time. The biggest question is what is the time scale. Whilst the economic slump continues nobody knows. When the economy picks up the BA (under IAG but seperate from IB) will be in a position to expand its LH operations, for example to China where a new route has been announced today. There have been times in BA where pilots went direct from 2 rings to 4 and times when commands have taken 17+ years. It all depends when you join and the demographics of the airline.

We are just coming to the end of the 10 year retirement age increase and subsequent drag on the seniority system. Change will occur I would just challenge anyone to give a timescale on it.

Good luck!

IB have a lot of long haul hulls not making much money... :}

Very true!!!! I would suggest that if Keith Williams sees the 777 as 'old technology' then I would love to see what his comments on the A340 would be!!!!:E

Abbey Road has it on the money. There'll be a one time brief window of opportunity for those nearly in the frame for a long haul command but everyone else is screwed. It was clear early on that BALPAs sums didn't add up, hence their refusal to explain their working on the matter. In typical BALPA fashion the deal was given the hard sell, opposition to it was shouted down and belittled, and now they are coming up with endless excuses about why things aren't working out as they said they would. My favourite was 'Dear Leader' saying that he now regretted saying 'No BA pilot disadvantaged', the very axiom on which the deal was sold to members! Perhaps be should have said no BALPA rep disadvantaged?

If BA's time to command was 25 years, people would still queuing around the block....

The one certainty is that those joining today will be on much worse T&Cs when they become a captain compared to today's captains.

That's an interesting perspective FANS. Thinking like that may make the changes at BA easier to swallow, but I think it hides the true facts. BA is on the slide towards the Ts and Cs of it's competitors, as is the mentality of the management.

Whilst BA is doubtless an interesting prospective employer, the sad reality is it is far from head and shoulders above the rest these days. There are companies out there where you will earn more across your career, have better job security, be home every night, much shorter command time, work less etc etc (and I don't just mean outside the UK).

Of course people want different things, but for a lot of people BA is not the ultimate goal anymore because it no longer ticks most, let alone all, of the boxes.

FLR - BA has to have some alignment with its competitors, but it's still head and shoulders above almost all. I think its lastest FPP is still fantastic vis-a-vis what other UK based airlines are offering in today's climate.

BA should not be thought of as a dream job, and won't suit all individuals but for someone joining an airline today and wanting to be in the UK, it's the best place to be.

I agree FANS. Best job security going. Best variety of flying. Best pay in UK. Best rostering. Excellent staff travel packages worth a gross figure of at least £50,000 if used for long haul trips. OK pension. Excellent infrastructure and a good operating philosophy.

What a peculiar and arbitrary comment. Do you think there are many people in BA doing a £1000 equivalent flight per week on staff travel?

Well they're not really firm and they're not really Club or First class. You can still be offloaded, and if the premium cabins are full you will be down the back. If you don't have any nominees to travel with you you'll see far less benefit. If you have ten children you might see far more benefit. If you don't use your tickets to fly to long haul you'll benefit less perhaps? £50000 is a figure plucked out of the air and incorrectly equates an uncertain standby ticket in economy class with a firm commercial ticket in a premium class. What you are receiving is a very different service from that which the commercial passenger has paid for. You can guarantee that if staff travel really was worth £50K gross then you'd be paying 40% tax on that value to HMRC.

I can say that last year I used ST alot for the family and the total, when reckoned using full fare tickets, was in excess of £50000. However, that must be tempered with the reality that you might not get on and if the flight is full it becomes a ST lottery!! First class returns to SFO, HND, EZE, PVG and SIN. All confirmed, all on time and well looked after. Not once bumped.

However, 99% of the downroute hotels welcome family guests and offer fantastic discounts to BA staff when travelling on holiday and the route network encompasses most major cities world wide. Growing as we speak.

All told, not a bad benefit.

I don't mean or want to be confrontational, but saying BA "won't suit all individuals but for someone joining an airline today and wanting to be in the UK, it's the best place to be" does seem somewhat contradictory??

Other airlines (including in the UK) offer things that BA can't offer, simple as that. It may be heads and shoulders above the rest for you, based on your own set of personal career wishes, but I would be careful to subscribe to the idea that your personal wishes are shared universally.

