Don't do the training :ugh:

Full Left Rudder,

Things were a bit different when you finished training through CTC were they not? Did you get a bond repayment and a full-time contract?

Flexicrew has neither of the above and is most probably here to stay.

Priceless stuff. Silvercare, you really need to get that chip off your shoulder.

I made an investment in order to get a return, on top of which I get to do something I enjoy doing. This is no different to many of the self employed people around the world, entrepreneurs or students on long degree courses (doctors and architects spring to mind). Aviation has changed. Training to be a pilot now falls into that category. You wouldn't call an architect student who trained for 7 years only to earn a modest salary a whore now would you? Most of those students probably chose that line of work because they enjoy it and it offers long term rewards, just like most errrr...... aspiring pilots. Wake up to the real world.

Narrow Runway - seeing as you asked. I pay 6% of salary into my pension pot, and my company pays 12%. My company funded Critical Illness cover is 120,000. If you think that equates to getting shafted then I am not sure what planet you think you live on.

BerksFlyer, to answer your question I did not benefit from a loan repayment scheme, and I worked as Flexicrew for over 12 months.

Monk 360: I am glad you've got the sense to ensure your future by saving, rather than p!ssing it away and boasting of Breitlings and Range Rovers. You are, at least, a realist.

Full Left Rudder: You didn't get any of that with easyJet did you? You joined BA and gained those terms and conditions. Slightly disingenuous of you to portray that your company pension and loss of licence had a single thing to do with CTC. You are fortunate enough to have left low cost and joined legacy.

You have done extremely well from the new system, but that doesn't mean it all beds of Roses. It is a pernicious influence on all our futures.

The fact is that CTC has irrevocably damaged the terms and conditions in our industry. They won't improve any time soon and the sooner we all realise that the better.:mad: including the CTC wunderkind who believe that how they are treated and what they are earning is a good deal. It is not.

acyually narrow runway, that is easyJet in france.

I agree it is not all a bed of roses. I never said it was, only that a positive outlook on it all goes a long way in dealing with the issues.

I don't own a range rover or a breitling, I only said I could afford them. Instead I am investing my money sensibly for the future in these uncertain times.

Contrary to your thoughts, I do still work for easyJet, and they provide me with all those said benefits and a high salary (and actually a salary much higher than CTC ever promised at the beginning of training). I saw the opportunity offered in the European bases and bit the bullet. I knew it would be tough to move abroad, into a new culture and a new language, but I was positive enough to take that step rather than doing nothing about being in a bad situation, expecting the good life to be presented to me on a plate because somehow that was the God given right of a pilot, and then proceeding to moan about it for the rest of my career when that inevitably didn't happen.

Like I said in my first post on this topic. CTC is not perfect, but it is the reality now (and a good reality in many ways, as supported by several other posters on this thread). Combined with a positive outlook the overall result can still be very good.

It's a shame that some of the posters on this thread seem to believe a good old rant about CTC and the supposed eventual implosion of the entire universe will actually achieve something.

Here and Now
 

I think what some people fail to see is that CTC has almost entirely closed the door for Modular students.
CTC is now the default route when a lot of the prominent airlines are short of pilots. If an individual cannot pay for an Integrated course, he's pretty much left out in the cold now. The chances of him securing employment now are slimmer than ever.

So... I'd like to say a big thankyou to CTC and all of those who had to fly a jet ASAP - you've pushed me and most of the recent Modular students out of the running for the forseeable future... :mad:

FLR,

I stand corrected, congratulations for seeking out the current value in the easyJet pack of cards. You have done well for not necessarily staying close to home.

It is good that easyJet France offer such terms and conditions, but I suspect that is more to do with French law than anything else.

The real shame of it is that, not all pilots in easyJet have such rewards.

Now wouldn't it be nice if they did?

