Hand Solo,
Your posts beggar belief.
Just exactly why do you consider that you are worth more than the salary you are receiving now?? There is no such thing as "a pilot does this, so he is worth that" Sorry to pi*s on your parade but the piloting profession works in the same way as every other industry; i.e supply and demand. OK, so you can fly a plane, but then so can thousands of others, many unemployed, and ready to step into your shoes old boy. If you are not happy with your lot, then pi*s off and go do something else, probably for a quarter of the salary you are presently receiving. There really is some sort of infection that turns many (but not all) BA pilots into pompous, arrogant, selfish prats these days. Crews in other carriers get on with their lives and are thankful for the opportunities presented to them, but not in BA, oh no! Grow up little boy, the world in general, and the aviation world in particular, is a harsh place, and you are in a very fortunate position compared to many, but you are either too stupid to realise that fact, or too arrogant to care. AA, Delta, KLM etc get more....so go and get a job there then, but then you can't can you? so that argument is totally and utterly irrelevent. Go out and do something, instead of all this whinge, whinge, whinge we seem to get on these forums these days. Don't bother to reply. I'm sick of your self righteous bull*hit.

Wow you really have got a chip on your shoulder Basil! This may spoil your rant Basil but the pilot industry does not work like every other industry, unless every other industry works on 'wait in turn' seniority. I can't think of any others, can you? Supply and demand doesn't work when its skewed by the golden handcuffs of seniority. Why shouldn't I think I'm worth more than my salary now? If Easyjet are paying more for people with the same qualifications and experience to do the same work as me is it because they are feeling particularly benevolent towards the pilot community, or because thats what they think the market rate is? There may be thousands of others waiting to step into my shoes and do my job for less, but they can't because we have a union and laws to prevent that, just like I can't go do the same to KLM or Lufthansa pilots, so your argument is totally and utterly irrelevant. If I wasn't happy I would **** off and do something else, probably my previous profession, especially as I now earn a quarter of what my former colleagues do. The world is a very harsh place, I enjoy what I do and I worked hard to get it, so I'm not going to let some embittered old whinger like you tell me I should earn less. As for pompous and arrogant, well you really should go back and read your own post.

Why not stop the BA bashing?
 

I'd like to add a measured response to this thread, which is largely negative, but I'm sure it won't ring true with all that read it. However, here goes...

I like British Airways, they are MY favourite airline and I choose to fly with them over the low-costs because experience has shown me that they offer a great service. It might not be to everybody's liking, but on a planet with 5 billion people we have 5 billion different opinions and 5 billion different personalities so I don't think we'll ever find something that EVERYBODY likes. This might be a passenger perspective but I honestly believe the same principle applies behind the scenes in the airline, if not all the airlines.

This thread is full of arguments, slander and cutting remarks and I think it's a shame that BA gets such an enormous bashing from all angles on this forum. Why do people seem to think that BA needs to be accused of this and that and HAVE to do this and that.... with an enormous workforce the company will NEVER keep everybody happy. FACT. Tell me a company where everybody is happy and would not change a thing?

It seems odd to me that some pilots can come on this forum and tell us all how awful they think the company is.. but will still gladly accept the paycheck at the end of the month. The company is far from perfect but they are still offering good, exciting jobs. If you personally feel the situation is terrible, get up tomorrow, sit down at the computer and type your resignation letter. Hand it in after your day's work, fulfill your contractually obliged number of flights and then enter the wild job market of today which is horribly saturated not only with eager young low-hours pilots, but also highly experienced guys and girls who have sadly been laid off from other carriers (GOOD LUCK to all you guys looking for jobs right now!)

Someone said on this thread that they couldn't go to a low-cost carrier because of the pension they would be leaving behind.. what kind of an 'excuse' is that? That argument says that it's all about money, but that's not what life is about. If people want more money, then why not go and work for another carrier who offers higher salaries in the short-term? If money is all that is important then why not quit flying and go into IT or fund managing? They pay well, and you wouldn't have to put up with 'poor rostering' etc.

BA offers a unique kind of career to men and women from all over the world. For pilots you can join and fly modern jets from the A319 to the 777, fly all over the world AND be paid to do it. Does the thrill of the job really not shine through for some people anymore? If not, just go (no pun intended).

Salaries around the world will vary, that's life. Doctors in the UK and the USA get paid vastly different salaries, but the US system is very different to ours. Oh, and that reminds me.. is the USA's road to entering a major international airline not considerably more onerous than that in the UK? It is for some... couple of thousand hours before a regional will look at you, couple more before you get a sniff of a major? Arguing that British pilots should get paid the same as US guys is silly really. British pilots should get paid what the employer wants to pay them, that's how business works. Again, if you don't like it, don't enter the profession.