Chocolateracer, I agree with some of what you say but not all -

Best job security going - looking at the financial histories of said companies it would be very easy to argue that the likes of the middle east airlines and even easyJet have better job security than BA (granted I ignore the Flexicrew issue at easyJet). I doubt there has been anytime at all since the formation of these companies that permanent employees have feared for their job security. That can certainly not be said for BA.

Best variety of flying- agreed.

Best pay in UK - on paper, but most probably not in reality under the new 34 year paypoint scheme when considered across a whole career. Granted it depends on several uncontrollable factors, least of all being time to command.

Let me prefix this back of a fag packet calculation argument with the assumption you make captain in 5 years at EZY. It is also only a comparison of short haul pay, which seems fair as someone choosing to fly for easyJet over BA would not be likely to have long haul flying at the top of their wish list.......
As a new joiner in BA you would need to be a captain with 19 years in the company to reach the same level of pay as a newly promoted captain with the orange brigade. Similarly an EZY captain with 10 years loyalty bonus earns the same as a 21 year captain at BA. At this point the EZY pay doesn't increase any more, so from year 21-34 you earn more at BA, but only an average of circa 12000 a year more for that 14 years. The average amount less earned in the preceding 21 years will be notably more (for example, a year 5 FO at BA would earn over 40,000 less in just that year than a 5 year captain at EZY).

The point here is not to try to be quantitative with numbers, because there are always going to be variables, but simply to be indicative in showing that BA is not necessarily the best paid job in the UK. In fact it is unlikely to be so. Similar although less compelling arguments could be made for Monarch with their rapid expansion and consequent relatively short time to command.

Best rostering - as long as you are senior. Debatable as a junior. Some
prefer bidding systems where seniority isn't the be all and end all, but a fairness system is used. Other airlines offer this and have happy employees as a consequence.

Excellent staff travel packages worth a gross figure of at least £50,000 if used for long haul trips - enough said by others on this, but doubtless a great package.

OK pension - agreed. Still pretty good by UK standards, but I am told that the pension deal at Virgin is better.

Excellent infrastructure and a good operating philosophy - agreed.

Like I said, I don't wish to be confrontational. I just think it is evident that whilst BA is still a great job it is not the stand out job it used to be.

FLR,

Money isn't everything! I would rather have a few years more in the RHS and less in the LHS on a LH fleet with BA then 5 years RHS, 40 LHS flying the Orange grind on the same routes in the same jet! Irrespective of the money!

As you say, horses for courses and doesn't affect me now anyway ;-)

FLR - I genuinely am intrigued and do not wish to be confrontational....

If you were to join a UK airline today on its current T&Cs, where is better than BA if you don't mind being based in the SE?


No one is saying it's the same job it was, but the industry is very different from 20 years ago anyway.

Let's not spend all night discussing staff travel merits or undertaking a verbal reasoning assessment:

won't suit all individuals but for someone joining an airline today and wanting to be in the UK, it's GENERALLY the best place to be" does seem somewhat contradictory?? word GENERALLY INSERTED

Wirbelsturm, I agree entirely. Hence why I wait patiently (but to no avail it would seem) in the BA hold pool despite having said prospects at easyJet.

Nonetheless, if I were given the chance to move to BA it would definitely not be the "no-brainer" decision that it used to be. That's all I am trying to say.

FANS - I think you missed my point. Airlines other than BA offer things that people are interested in, including several things BA can't offer. So for people wanting those things any airline can potentially be better. My point was the gap between what BA offers and what other airlines offer is not the chasm it once was, and consequently many people would be better suited elsewhere.

FLR,

A great post.

FLR , you re right, I don't understand your point. In the uk and particularly the SE, for airlines that have recently recruited why would "many people would be better suited elsewhere" ? Which are these airlines ?

FLR

Many people outside of BA don't completely understand the remuneration package, nor the associated lifestyle options available. That's entirely understandable. An important point to make is that very many BA pilots choose not to live in the SE of England (many don't even live in the UK!) though of course our job is based there.

Combined with the excellent staff travel package, fleet choices, and our worldwide network, the lifestyle and tax options are virtually limitless!

I cannot believe anybody looking at forty plus years of four sector days could view such a prospect as anything other than a stepping stone.

For that reason alone, the opportunities BA offer are ABSOLUTELY head and shoulders above anything else in the UK. The pilot retention figures are staggering for a reason!

The only caveat I would add, is that it does depend on one's age, and how much time one has 'invested' in another airline. Also, if you are happy to work in the desert/far east for bosses of a different culture, then by all means fill your boots. You'll earn the money.