Guys, Come on now CTC had no power to destroy the T’s&C’s you did that all by yourselves by not standing up to the company when the idea of Flexi Crew was first suggested i.e. you should never have agreed to any form of contractor flying your companies airframes. (We need to include Ryan Air Crew in this too).
I don’t see any contractors driving main line and tube trains etc because of their solidarity in support of their union.
Unfortunately the L&RHS ‘well it doesn’t affect me’ brigade is the culprit here.
In every industry from IT to construction and even the armed forces the introduction of contractors has wrecked the T’s & C’s of the workforce.
When are you lot going to grow a pair and actually do something about it?
Actually its not just CTC but all of the agency providers (Brookfield, Rishworth etc), this is an industry all of its own now just look at Serco in public services sector and AlexanderMann in IT services to see where you are headed.
So EZY guys here are some suggestions, in your Merlin negotiations instead of spending all of your efforts to improve the RHS package, insist on limiting flexicrew to say 10% of total pilots with a minimum of hours per year, scrap the random roster and define the salary levels based on experience/ seniority etc. just like the legacy airlines do.
If you are not prepared to do this, stand by and watch whilst further erosion takes place.

Cloud 9.5:

CTC are now a contractor for the military at Brize Norton

CTC are the only route into Monarch, TCX, EZY and a host of others abroad.

At EZY 60% of RHS is CTC/Flexi overall and 70% at Gatwick. Many LHS are now CTC trained.

Why should they do anything?

Do they care about Modular folk or Flybe Captains adn FOs stuck in their Q400 careers?

Do they care about the decline of GA and olde school Flying as a route into flying?

Do they care if experienced ex Military or Biz Jet pilots are ignored?

FTL:

Your Architect example does not hold water in comparison to CTC and the like post 2008.

What architect pays to go to work like those that paid to fly passengers for 100h with EZY and bmi?

What apprenticeship scheme do CTC cadets go through - especially the new MPL ones? They are poorly trained (minimum actual flight time, and lowest cost to CTC and EZY) straight into the RHS of an automated JAR25 machine without a real understanding of the systems (CBT is a poor method of learning) or how to fly raw data/manually. On the line it is about saving fuel so no time to get a feel for the aircraft. Is it any wonder that some can't land the aeroplane?

And the airlines are tying to reduce the MPL 12 landings requirement on cost grounds!!!:ugh:

Yes we all have to pay to get a frozen ATPL but why pay more to improve the CEOs bonus?

An architect pays to follow their career path initially (but a lot less than £120k) and they are paid for their designs - they don't pay to use a CAD machine per hour or rent office space to complete site plans for a profit making firm.

Incorrect.

Let's not blame the cadets. It is CTC who are to blame and ezyJet for coming up with the FlexiCrew scheme and Ryan Air for forcing the market to such depths of wretchedness in the first place.

Monarch have taken people recently from other airlines, TCX are currently recruiting so fill your boots and EZY take from Parc, CTC and have taken directly into Lisbon and EZS recently. Don't make the facts fit.

It is also incorrect that CTC is the only route into EZY and TCX. Far from in in fact. Although I do agree CTC has a large market share there.

Are you really sure an architect doesn't pay best part of 120K to train? That figure you quote is after compound interest is taken into account, and even then is substantially inflated above reality. An architect student will study for at least 5 years unpaid. That doesn't come cheap and will require loans to pay Uni fees and living costs. That could very conceivably equate to about the same as the initial outlay a trainee pilot makes. They too then have to pay back interest across a long time frame. Can't think there is too much difference in the end.

Narrow Runway - I agree. It would be better if all easyJet employees had great benefits too. Aside from Flexicrew I believe that everyone is on a reasonable deal though. Flexicrew is a regrettable reality, but an individual is not on the scheme for long. The benefits in Spain and Switzerland are also excellent too. I would argue that it is not just the French law making France an exception.

@ greenedgejet
Not true but you have completely missed the point here. It is the companies that CAN go for lowest priced option (low hour fatpl's) because the incumbent crews at these airlines have not stood up to their managements strategy (rush to the bottom). In the days when management were ex pilots this would not have happen.
There was nothing intrinsically wrong with CTC/ Oxford integrated training* it is just that the hiring mix has been slewed by bean counter management and crews - you let it happen, this blood is on your hands.

* this may not be the case now as it seems the bar to entry is being lowered to allow those who can rustle up the money as the only selection criteria. (this most definitely was not the case up until about 18 months ago). Not sure waht to say about Oxford as there was always a suspicion of rich brats hobby there.

If you're not experienced and are a Modular fATPL, then I'm sorry but CTC has blocked your entry.

If anyone has any ideas how I can find employment when airlines keep 'lazily' dialling up CTC for their low hour bodies, then I'm all ears.

A few of the prominent airlines do occasionally take EXPERIENCED pilots from other sources; but if you're a Modular fATPL then you're pretty much screwed in the main nowadays. Not impossible, but pretty much. :uhoh:

Not true Poose.

If the money saved following a modular route (when compared with integrated) is used to buy some time on type then it might be argued you are placed rather ahead. Assuming 300 to 500 hours achieved.

Monk,

I beg to differ because of the probable individuals involved.

Daddys precious 18 year old enrolled on an integrated course. Bought and paid for on the back of the remaining equity in his parents house.

My money is on the chap with some life experience; working hard to pay his own way throught the modular route whilst paying his own bills.

The chap I will fly with tomorrow is a licenced engineer that followed a modular route and hour built "mincing" around in Florida. A top fella.

Your Cassocks are in the vestry!!! Run along, your mums got your milk bottle and bed ready!:=

"EXPERIANCED" or EXPERIENCED?
 

I don't know who is correct about which is the better route to becoming EXPERIENCED, but:

The correct spelling is EXPERIENCED.

It could be that Monk360 is correct, but it is entirely subjective to suggest that 200 hours integrated training is better than 1000 hours "mincing" in a C150.

Plenty of DFO's, Chief Pilots and TRE's would attest to this fact.

It could be that as of this very moment, Monk360 is correct. But probably not forever.

However, in that BA/EK/QR/BY/VS interview he/she may be very, very incorrect indeed.

And if Monk360 is a CTC Cadet, perhaps that says it all.

monk,

Your post offends me. I have 4000 hours and fly a 737 - I completed modular training, after weighing up both the options. I did not 'mince around' during training. I cannot comprehend how CTC/Oxford/FTE et al can charge nearly DOUBLE the price of most schools as they churn out pilots and there still be people to pay it. Most of the course fee would appear to be devoted to marketing in Airliner World with pretty pictures of pilots wearing said discussed Raybans.

During my hour building, I flew different length legs, I flew into different countries and different weathers, and different airfields. From what I know of most integrated schools, you have to have your flightplan 'approved' by some faceless office goon who gives you 'permission' to fly your chosen route assuming it's not too dangerous. You then 'mince around' as you put it, in the middle of Arizona where there are hardly ANY weather issues to contend with and pretend your learning, while you fly to nice paved runways that are over 1000m long. How is that learning? There is nothing better to teach you lessons than watching the low fuel light go on because you f***** up your headwind calculations and had to explain yourself to radar when you screw up their arrivals as you need priority. Mistakes are made and that is how you learn.

Contract agencies should be for short term pilot shortages, not to screw genuine pilots seeking a dream whilst fattening the wallets of management at airlines and the schools. I can't wait for the day when the UK bans this pseudo-employment farce that is FlexiCrew/Brookfield, and I say that as a contractor to an agency.

Horgy

A rather more erudite rebuke than my offering!

Still prefer my last line

MrHorgy is quite correct and to ad to his statements the quality of training (especially at the NZ school) in CTC has been hugely sacrificed. CTC built a good reputation and poured lots of money into building a good reputation for years. Now the directors/shareholders (Clarke) want that money back with interest! since 2009 2010 the syllabus and quality was slashed. CTC will make lots of money over the next few years until the industry realises what has happened. There may even be some serious safety concerns.

I can just see how it all begins:::

"Low houred pilot causes Horror around Heathrow!

"today a low houred pilot fresh out of training from CTC caused havoc when he forgot how to land a aircraft. Sources say he saw "clouds" and panicked. "

TONGUE IN CHEEK GUYS! but seriously all it takes is there to be one related incident that hits the press and CTC may start to falter???

Just a theory!!!!!! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Michael Medley
 

No. I don't think so.

CTC Cadets, in the absolute VAST majority, are NOT incompetent.

The fact is, they are broadly probably pretty good.

It is the fact that the current CTC schemes, and hence the generally very wealthy cadets therein, are assessed by only 2 main criteria: can you pay over the odds for training, and can you afford to work for not a lot for a good while?

CTC Cadets will NEVER have an accident in a 2 crew operation because they saw, or flew into a cloud.

Narrow Runway


I was just having a bit of fun as it seemed to be getting a bit out of hand this thread.....my view is at the end of the day...the license is a license.

IF i had the amount of money required to do CTC integrated then i would. Just because i don't have the cash doesn't mean im going to sit here and moan....it means i now have to go Modular and make sure i stand out from the CTC guys/gals. which i will!

Nobody should be on here slamming into the cadets because none of it is their fault, in my eyes they arent doing anything wrong. Good on them!!!!!

As the saying goes....dont hate the player, hate the game!

CTC to blame??? maybe..maybe not......RYR and other lowco T&C's to blame??? YES!!!!!

That's true the cadets are mostly very smart and highly motivated to succeed. But they are not trained very well any-more. Instructors were told to not teach things because it was taking too much time and money. The syllabus was dummed down and cadets are taught on a need to know basis to pass the flight tests. (there was even a data base kept on examiners pet questions and scenarios). Cadets don't know what they are missing out on because they don't see the old syllabus. Instructors were not happy with the standards drop and felt like they were ripping off the cadets.

systematically - I'd be interested to know the source of your views.

That's not been mu experience. The cadets are very well trained.

The source of my information is from being there when the syllabus was changed and being told to not teach techniques. I have also posted elsewhere with more information on the syllabus. Anybody who was there from 2008-2009 knows about it all.

The cadets were very well trained. The syllabus hours were cut from 230 hrs to 163 to compete with Oxfords training. But costs to the Cadet went up at the same time.

That was my opinion too, I was impressed with the standard of the majority of cadets, but I had an interesting debate during the cruise the other day with a SFO with command upgrade hours about which aileron to use during a crosswind takeoff.

Either he was winding me up (quite possible) or he didn't know.

Now, what is the use of a guy who diligently calls out the OM height check on every ILS approach regardless of whether we are in cloud or not and calls out every speed deviation, even if it is only the speed trend vector and not the real airspeed, but doesn't know that you need to put the aileron into wind?

Please let's not have any tosh about avoiding spoiler deployment with neutral control wheel input as I've checked the FCTM and it advises into wind aileron as required.

In fact, I'm not sure I've flown with anyone in the last 3 or 4 years who has used any into wind aileron at all either on takeoff or on landing.

Cadets are probably expected to pick this skill up on the line, but I can't see the evidence yet.

Michael Medley
 

Your views on CTC/OAA may very well change when you've actually made considerable sacrifices or indeed find yourself looking for employment, only to find that the majority of operators that recruited all of your contacts only a few years back are now defaulting to CTC for all of their low houred pilots.

As for "moaning on forums" and "standing out from the crowd", I'm only pointing out the current reality, as regards to CTC etc.

The truth isn't pleasant at the minute for Modular students.

Stand out from the crowd? How does several years working in a Flight Test environment on a CS-25 aircraft suit you? Or perhaps a degree in Mechanical Engineering and leadership/management experience gleaned from Sandhurst and a stint in the Army... :E

I'm sorry, Michael - but there comes a point in this game where the eventual bottom line is whether or not you have access to cash for a Type Rating and can live off peanuts for your first year or so.

Now before someone advises me to network, I already have a broad range of contacts in some great operators - who unfortuneatly now turn to CTC for their new, low houred blokes and are powerless to help...
I'm going to continue networking and chasing the dream - but see my point?

Anyway... good luck! :ok:

How do you work this out? It is as much their fault as it is CTC themselves. We (well, not me) all bang on about supply and demand as to why this industry is in a state, well it's the same argument for the CTC sausage machine. The only reason CTC are alive and well with this scheme is because the cadets are feeding it, the supply to CTC is there for them to operate their business model. If cadets don't sign up for it, then it won't exist, simple as that. As someone else wrote on here last year, it's the reason why they charge you 3 x the price for flowers during Valentines day.....why.....Because us muppets are prepared to pay it. Don't over complicate it, and certainly don't exonerate the cadets of all blame. :=

Alycidon, check again.


OM-B 2.69


FCTM-NO-50 p1/8:

From Airbus safety bulletin:

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/medi..._DEP-SEQ06.pdf

I could go on listing them but they ALL recommend, outside of STRONG crosswind conditions, not to use into wind aileron. As the SFO has a crosswind limitation which would not fall into the category of strong crosswind (below 25kts) he or she is correct the he or she would not use any in to wind aileron on a crosswind take off.

That's because they are following the procedure and this demonstrates the great training, high standards and quality of information we are provided with.

If you don't mind I'll rely on airbus and easyJets recommendations rather than an incorrect anonymity on pprune. As always be extremely careful about what you believe on pprune. And I mean no offence by that.


Poose do the CTC ATP scheme then - if you cant beat them join them.

Poose
 

I suppose every situation is different......


If the only option is to pay for a type rating then our hands are tied for the moment until it becomes a choice. Just another fee that's going to cripple me/us/you for even longer.

Im not yet into the big bad world of job seeking so i really do not want to say what's right or wrong if im honest so i shall steer clear of that one until im in THAT situation.

I will try and make myself (as the rest are) as available as possible as i am fortunate that i don't yet have commitments that force me to stay in EU.

i shall state that i do not knock CTC cadets or ANYONE training as we are all going to be sat in the same boat at the end of the day regardless of contacts/partners ect........ its a dog eat dog business.

If you cant beat them.....Join them

Kind Regards

Yes yes; what an erudite post Michael.

Send us your money plenty quick :D

Just to be clear, CTC does not block modular guys (& gals) in fact recently EZY and others have cleared out the AQC CTC hold pool and they are all going through their line training etc. most are modular with varied experience as FI's, meat bombers, tug pilots and the like in all age ranges and second careers etc.
CTC do not BLOCK modular/ self improver but are the only conduit to certain airlines.
I will say again that the full time crews have let this situation occur and continue to allow it to get worse.
For example objections around Merlin almost entirely are related to the seniors whinging that they are not getting RPI related increases, not anything about random rosters for the newbies or the over reliance on Flexi crew.

Ctc only way (unless you are very experienced on type) into ezy and many other uk airlines is the truth for the past 4 years. Monarch prefer cadets and rarely take on experienced non rated crews. Oxford / are similar to ctc but seem to have slightly higher standards though costs are extremely high.

GB£ 120k was not inflated it was info from cadets 4 years ago. Just look at the ctc arl deal with ba and you will see actual costs are far more than 84k initial outlay.


Cloud 9.5 mentions folk from other backgrounds but states these are ctc hold pool. Also they had to pay for TR with ctc and more through flexi crew scheme. Ezy did look at high hour on type pilots late last year due to over reliance on cadets of late.

Truth is many ctc cadets were abused on 6 month contracts on min wages then laid off and told not to apply elsewhere in case ctc wanted them to work again.

One cadet managed to escape to aer lingus at the time. Good on them.

All ctc cadets were given the answers to the a320 type rating papers unofficially after death by CBT. They were given more sim sessions for Lst than the trss guys. None were allowed to borrow fcom or take paper tigers home for revision usage. Some that failed LST were given further training and re tests.

The reason Tcx send their cadets to flybe is due to the lack of airmanship and experience cadets have. Being keen, bright and loaded is not enough.

How many Flybe captains have joined ezy over past 4 years? That route has been blocked by these airline/school deals.

Thankfully qatar do not use this system.

Most cadets are poorly trained in minimum hours by so called approved schools. This is not the cadets fault. The schools have sold an image to the wannabees and then not delivered what used to be a fairly sound package.

Most do not understand that adding power at a stall does not aid recovery. It is a minimum height loss technique that only works if the AoA is reduced simultaneously and on its own power on will actually worsen the stall.

Most of the recent graduates have flown mutual "solos" instead of having to think for themselves during the light aircraft flying phase and this is being reduced further under Mpl.


Finally the term woefully undertrained is now in black and white in CHIRP reports instead of hearsay and pprune.

Why should poose do the ctc ATP scheme if already qualified? Are you suggesting modular is so 2nd class citizen that someone has to do an integrated course as described above just to get a foot in the door of a loco job?

:mad:

Architects
 

I have relatives in this profession. There are no huge upfront fees or pay to work in a design office deals in the uk. The training is in 3 parts.

Part 1 is standard university degree which is nowhere near the cost of an integrated ATP course.

Part 2 is very similar to engineering with chartered status requirements.

Part 3 is a final exam for professional status (equivalent to unfreezing an atpl).

After part 1 you start earning a salary similar to an Fo joining a turbo prop airline.

From info4study website 2009:


Q. How much will I earn?


A. There is no national salary scale for architects but for guidance, typical earnings after Part 1 graduation (before final qualification and Registration as an Architect - see below) are around £15,000 to £17,500. The average salary for a qualified architect with three years experience is approximately £33,000. Architects who are self-employed or partners have an income that is dependent on the fees earned by the practice (that are charged as a percentage of the cost of the buildings that the practice designs eg 20%