As for striking.. well this is something that really stirs my emotions. Striking is a terrible thing to do as far as I am concerned. Sure you grab attention for a short while, but THINK about the knock on effects: the passengers you can trouble and inconvenience if a flight is cancelled, the money you could cost the airline and the damage to an airline's reputation that could be caused. If you damage a company's repuation so much that no-one wants to use them anymore that company could cease to exist... and woop, there go your jobs.

Instead of getting angry on these forums why not put pen to paper and write to the relevant people in your company and suggest ways for them to save money, or ways for things to be improved. I am a firm believer that some of the best ideas for company management come from the workers themselves.. not the graduate managers who have degrees in business studies but have never, and do not, work down on the company floor.

You could write and say, Dear Advertising Dept: why don't you launch a nationwide campaign advertising your amazing low fares which start at £63 return between (say) Glasgow and Heathrow. Let people know that they can get exactly where they want to go for almost no money! Or why not invite business people to try the new BA Club World service for half the price of the usual ticket, for a limited time? Or how about asking PR/Media students at university to prepare projects on how to improve profitability on a loss-making route? So many ideas, these not relating to the things you guys need changed in flight ops... why not try it?

British Airways should still be the symbol of national pride it once was. It is in all our interests for the company to carry on and succeed. For me, I will still be able to fly home to my family feeling safe in the hands of some of the best trained pilots and cabin crew in the world. For you, ladies and gentlemen, British Airways will still employ the 3000 fight crew who would otherwise be sending out CVs.. hoping to find a job.

Some food for thought I hope. Replies would be welcome but I'd rather people didn't snipe if there are any inaccuracies. This is just my opinion. Share with me yours?

Well I'm glad you feel that way about BA Tucano. I think you'd find most BA pilots are very proud of the good aspects of the company and work very hard to ensure the company is a success. As you rightly put it, no BA, no job. We are also mostly shareholders so when the company performs badly, it hits us in the pocket too, not to mention concerns about job security.

What gets most BA pilots backs up (apart from the endless BA bashing on this forum) is the fact that within BA the problems are all too often laid at the pilots door because thats easier than dealing with the real problems in the company. We'd like nothing more than to see the inefficiencies stripped out of the company so that we can get on with the business of being a world leading airline, but that creates far too much industrial unrest for the managers comfort. BA needs radical reform, and its a testimony to the efficiency and productivity to the Flight Operations department that so little fat could be found to strip out in the F S &S review. The Flight Ops department has led the way in internal efficiency and cost saving whilst other areas of the company have been profligate in their spending, yet its our door they come knocking on for savings. If other departments are working so hard then why did it take marketing 6 months to decide to offer a seat sale when Ryanair did it in six days? Why has it taken years to point out that we can be as affordable as the low cost airlines? Most people on the front line at BA can tell the company how to make savings and do, but its a drop in the ocean compared to the vast waste of resources which come from some of waterworlds madcap schemes.

The direction this thread has taken is a result of the personal experience of many who have joined BA and found it hasn't lived up to the promise. Why shouldn't they tell other people how BA is? Would you prefer we didn't point out that DEPs will struggle to achieve a command, that morale is low? If you want to join BA for reasons of roster stability or pension or fleet variety, then so be it, but at least people will know what they're getting themselves into and won't be disappointed. Perhaps people should resign if they don't like it? Unfortunately its not as easy as that for those with family commitments who will have to take a significant pay cut in the short term in order to improve their prospects in the long term. There aren't many people who want to leave BA, it has been a great airline in the past and we all hope that it will build on that for the future. The problem is that from where we're sitting we just can't see it improving. Nothing ever seems to be done to stop the rot in the company, and every week we're targeted to sacrifice even more. Money isn't everything, but lifestyle is and people are tired of constantly being the bogeymen in the companies eyes (cue usual anti-BA rantings, you should be grateful, I'm on the dole, xxxx is paid less the usual stuff)

This brings me on to the emotive subject of striking, a word that most BA pilots will grimace on hearing. Nobody wants that, nobody. Those who were involved in the last dispute remember the threatening phone calls from managers, the extreme pressure, the uncertainty and stress. It is not a pleasant experience, nor a course of action to be pursued lightly. But what option is there when all negotiations have failed? The pilot market isn't like the IT market. Before the slowdown you could walk out of a well paid job in the IT industry and straight into another. That can't be done in the flying industry because of seniority rules and incremental pay scales. The day everyone is paid the same regardless of length of service we'll see true mobility of labour, which is exactly what the airlines want to avoid and why we'll never see it. So what do you suggest?

Non pilots, please stop trying to tell us that "it's the market", and "go and get another job". Unfortunately, the aviation industry works on seniority and incremental pay scales. After a few years in one company, moving to another means a significant pay drop, unlike most people, who leave for a payrise!
Sure eventually the market works it out, but by that time we're in another boom, or maybe another bust, or just to throw a spanner in the works, Bin Liner comes along. Just t'ain't the same as leaving your city desk on Friday for a new one up the road on Monday!:confused:

Nice, well thought out, replies.

Well done chaps.

Tucano

Been there done that, in my exeprience no manager in BA is interested in any ideas from the shop floor unless they agree with his own ideas.

I notice that Britain is now ranked 30th in the world for the competance of its senior managers (International Institute for Management Developement - World Competitiveness Yearbook). BA flying the flag again?

Hand Solo

I can assure you that aircrew in BA are not the only group within BA who are continually put down by the mangement.

It is sad to see that FSS has failed (are we really surprised?) the 'new' management team is just the same old faces in different roles - something about rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic springs to mind.

:mad:

Hand Solo

You might be paid less than easyJet but thats because you dont work as hard..................Like to see you guys turn a 737 in 25 minutes four times each duty. I suspect those down the road in GO and Ryanair will be thinking the same.

Someone once said that if the pilots stop moaning about their terms and conditions then the airline really is in trouble so I guess BA is doing OK!

Hand Solo, Slickster,

You really don't get it do you???

You CHOSE to enter an industry with pay, promotion, fleet opportunities etc. predicated on seniority. Let me say that again for the hard of understanding amongst you....it was YOUR CHOICE. Nobody held a gun to your head and said "you must fly for BA" or indeed any other airline at all for that matter. So all these selfish statements about T's & C's not being as lucrative as "Un" Easyjet shows you up for what you are, and your sort is not uncommon in the BA of today. Pity. Personally I earn less than a BA pilot, a lot less after factoring in the difference in flying hours, but that is not important to me, I fly because I get tremendous satisfaction from the job. You may feel the same, but then thats just not enough for you is it?? Why do BA pilots think they should be on the first row of the grid where pay and conditions are concerned? Many good airlines out there employing skilled and experienced crews, as good as BA pilots for sure, but they earn less. Why are you different? You will get what your company pay you, if you are unhappy i will repeat...DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!! If BALPA don't have the motivation or the ability to improve your lot then thats just too bad isn't it? Let me say now that I am a great admirer of BA, they gave me my first break into the airline industry and was there 7 years, and my Dad flew for them for 30 years. I know that there is a chronic overstaffing with managers and paper shufflers in Waterworld (and indeed the Compost centre as well) but why do the pilots not lead by example? Instead you look more and more like arrogant, selfish, self serving grabbers...This is how a lot of others in the company see you, including Engineering, who have suffered very much longer and harder than you ever have. STOP LOOKING AT THE FEW ABOVE YOU, AND START LOOKING AT THE MANY BELOW........get some perspective, for *****sake.

JetGirl

You are barking up the wrong tree. Here in BAR we work plenty hard and are no strangers to split duties, max FDP, discretion and 5-sector days. Your argument does not apply, we work equally as hard as the low-cost, for less.

Basil

Stick to the silly walks - your silly postings make no sense. BA pilots can whinge as much as they like. If you don't accept that, go to another thread! Everything has perspective, you can't fault Hand Solo for having a different view to yourself.

Well at least Basil has finally shown his true colours and brought out his 'engineers earn less than you' line. Well all your arguments apply to them as well Basil. Every now and then someone comes on to this forum and gives us that spiel, so let me remind oyu once again that is is the Professional Pilots Rumour Network. Guests welcome, but if you don't want to discuss pilot things, don't come here. You obviously think most BA pilots (or at least me!) are ignorant, but you are wrong. Contrary to your belief we do 'get it'. You're right, nobody forced a gun to our heads, but if/when we start flexing some industrial muscle for better pay and conditions I bet you'll be the first on here criticising us and accusing us of greed. I'm actually pleased for you that you are in a position where you can do your job for enjoyment alone, it must be very gratifying. The rest of us do it to keep the roof over our heads. Why shouldn't BA pilots expect to be on the first level for pay?

Exactly what example would you like us to lead by? We've already self-financed a redundancy deal for our F/Es, changed rostering rules once again to improve productivity, changed crew rest rules to allow services to continue to a couple of 'hotspots' in the world, introduced new flight planning systems to save millions in fuel costs, reduced and compressed sim checks to save cash, accepted swingeing cuts in Ts & Cs in the regions to pay for new aircraft (theres a novelty, all regional staff fund the companys new aircraft out of own pockets, company takes cash and doesn't produce aircraft), cut crew meals, turned off lifts and escalators to save cash,etc etc. I could go on and on with cost saving initiatives led by flight ops. Or perhaps you mean more touchy-feely lead from the front, being 'senior manager on board' stuff, fostering good CRM with the cabin crew and ground staff, eliminating the stuffy and pompous attitudes of the minority old guard. Do you mean sending all new FOs to different business sections of the company to get an understanding of the operation, or doing the same with new skippers, so that all are better 'on-the-day operations managers' (both initiatives now cancelled of course to save cash), sending pilots to LATCC and LHR tower and bringing ATCOs on famil flights and into the simulators. Tell me, because I really am at a loss to understand, what exactly do you think BA pilots should do before they deserve a raise? (and don't say work harder because a fair chunk of our workforce is finding its roster restricted by CAP371 at the moment). I have absolutely no intention of following you suggestion of 'getting a perspective'. Nobody ever improved their lot by looking down instead of looking up. If the people you consider 'below' me don't like it then they can always have a crack at doing my job. After all, its really easy to get into, and nobodys forcing them to do what they do.

JetGirl- I can't turn a 737 around in 25 mins four times each duty because I don't fly one, and as far as I know Easy and Go guys don't do it either because they only do a max of four sectors in a day. However I can and frequently have turned around an A319 in less than 25 mins four times each duty. The only reason our standard turnaround is 40 mins is because it takes longer to board pax with with preassigned seating, we have to load 126 meals + bars and we have cleaners clean the aircraft properly (yes that means hoovering and under the seat squabs too) instead of getting the cabin crew to have a cursory clean up. If you know of any Easyjet or Go guys who've worked 11 5 sector days in a month in addition to the usual load of 4 sectors with only 10 days off then I'm keen to know how they did it cos our guys were absolutely shagged after that month.

It is true that BAR work just about as hard as I do in Go. I have a good friend in BAR on the minibus. Our rosters look pretty similar as do our pay cheques. My hours are a little less palatable is the biggest difference.

I think the vast vast majority of non-BA airline pilots in the UK want to see BA's T&C's improved.

WWW

Hand Solo,

You're postings display absolute clarity (of thought and in writing).

I applaud you.

Pls keep it up.:)

Just as an aside on turnaround times.

At Go (and Buzz) there is pre-assigned ticketed seating for 148 pax (higher density than BA). More often than not the bars have to changed (domestic to international are different).

On board cleaning down route is by the cabin (and sometimes flightcrew) but on return to base the cleaners come on board with hoovers etc. The cabin crew also have to cash up their on board sales.

We operate BA procedures for briefing, checklists, walkarounds etc. So; things aren't actually much easier than in full service.

Its not black magic to do a 25min turnaround and I am sure BA pilots do it just like anyone else. It usually depends on the pax - 148 off, 148 on in 25 mins really is very hard. Often as not the flightdeck is waiting for the pax/loadsheet than the other way around.

Then you cop a 30 minute slot or 4 times around the hold at TALLA and you wonder why you bothered! :rolleyes:

Oh and BTW we actually have a six sector day.

WWW

BA
 

I'm surprised at how unhappy many BA pilots there are - I work for BA as a Waterside person (jeez should I duck now??) and have always wanted to be a pilot.

I am taking voluntary redundancy in order to fund my own training after which I will earn less than I do now for a couple of years. I'm doing it because I have always loved flying and it worries me that several of you would probably tell me to stay put in view of the decline in your terms and conditions! On the other hand after a degree and 11 years experience of IT and project Management including 7 years in BA I take home just short of £2500 a month, get 26 days leave a year and have 8 days leave a month on average. I know a SFO on 747's with 7 years experience who takes home £4000-£4500 a month, gets more leave and most importantly isn't bored at work!

If it's any consolation FS&S has been pretty severe in the back office with around 1/3 of Managers cut so it is totally incorrect to call it a failure. If you believe BA has an overmanned back office then it seems to me FS&S is addressing that quite well.

Maybe you need to sit in a department where people are seriously worried about their job security and whether they can continue paying their mortgage to get some perspective.

Desk-pilot

Desk pilot has it right. BA crews (mainline that is!) have just about the nearest thing you can get in professional flying to a job for life. Enjoy it, its a priviledge many others do not have.

Hand Solo, you still go on and on about putting a roof over your head etc. but you are managing to do that already aren't you? Oh, perhaps you want a new Bentley every year, earn enough to maybe take 3 holidays a year without having to rely on staff travel to get you there, send your kids to good public schools etc etc....You really come across as a greedy SOB, maybe you'll have to cut back on one meal out per week.....oh, the hardship!!
BTW,****, if you read the homepage for this site it says it is open to ANYONE with an interest in aviation..... not just pilots (although i do hold an ATPL so i guess i qualify anyway) so its obvious where your priorities lie... a keen advocate of the "I'm alright Jack, so **** you" mentality. With posts like yours I'm absolutely amazed that you can't understand the negative tone of the replies you and BA posts in general receive!! Try giving out some sympathy for a change instead of these pathetic tales of woe...reminds me of the joke "why is a BA pilot like a daffodil?...Ans- "Nice to look at, but can't take much rough treatment!" I am not against the salary you receive now or any improvement per se, but where exactly is the money going to come from??? BA is in the ****. Are you advocating that someone else should lose his job, not pay his mortgage, not feed his kids etc. in order that you should get a pay rise to what you FEEL you are worth?? I know that some people are perhaps not so intrinsically vital to the operation as a pilot, but they have a life just the same as you dear boy, and if you are not prepared to share a little in these hard times then that just shows you up as a greedy little **** doesn't it?? As for your comments on the engineers, well, let me just say that if you didn't have engineers to fix the A/C, or signing CRS's etc. then you would have no aircraft to fly, so they are just as vital as you are in the grand scheme of things. They earn a lot less than you do, so if anyone deserves a pay rise and improvements to working conditions first then they do, NOT YOU.

Don't get too excited about the pay desk-pilot, I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times I've taken home £2500 or more in the years I've worked for BA (but at least I enjoy my work). You may only have 8 days leave per month, but I bet its all on weekends, something which most pilots very rarely achieve. Plus are your 26 days leave all weekdays? I'm only entitled to 30 weekdays of leave all year (I have little say in when I take them either), and I work unsociable hours and public holidays. I've no interest in starting an 'I'm worse off than you' argument, but sweeping generalisations about how a 744 SFO earns sooo much cash just cloud the issue. Not everybody earns that, and I know shorthaul Captains who earn a darn sight less than that. What price do you place on being home for Christmas or family events, not being thousands of miles away when things go wrong, not being constantly jet lagged, not facing the suden end of your career due to a common medical complaint at any time?

I have every personal sympathy for the people at Waterside who face losing their jobs, but to play devils advocate here one could say that as it seems the airline will continue to function without then why were their positions ever necessary? We've employed too many people for too long, thats whats dragged the company down.

Good luck with your endeavours at Oxford, it'll be a long, hard road and you've made a brave decision to go for it. I hope you complete that course and soon find yourself sitting in the RHS of the aircraft of your choice. However once you're there, with a mortgage to pay, family to feed and a big training debt to service, take time out from enjoying the job to assess the financial risks you face, and the relative levels of personal responsibility between your new job and your old one. You may find yourself surprised.

Edited to say I posted this before reading Basils ridiclulous, vitriolic rant. Basil I have no qualm with engineers being paid much more, but its not my job to fight their corner. Furthermore when they can present a case for pay restructuring to the company which represents ZERO NET INCREASE IN THE DEPARTMENTAL BUDGET like ours I'm sure they'll have the full support of flight crew without accusations of greed and self-interest being levelled. Until that happens I suggest you take a valium and do domething to suppress your obvious hatred and prejudices against BA flight crew.

Basil - you are stepping out of line. Curb your language - asteriks don't count.

If you want to bash BA pilots for some reason do it with biting insight and searing reason. It works much better and avoids making you seem like a prat.

Cheers

WWW

Hand Solo. Another factual, accurate, eloquent, articulate and amusing post - WELL SAID.

Suggest you go thrash your Austin Allegro with a tree branch, Basil.

Hand, may I also applaud you on your usual well constructed and eloquent posting. How you manage to restrain yourself despite the drivel from the likes of Basil amazes me. (PS Have u married that doc yet...or am I on the wrong trail)

Basil.....no, I wont even bother.

Moderator: do we have guidelines on the posting of vulgar abuse such as displayed by Basil. I would be interested to hear what he has to say if it weren't for the expletives. I vote for banning until he grows up.

Thanks chaps, always reassuring to know that I'm not alone in my thinking!

Soup-I think you're on the wrong trail there but if you know any attractive female doctors then feel free to direct them to me c/o the BHX Eurohub!:D

<<Suggest you go thrash your Austin Allegro with a tree branch, Basil.>>

It was actually a Morris 1300... sad... but true!!

Thanks for the good wishes
 

Hand-Solo,

Many thanks for the informed and interesting comments - I look forward to flying with you one day at the sharp end.

Re: pilot pay it seems it is very variable from what you write. It also seems impossible to get hold of any indicative salary scales (if only to calm my wife's fears!) so if anyone has a copy they don't mind emailing I'm on [email protected]

Thanks for the good wishes re: the course and career change. I feel exhilerated and terrified all at once so your words are greatly appreciated.

Desk-pilot

As a lowly charter driver in the open market I think it is an ill wind that blows the Nigels from their lofty perch.As the flag carrier we need BA to set the standard in terms and conditions for the rest of the industry.What chance do we mere mortals have of negotiating wages upwards when our managers can point to Nigel and say"Well BA don't get that much"?
Now don't go thinking that you are somehow more worthy of extra cash because of your superior lego building skills Nigel,it's just that we need those flagship terms to counter the ever increasing downward pressure on the market.
As for Basil and the "your choice"mob.Well we could all have chosen to be internet millionares but we didn't!.We therefore have a professional obligation to defend our terms and salaries from our unique locked in seniority system. We all love to fly but should never use that as some kind of pay off for accepting an erosion in pay.We don't all have hotels in Torquay to supplement our income!

Basil Faulty
 

I have better things to do than deal with the language in your posting. Far easier for me to delete the post or simply close and move the whole thread.

On this occaision I have tidied it up.

soup dragon, we do indeed ! I have just received other complaints of this post. The post has been edited and that will suffice for this occurence.

Now back to what I was doing... and on with the thread.

I deny all knowledge of this so called 'HOMER SIMPSONS LOVE CHILD'. I am devoted to my wife Marge and my three children Bart, Lisa and ......??? oooooh Doughnut !

Jetdriver, WWW, BA pilots & anyone else who has followed this thread!!
First of all I would like to apologise to those on here who feel ill at ease with my use of shall we say "earthy" language. I thought that you were all able to take it, I guess I was wrong!
However I DO NOT apologize for my views...
I DO NOT HATE or have PREJUDICE AGAINST BA OR ITS FLIGHTCREW. One of my best friends is a retd BA 747 skipper. The whole point, as I stated previously (and my point seemingly ignored) is; How on earth can BA crews expect a significant pay rise here and now? The company is on its knees!! They appear to prefer to see other people made redundant from a very, very average salary to £53 per week jobseekers allowance in order to fund an increase to what they feel they ought to be paid! Hand Solo keeps telling us about cutbacks here and there and the "sacrifices" made by pilots, but giving the cash saved straight back out in salaries again defeats the object somewhat doesn't it? As I STATED PREVIOUSLY there are certainly too many managers/pen pushers/papershufflers and the like draining resourses. This problem is very historic in nature, but is now finally being addressed and hopefully a leaner, less wasteful BA will emerge in the future and this will be to everyones benefit. If BA guys are saying that savings should be made in flight ops or in any other department just to fund a pay rise that the flightcrew would like, then I think that is supremely selfish, and I'm entitled to say that! Yes, pilots deserve to be very well paid for what they do, but whinging and moaning about it right now in these troubled times just paints all you BA pilots posting here in one light....a tad GREEDY. The pilots at BA I feel sorry for are the new starters, probably on a 'C' scale, and as rightly pointed out, will probably not make the LHS of a 747 unless they are under 30 today. I could suggest that the senior guys can perhaps "self fund" a payrise for their junior collegues if it worries them that much. I don't see charity quite stretching that far somehow!


I have tried insight and reason in argument on many occasions in the past. It doesn't work too well in the face of the "BA establishment" on here, all ready and willing to stick up for one another when an opinion or statement is posted, the contents of which they do not like by criticising them in some way. These guys have their own forum, I request that they go off and whinge/moan/congratulate each other in private. What else is it there for? I will not contribute on such subjects again, I can see I'm wasting my time....Brings to mind the old saying, "There are none so blind as those who do not want to see" Well, BA guys,I'd probably respect your opinions a lot more if you didn't readily dismiss mine out of hand. We can all learn something.....YES, EVEN YOU!!

I guess by your apology Basil you may slip further down the moderators' removal list! It was timely and you seem calmer now!

However the fact remains that times are really not that troubled and BA is now seriously short of pilots.

In a shortage of something, the price goes up. I see nothing wrong in striving, in a small way, to drag the BA pilot salary UP to the market rate. I have LOST income by joining BA from a major UK charter airline - you may well ask why! The fact that I made a choice does not prevent me from trying to improve my T's & C's for the benefit of my family - which is why I work for a living.

If you wish to undermine my intentions, and those of my colleagues such as Hand Solo, you will meet with determined and implacable opposition from us wherever you choose to post on this forum.

Slightly confused - the BA crews on this thread are pleading poverty compared to the other UK airlines, But if you go to the "Punctuality before safety: Chirp reports on a Low Cost Airline" in Reporting Points, Secret Squirrel seems to be saying that BA have much better T & C's than the 'no frills'
Who's telling porkies?

:confused:

Well I'm not. Some people may make that sort of cash at LHR, but it all depends on:

1) Basic pay (old A scale, DEP B scale or CEP B scale, there could easily be £20K difference in basic alone between these). Plus you may be a trainer so there's another increment.

2) Allowances. These depend on how good your roster is, more lucrative trips means a bigger pay packet, but they can be incredibly variable. A very good month might be £1500 to an FO, but a bad month could be £400. Or nothing if you've been on leave, reserve, sick. The flip side is the more time you spend away from home to get those allowances, the bigger your Diners Club bill at the end of the month, so you can knock several hundred quid off those figures.

3) Seniority. This is broadly linked to your basic pay scale, and dictates your ability to bid for the trips that will get you the most allowances, if that is how you choose to bid. It also allows you to achieve more time off if you want to bid for it, so that you will be more often be available for.....

4) Overtime. Nice if you can get it, but I'm usually far too busy.

One of the main problems with pay in BA is that due to the anachronistic system of pay and various allowances there can be enormous variations in pay on some fleets within just a few seniority points. There are plenty of senior long haul FOs earning more than junior short haul captains, and in some cases junior long haul captains. On top of that the pay system distorts the bidding process as people are compelled to bid for what will earn them enough cash rather than what they actually want to do, which means senior guys endless moaning about how bad NRT is (whilst raking in the cash) whilst the junior guys are stuck in Lagos for the fifth time that month on £2.80 per day.

BA recruitment
 

I was recently flying with a DEP of about 3 years in BA. We worked out since his time in BA he had lost about £ 200,000 (yes two hundred grand) by leaving his previous employer. This consisted of salary differential as he was a capt. in his old company, plus he had to forego some healthy share options. He as 2nd in command of a 747-400 was paid less than many of his own cabin crew.

For those that think they might have cracked it by joining BA on its major fleets ie 744 or 777, think again. The pay is the same as an A319, and you will be stuck at the bottom of the list getting the worst rosters for years. The plus side is that yes, you will eventually be a Longhaul capt in big airways, but is it worth the sacrifice. The gamble is , will things improve, I doubt it if you believe management when they say they get killed in the rush when the do recruit.

Regards All.:(

Tucano:

"British Airways should still be the symbol of national pride it once was."

For those of us with defective memories could you just remind us precisely when this was?

"It is in all our interests for the company to carry on and succeed."

I would agree that for BA shareholders and employees it is in their interests that the company should succeed but why should the rest of us view BA any differently from, for example, BMI or easyJet?

To set the record straight about dosh ...... I'm a DEP on the Airbus at LHR, joined 2 years ago and averaged a take home last year of £2850 ....... Like many I took a pay cut to come here and threw away a jet command.

The overiding reason I joined was LIFESTYLE ...... I NEVER have a roster change unless its to take a trip off me and give me the day off ..... the only downside is approx 1.5 21 day reserve periods per year of being messed about.

The bid system favours seniority, which although I have as an FO on this fleet due my age (mid 30's) I will never have it on any other fleet, especially as a Capt. ...... BUT even on a 'blind line' I get to ask for days off and most people get 75% of what they ask for .... Most other companys do not even offer that ....

I will retire about 1200 seniority, probably never see a long haul command .....

If you have never flown out of LHR before on shorthaul think carefully .... Its hassle to get in and out from, hassle getting to and from the a/c and park park etc ..... although a lot of 4/5 day tours on the airbus if you don't mind being away ......

Another reason for me joining was the lure of a good final salary pension retiring at 55 ..... BUT if that has now gone think carefully before signing on the dotted line ....

Also, now the City Flyer guys are on the main list seniority and loads of people under 30 you may wait 8-10 years now days for a LHR shorthaul command ...... (was about 6 years if you joined 2 years ago ...) ....

Think carefully ..... Lifestyle is good BUT seniority and pension issues, plus huge impersonal company .... never fly with same people ....... ???

At present, I would only be too glad to be able to worry about who to sign for and who offered the best pay and conditions. Aged 19 (admittedly very young and probably overly concerned), I cannot see any way of realising my life long dream. There is no news of any airline (except klmuk) resuming sponsorship schemes and for the vast majority these schemes are realistically the only way we will ever be able to fly.

To have a hope of having a decent career covering a few a/c types and progressing from RHS to LHS and from shorthaul to longhaul, you need to join an airline before you are 30, maybe slightly earlier! I plan to go out and work after uni and save every penny, but if I need to save £80,000 to pay for my training it will never happen.

I would give my right leg (which would somewhat hamper a flying career) for the airlines to restart sponsorship schemes. A few years ago, BMI, Air 2000, KLMuk, BE, BA, Airtours, Aer Lingus and a few others all ran schemes and between them probably trained 300 - 400 students a year.

From where I am sitting (a grotty university computer lab) a shorthaul RHS on the Airbus fleet at LHR sounds like a dream come true, let alone a RHS for BE in a RJ100 or KLMuk on a F50. Frankly, as long as I could afford to pay a mortage, eat, clothe a family, and save the pennies to cover the supposed pension crisis, the rest is just trimmings. I would rather be flying than do a 9-5 desk job in London earning £60,000+ a year. I simply wouldn't be happy!

Fingers crossed the industry continues to pick up, that the airlines resume their sponsorship schemes, that the government doesn't drag its feet for another 8 years, like they did with T5, before granting more runways in the southeast, that Stephen Byers is sacked so that the transport department can get on with its job, and that I win the lottery and will not need to rely on sponsorship to fulfil my dreams.

Alpha Charlie:

What idiocy is this? You want to do the job for expenses only? Its fools like you that have seen pay in the industry reduced year on year for far too long already. I love flying, I really do, but I'm not prepared to see my profession sold down the river by people such as yourself.

The required training, the cost of said training, and the level of responsibility invloved in doing the job should determine the pay rate. Comparing pilots to other professions, I believe on those grounds we should be earning more than the average lawyer or accountant, and slightly less than the average doctor.

Lots of people want to be doctors - university places are massively oversubscribed, yet you don't hear people suggesting Doctors should have their salary reduced as a result. So don't do yourself and your potential colleagues down like that.

And to all of you namby-pamby tree-hugging types who'll tell me off for snapping at the guy on his first post - its you lot that seem able to rant for pages about how bad it is for BA CitiExpress to undercut BA mainline pilots, who shouldn't be undermining GB pilots, etc, etc.

Nip these stupid ideas in the bud while they're young I say!

Doesn't matter how much you love your job, never sell yourself short. Everyone else in the world isn't so nice, and they'll take your money away and walk all over you with a big smile on their face. Especially airline managers.

Naughty Nigel,


I totally agree with you but..............

Dont you remember the time when you where young and dreaming of becomming a pilot? We all taught the same way as long as we where learning how to fly. It is only after you have been employed for a couple of years as a proffesional pilot that you are able to see that there are also a lot of disdvantages!

And indeed that too many airline managers tend to use this as an argument: you guys earn money while enjoying a hobby!

To Charlie: be patient. Things will change eventually. But one tip: do not make big expenses unless you are sure of a job! Here in Belgium young pilots payed over 74000€ for their training. Now they are on the market as jobless pilots, no type rating, 220Hours total time......No way to get hired! And they need to pay for licence renewals etc....

Wait!;)

Naughty Nigel

You go ahead, shout me down (no sarcasm intended). This is a discussion forum and everyone is welcomed to their own opinion. I welcome you comments.

I admit that I am young and undoubtedly once in a job will see that the pay should be better for what a pilot does, but at present I believe that if an airline wants to pay £60,000 of its money to train me then I should give them loyalty and not be overly expectant on what they will give me once on line, I fully expect to be taken advantage of since they paid for the training. Most jobs are tough when you first start out.

I just think that at the moment, until the industry picks up, people should sit tight, be thankful they still have a job, and give the airlines a chance to recover before placing demands. Even for a uni graduate, a starting salary of £25,000ish rising to £32,000ish after five years and then upwards to about £60,000ish is an excellent pay structure.

AC, I'll try to be diplomatic. Why do you think they are paying that large sum of money to train you? To do you a favour? That seems to be the way you feel. It is the way many pilots feel but if they didn't have to do it they wouldn't.

Airlines are in the business to make money. They aren't now or have they ever been in the business to a) provide you or anyone else with a job b) do you or anyone else any favours.

To make money they need to generate revenue. They do that by operating airplanes and putting bums in seats. Believe me if they could do it without those pesky pilots in the front they would. That money spent on your training comes back to them in spades when you get to the line and start generating revenue. Don't ever feel beholding to an airline for providing you with training. The airlines that charge their pilots for type training only do so because they can. When the pilots of the world get a grip and stop agreeing to it then it will stop.

You are a professional aviator, not a charity case.

AC,
eight years after graduating, and Mr Pandora is on more than I will ever see as a BA captain. I currently earn less as a FO than I did as a mediocre graduate 5 years ago. I did not start in BA on £25000. (Even think about expenses and I'll not only get out my dictionary to explain what the word means, I'll send you a copy of my Diner's bill to prove it.) I have given 2 years of my life to BA for free. I will spend the first 5 years of my employment with them at a significantly reduced salary, and on top of that comes the double whammy payment of £250 per month for 5 years to cover training costs. At the end of my first 5 years in BA, trust me, they will have got more than their £60 grand's worth out of me. With the pension now in danger it is not the fianancially attractive occupation it once was.
Now don't get me wrong. I love my job. But that is what it is. It is the thing that has to put a roof over my head, feed me and clothe me. It is not a crime or a sin to enjoy the way you earn your money. My friends who (without exception) earn more than me don't spend so much time away from home, nor do they have to report for work at 5:30am. They don't worry about hijackers, engine failures, DVT and radiation, fatigue or jetlag.
If someone started suggesting that because being a lawyer is such a great job, and so many peolpe want to do it that they should start lowering the pay, there would be anarchy in the legal world. As pilots we are professionals and expect to be treated as such. That includes a wage which recognises our professional capacity. I would suggest that if you want to join this group of people you start behaving like a professional. Don't be so ready to sell yourself down the river because a moment of stupidity overtook you and you gave up your right to a comfortable life in exchange for the ability to fly.
At 19 you are young, so some on this site may cut you a little slack. But if you seriously believe I owe BA something because they trained me, you need your head examining. They didn't train me cause they were being nice. They trained me because they need pilots to fly their aircraft, and after extensive experience have found that one of the best ways of getting more pilots is to train them up. No one has yet found a place where pilots grow on trees. And if people weren't quite so willing to thow stupid amounts of money at training BA and other airlines would have to swallow a lot more of the cost.