Fair enough. Thanks for everyone's thoughts. It is never a black and white issue with things like this.

Merry Christmas to everyone.

Just to link this to the BA pilot volountary redundancies: The terms of those redundancy payouts would require no pilot being taken on prior to Oct 2013, in order for the payments to make sense. Frankly that will be a struggle, because we have no overall surplus of heads at the moment, we just have people sitting in the wrong seats!!

Two questions for Full Left Rudder:

1. How many pilots have voluntarily left EZY in the last 10 years to join BA?

2. How many pilots have voluntarily left BA in the last 10 years to join EZY?

1. Lots
2. Not many

But I am talking about now, not the past. If we could jump on 10 years from now and then re-ask these questions I suspect the chasm would be considerably smaller. I say this in light of the new 34 point pay scale, being shoved behind a bulge of some 400 odd places in the seniority list by the BMI deal, the increased workload recently imposed on BA pilots, the unfortunate position of now bring tied at the hip with a money pit of an airline in the form of Iberia etc.

Again, BA is still a good prospect. But not leaps and bounds ahead of the rest anymore for people considering joining the company.

Fifteen years ago I did the sums. I was a Captain in a regional airline owned by KLM. After lots of deliberation I accepted the job with BA and joined on the 777. I thought I would take a pay cut to move but was pleasantly surprised to see that, with all the extra bits and pieces, I was soon taking home more than I had done previously. After five years I took a command on the 737. Big pay rise and fun flying. After a couple of years of that my circumstances changed and I moved abroad. When my 737 freeze expired I thought what now? How about the jumbo. Back to the RHS and a small pay cut but now quite senior. Cape Town and Hong Kong every month. Fantastic. Four years later. Bored with the RHS. How about go part time and get a command on the Airbus. Huge network, loads of interesting nightstops or shorter day trips if preferred.

That is one of the beauties of BA. so many opportunities. Whatever you want to do, long haul, short haul, management, training, full time, part time. Live anywhere in the world, it's all available.

There were only 332 BMI pilots at the time of the merger and not all chose to transfer.Some took redundancy rather than move. I would guess less than 300 will eventually stay. It is possible some will take the VR that is on offer.

If you are talking about the collective combination of the bmi pilots and new DEP joiners you are possibly talking about 400 places on the seniority list since time of application and stage one assessment. Plus a move from PP24 to PP34 in this time. Recollecting the recruiters buzz phrases of 'seniority is everything in BA' and 'seniority equals lifestyle,' I can understand where FLR is coming from. Not that it matters now for those in the pool anyway.

Happy Xmas to all my fellow swimmers. :ok:

The latest info to come from company management suggests that the 90+ FPP's that will join BA from Q3 2013 through 2014 will provide all new entrants for this period. Following this, the 70 or so additional FPP's that are about to be selected will start joining the airline from early 2015 onwards. It is envisaged that these recruits will make up approximately 50% of the new entrants, with the remainder to come from DEP. Therefore as things currently stand recruitment for DEP's will re-commence late 2014 at the very earliest.
Beyond 2015 retirements will begin to pick up, and there is also the expected growth in LH hulls. With any luck this will be the time when recruitment really starts to kick in.

Next year 50 commands are planned, with 1000+ F/O's it will take a new joiner 20 years to command. A bit pessimistic probably, but I would count on at least 10 years.

Everyone should know that BA is not some oasis, but I'm struggling with where all of these people think is so much better in 2012.

Well, I don't think EZY will stick with 200 airframe. The expansion may have stop for now but unlike BA,AF,LH, easy has the potential to double its size. Ryanair has over 300 planes and I think ezy will match at least that.
20 years to command would mean ezy has financial problems which is quite the opposite right now. 10 years is Unrealistic. Unlike BA, easy has no seniority system. If you join has an experienced FO with enough hours you can join the queue for command straight away. If you join as a cadet it will take at least 4-5 years before having the hours to join the queue. So if you were referring to cadets, yes, it may get close to 10 years for now, but 7-8 more likely.
How many FO's are in BA? How many FO's eligible for command are in EZY?
You will find more people's leaving than the national career and still some retiring.
Anyway, both are different but excellent airlines to work for.
I would personally choose BA as a cadet and easy as an experienced FO, but hey, we are all different :rolleyes:

All the best for 2013 :ok: