Griasde BB
 

The Jet counts not the TP. For your total time you add the DH4 time. I flew in the early 90´s as well ERF-AGB-MUC-CGN-THF-RTM-VIE-BLQ-STR and so on. I took the Command and when the company went bust in early 96 I had nothing then TP time. I left the Country towards the sandpit and even we had Glas-type Instruments in the brand new TP´s back "home" nobody was looking at our CV´s seriously as there was no Jettime. We where lucky that the company internaly upgraded us from the TP to the Jet´s when they got some. After one year on the Jet invitations came more frequently in the late 90´s and I ended up in a B737 operation, thereafter it was in 2004 in B777.

As advised before: Take the Jet and who knows what game is played with IQ one day. Look what happens to C3, after the Summer it is almost over.

It is not selfish if you think for yourself: It is your career and your future. Nobody on the market gives a sh..t about you if you are out of a job. As online applications become more and more common it is difficult to draw attention to the individual. You need to fill into the requirements and that includes Jettime to get invitet to proove yourself. Later they are happy that you learned real flying and not only stick-moving and push-button SOP´s.

Its all about job security


What you have to ask yourself is this. If your company goes bust, where you going to go. With TP command hours ? With Jet FO hours ? Which would make it easier for you to get another job ?


It also depends on what you want to do in life. Fly a TP for the rest of it ? Nothing wrong with that, but you have to think that you may have 30 years work ahead of you and although you may be happy working where you are now, where do you go if and when they go bust or you lose your job.


Some advice for you, but this is my own opinion. Get the jet time, go to Emirates, get a rating that will keep you in a job for life and then after a few years in the middle east, if you're not happy move on. Simple.


BA do not give a !!!! if you have command on a turbo prop. The last lots of advertisements from BA wanted you to have jet time over 50 tonnes or be rated on an aircraft they operate.


In the UK, you having TP time means nothing. easyJet, Monarch, Thomas Cook, BA, Thomson will look at those who have jet hours before TP command and Ryanair will never take anyone but a pay as you go as long as there is pay as you go's willing to do it which is good if its your first job.


I would say, get the jet time, get to Emirates after you have 2000 hours jet or Qatar after you have 1000 hours jet and then get a type rating that will give you a long lasting career.


Take the TP command and be a TP pilot for a long time ?

Useful for what? There isn't a single (decent) company who is looking for these types as a minimum requirement.

Any jet > 55t will be just fine for your CV.

For the time being, go to any jet.

Who said long lasting career in Qatar, I didn't. Get jet time, get a job in Emirates or Qatar, get a rating and time on a large jet, then after a couple of years leave if you wish. Use them as they use you. Get the rating, get the hours and then move on if you can't hack it out in the Middle East.

Your point is ? Nobody is stopping them leaving ? And why can't they return ?

My point is this, Command on a TP is not going to give you a long lasting career, because if and when the company you're working for tells you you're no longer required, chances of getting another job is a lot slimmer than it would be if you're flying a 195

And you're correct, no one wants to live in the sand pit, but a job is a job. You tell me where there is a better job please, post a link for it.

What he s trying to say is that you can go nowhere with a 777 rating and 3-4-5000 hrs on it!

most of the companies require A320 time (sometimes 737). So any 747 777 340 time will be of no use realistically.

I agree, so if Emirates offered you a job, ask for 330 and if Qatar offered you a job, ask for 320

Well I quite like it.

I would not go as far as to say I like it. I hate the driving. The place is ok and safe. The job is ok but hard work. Its a job and they pay on time every month and no chance or being made redundant.

Back to topic. TP command or 195 jet, it all depends on what you want to be doing in 10 years time. More chance of getting a larger jet job from a 195 than a TP

The fact is, whether anyone likes it or not, some employers simply don't count TP time as valuable. I'm not saying that is fair or correct but that it is how a lot of companies operate.

Command time, for the big companies, is pretty well meaningless too. Why? Because you will spend a good few years in the rhs and so they will have a very good idea of what you are like before, hopefully, you get a promotion. I was given this advice by an ex Brittania Captain in my first job and I think it still holds true.

The other good advice I was given always get the biggest shiniest type rating you can. You can trade down later if that is what you want to do.

I'm not saying the "never turn down a command" is bad advice but here I think it's on dodgy ground.

BBK, I think you told me the same advise about always try and fly the heaviest you can ?

FR8R
This would have been good advice 12 years ago but the game has changed and when it come to upgrade time and you are up against the CTC guy with 4000hrs on A32x, your command time will count for very little, unless its a tie-break situation. Sorry, but its a sad fact. Shiny Jet Syndrome, tch! that'll be the day!

As you see from the split opinion, there is no correct answer, it is neither A , nor B, it is (as always) C

C = what do you fancy /what rocks your boat.

Finally, pro's & con's to both (as proven by the "ask the public" response,) so finally, your choice.
Speaking personally, I loved, really loved, my 1st jet (DC9) nothing to beat that ethereal silence, both during take-off , & at high altitude. . .and the views :cool: but conversely,I would have no problems going back onto a Q400 if it got me a job where I wanted, with the company I wanted (strangely enough I HAVE pondered that particular option) even after 24 yrs of hairdryers. However, I appreciate it is easier to let something go after having sated oneself , than to not want it.
Then again, you are talking what is best career wise, not dewey eyed reminiscences, so, maybe it is also irrelevant



That




What I WOULD have problems with, is jumping back into the RHS, even if you offered me Concorde (OK, for that one I might have managed)
It is a cliche, but it is also entirely true, that sitting in the LHS changes so many things (mostly for the better) in this job we do.
You, and you alone set the mood for the day, if you are RHS with an imbecile, or a nasty piece of works in the LHS, the day is screwed. Yes, it is a good learning experience, but you won't go home singing in the car (actually you might, out of relief it is over )
I have never yet, had someone in the RHS ruin my day, I have sometimes been frustrated, sometimes been angry, but never ever had a complete 4 sector day fecked by having a pr1ck in the RHS.

That is worth a lot. IMHO

There is no right or wrong answer, do as your heart beckons, because your head has a 50/50 chance to get it right. . or wrong.

Best response yet CPS

Option C every time and when life changes come along be prepared to roll with the punches. Priorities vary with age, beliefs, family, health, finances and what you enjoy doing. Enjoy whichever road you choose.

captplaystation-very good summary why is it better to be a captain..simply very well said..same feelings here.

It takes some time and maybe years when we look back and see if a decision was good or bad.

To be a q400 capt at the age of 29 is not bad at all. I don't think there's a huge difference in terms of work when we compare a q400 copilot's job to an Embraer copilot's job. The difference starts when you compare long haul flying to any of these. Totally different lifestyle..now that's a difference. Not the propeller:O!

Jet hours are jet hours of course..this can be a good opportunity to see that kind of operation too..but don' expect too much difference. Maybe you are lucky and go for the Embraer now and within one or two years you can go back to the q400 LHS. Why not:O?

Will jump on the jet band wagon. 10 years ago perhaps the TP command would not do any harm. A bit of fun before you went on to progress your career. Not just fun but amazing experience. Experience which counted for something as you moved on.
Sadly now TP command seems to count for nothing. As expressed above the 195 is a very limited market but its still the fabled narnia of a jet so go see what you think. You'll regret it if you don't. And at least it's not as limited as a q400!

I think we have established a couple of things here.

1. I am a dinosaur from an era when command was important and coveted.

2. Being in command with an idiot in the other seat is infinitely better than the opposite arrangement.

3. Getting command before 30 is nothing to discount. More time in the right seat can lead to right seat apathy and possibly cause an extended period in said seat. How many years to upgrade in the jungle jet?

4. It should be watever lifestyle suits you best, not what type you fly. If turboprops offered me the pay i make now, i would be there tomorrow.

5. You will not go deaf in a Q400 (unless the noise cancelling thing is on MEL) and you are flying the best non-second-world-war-fighter aircraft to ever have two props on the wing.

My money still says take the left seat if you like your company and are not in any hurry to move on. Otherwise, it makes no difference what you do.

Cheers.
Hater

All the above is correct depending on your standpoint and LS is better than RS, but we are talking about a career and income here, and when you finally have to leave the LS (TP or babyJet) to join a bigger (possibly more secure) airline, you are going back into that RS potentially for a very long time. Is it 'better to have loved and lost.....' as they say? I do know quite a few SFO's who have had commands before who are deeply resentful of the fact they now languish in the RS due to the recession. Those that have only known the RS have less to grumble about, but at least we are very well paid in our RS's and slowly but surely getting towards a command and some serious money. And yes I know money is not everything, but its pretty useful when you have a wife, kids and school fees to pay for.

For a whole variety of reasons, the best decision I ever made was to take a turbo-prop command. The transition from LHS turboprop to LHS jet was simple. And that was because of the previous command experience. And as Cap'n PS has pointed out, you make each day your own. You set the mood and tone of the day and with only a small amount of effort your crew and yourself can have a really good day at work. Amongst the people I work with there are probably only two or three names amongst the 140 or so I'd prefer not to fly with. Enjoying your day at work is priceless.

Shiny jets are only bits of equipment. The same Mk.I knob can be installed in any seat. But if you are sitting the LHS you can (or rather should) control the day, but it is a lot more difficult from to do so from the right.

Obviously there are lots people who have jumped at the right time and end up ahead of former colleagues but I'm sure that their are also many people like myself who have benefitted over senior colleagues by taking "a crappy turboprop" command.

To close, I'll have to quote a former training captain who I greatly respect, a guy called Dave Fisher. He said "You never turn down the chance of a command". And with hindsight, he was right. I'd certainly feel a lot more vulnerable being in the RHS in a jet during a recession than I would in the LHS of a turboprop.

No Offence, but where in the world can you get a job as a DE Captain having only flown Captain on TP? I think the answer is nowhere, at the moment, for any reputable airline.

Jet2 is pretty reputable...

I know of one TP LHS who has recently joined Jet2 but back in the RHS.

Going back from LHS Prop to RHS jet would be no problem for me as long as the conditions are even or better. I don't need the ego thing. But there seem to be some companies who dont want ex captains on their RHS, unfortunately.

Went from LHS Dash-8 to RHS Boeing. Of course this is in the USA, so that's pretty normal here. Different world over here I suppose in that regard, interesting to read this thread and see how different it is out there. Used to be here it was minimum 1000 hours command time in pretty much ANY large turboprop or regional jet to get a shot at the RHS at a major airline. Most regional pilots here would happily jump out of the right seat of a CRJ / ERJ to fly left seat in a Brasilia, etc.

And then, of course, happily jump out of the turboprop LHS to the right seat in a Boeing or Airbus, etc (for a different company, obviously).

These days though, even over here you really need both jet and command time (though the command time could just as well be on a turboprop, with RHS time in the jet) to be competitive. But, if it were one or the other, the large turboprop command would be the more important of the two. Again, only applies to the USA.

DE Capt with Jet2 and only TP experience? Even if the previous type was an Electra, its exceptionally unusual these days.

to quote Piltdown Man

"I'll have to quote a former training captain who I greatly respect, a guy called Dave Fisher. He said "You never turn down the chance of a command"."

This 'one size fits all' advice really isn't very helpful...there are just too many different personal circumstances at play...this thread sits very well with the "Ezy Captain or Virgin F/O" thread also on this forum.....the best advice Ive seen is to get in with the airline you want to spend your career with at the earliest possible opportunity..to do that you need to see what their requirements are...I would guess most legacy carriers..indeed almost all career jet airlines would prefer jet time regardless of seat over LHS turbo prop time...the only time LHS T/P time will stand you in good stead would I imagine be some sort of contract T/P job.

If on the other hand you like it where you are and want to progress from within, then I would take the command on the Turboprop...it will be a more fulfilling job sooner and, hey, if you have no wish to move on then what anyone else wants doesn't come in to it.

The bottom line is One mans meat is another mans poison....I love doing long haul and wouldn't change it for anything...a mate of mine has been flying turboprops for years and likes the more personal feeling of a small regional airline...another works short haul A320's on northern base and is happy as a pig in SH£t, so don't let anyone else's preconceptions lead you astray...do what feels right for you and no-one else

I was in a similar position and went for the jet experience. Luckily i got my jet command earlier than those who took the LHS TP. Unfortunately most companies just look for jet hours. So it all depends on what you want to achieve in your flying career.

Take the jet while you are still younger than the captains you will be flying with. Upgrade on the Embraer and your next move into the left seat of an A320/B737 will a much smaller step.

However your next thread may be asking about A320 Captain vs B777 F/O.;)

Few serious airlines these days have turbo props in mainline, they get passed off to separate feeder companies with far lower terms and conditions and often little or no prospect of advancing across.

If you have career ambitions getting onto a jet asap is what counts, this part of the world is virtually all jet, I can't remember the last time I saw a TP in Hong Kong.

Turbo prop command would be better for a pilot close to retirement and happy where he was.

An older turbo prop Captain may be seen as less desirable than a young jet F/O who is easier to teach and less set in his ways.

METROMAN
This sounds more interesting, so in Asia, with its mega growth, there are DE Capt on A320 positions which you can get with EMB195 command time? If this is the case and the OP is willing to work in Asia, it does put a completely different complexion on the argument. The only issue now is how to get back to Europe, should you not want to spend 30 years in the Topics.

i have lots of friends flying on q400, A320, several on B737 and one on B747.
they all agree that flying a turboprop is harder and more demanding job and it will make one a better pilot.
unfortunately today that is not something that is appreciated. :ugh:
if you don't intend to stay within same company and get to jet by seniority grab jet time!
also having experience in two types increases your chances to get some job if your company decide that your services are no longer neaded.

My company loves RJ pilots, second only to rated with experience on type. DEC unlikely but 6 -12 month upgrade expected.

As a late 20s - early 30s jet F/O you fit the "profile". Mid 30s with only TP time and you are moving outside of what airlines want.

Over here A320/B737s are regarded as a bit of a nuisance by some controllers as they interfere with the flow of widebodies.;)

Jesus! Only 8 years to retirement, thank God for that!!:)

Quick update if someone is interested. I took the Q400 command. And by no I really don't regret it :ok: It's a lot of fun and of course a bit more money. No one knows what future in aviation will bring but right now if feels for me that the prop command is better for my personal and academical development than sitting in the RHS of a medium jet.
We will see in a couple of years :E

A few times a pilot with a lot of TP command time will be offered an upgrade to a Jet command
I have seen it a few times in the past. It just depends on the day to day requirements.

You are working for Augsburg Airways by any chance? ;)

Good to see a thread intelligently and well argued from both sides. I was interested in this topic because I've thought of moving onto frieght in the past. My domestic situation dictates I stay here (on TPs) and I don't have a problem with that. The older you get, the more important quality of life becomes.

However, stick your LHS/RHS rubbish up your jumper, the REAL action is in proper aircraft in the seat just behind the F/O (if you can find one outside of a museum, where mines is). :{

I'm currently in the same situation however my current company has no jets to progress onto so I've decided to go with the jet. A320 to be exact, but then again I'm looking at getting to the M.East so it's all about jet time. I did enjoy my Q400 upgrade sims :).

I realise you guys might think that this is a very noobish question, but please humour me.

Why do airlines consider TP hours to be a waste of time? I don't see how the engine type makes that much of a difference to the pilot. Turboprops are just unducted turbofans anyway.
Or is it about the size of aircraft, TPs being smaller than jets, with lower speeds and altitudes etc?

Let me know if you ever find the answer!!!!

Likewise I'd be quite keen to know.