What has happened to the reputation of VS over the last few years??? It wasn't long ago that there were heated debates on this forum over Virgin V BA - and Virgin won for a lot of people! Now it seems the answer is a forgone conclusion...

Many things have changed in the last few years:

- BA being 'given' T5 which has helped their cause tremendously.

- IAG tie-up and expansion with the acquisition of BMI and all the slots that come with that.

- VAA management losing the plot with numerous bum decisions - commercial as well as with it's workforce.

The trouble with a small company like VAA, a long economic downturn is always difficult. Panic sets in and services and the workforce suffer, and when there are better times the question is will VAA be in a position to take advantage?

As for short vs long haul, as people have commented, it's dealers choice. I enjoy the long haul lifestyle, but in these unsure and unclear times it would be a brave man who leaves a secure role to join any airline at the bottom of the seniority list.

A easyJet Captain is probably saving more cash than a Virgin Atlantic F/O earns in some cases. That's a lot of money to give up to fly to LAX for 48hours 4 times a month and have no job security....

Still if I was young and single (no wife no kids!) I'd probably go to Virgin to enjoy the sex and beach :ok:

This is the downside of the draw. I can't think of why you would leave a job with command and ultimately more spondulax for one offering minamal prospects and insecurity? VS generally look for people with command experience when hiring for the RHS, however I know it's not always the case. Moving LHS at EZY or FR even, to RHS VS would show a massive mismatch in income and security. Sure there will be individual reasons for everyone, however I can't think far beyond someone's burning desire to fly a large four engined aircraft to various parts of the globe as being the ultimate reason. To me, VS is a young mans job. No ties, no real responsibilities. A few years of long haul experience and move somewhere else by choice or by virtue of seniority!! - most likely to the Middle East because Europe will probably no longer be in the equation for you. Why not cut out the stepping stone and get to Emirates or Qatar now. That's where you will probably end up anyway! :ouch:

Call sign Kilo

Regarding VS looking for command experience for the rhs may I ask where you get that info from. Never heard it before. Seems unlikely especially as new FOs looking at very long time perhaps 15 years.

I think, in general, the best strategy is to get on the seniority list of the best possible carrier as soon as possible, forget the LHS, do not under any circumstances delay your date of joining. Going after a command at a LCC without actually planning to stay seems to me the wrong choice.

I am stunned to still see guys e.g. heading east to EK, EY,etc " to get a command first, and then look for options" , without actually realizing that should they decide to come back they still have to join the end of the line..

( I don' t want to be a smart ass, I fly myself with Cpt's at CX who are younger and have less experience, but simply joined immediately)

Ron, how old are you? There is no need to answer the question it is more of self question really. I have been around this business for yonks and I am certain in my own mind that you should stay as you are. You have a command. you have stability and you have an employer who knows what they are doing.

Stretching your arms and legs is a natural thing to do. Stretching your ambitions can be a disaster. Stretching your family to match what you feel is a step too far IMHO.

Taking the step into BA is not, and will not, be what you think it might be. Stabilty is what you should aim for right now simply because the world economy and our economy is in dire straights. What could be worse than to make a mistake that costs you and your family terrible grief.

I imagine you are probably around 40. If so you have a lot of time to consider your future - but ONLY when the country and the economy stablize. That may take another 5 years but you and your family will be snug as a bug in a rug.

ANYONE assuming this is the right time to change is living in a pardise that doesn't yet exist.

Ron, grasp with both hands what you have an be thankful. Tis better to be thankful that you made the right decision than to have made the wrong one.

I have a few friends who are captaines in EZE and they would dream of moving in the near future.

Whatever you choose I wish you well.

excellent thread

for what its worth i've been at VS for nearly 9 years now and quiet frankly its just not the same airline i joined!!

The senior management and HR have destroyed what was once a great place to work and morale is at an all time low..

If you have a Command at EZY then it is best you stay there as Virgin has nothing to offer..

all the best

I am suprised by the lack of enthusiasm for a move to BA. If you do seriously want to consider a change then I would recommend you consider BA.

I dont think there is a flying career in the uk at the moment that will provide for you the security, lifestyle, career options, long term earnings, variety that BA will.

I started in Ryanair and jumped to BA as soon as I could (2005) Granted I may be looking at the company with rose tinted spectacles sitting on the 777 but I have to say I love my career.

If you joined on SH you would probably be there for about 6 years before getting LH but then its nice to have the choice to suit your lifestyle requirements.

I think the pp34 change should not be the deal breaker you seem to think it is.

Also my understanding is that BMI integration would provide for better long term career progression as BA will find itself with the opportunity to grow at LHR and transfer slots to LH if required.

At the moment a LH fO starts on a basic of about £49,000 this increases at
about £2600 per year

With the new PP34 I assume you would still start on £49,000 but take extra 10 years to reach the top, this would be an annual increment of £1800.

So £2600 v £1800 or £800 per annum gross difference is not a huge amount. Please bear in mind your pensionable salary will be the same as it currently is for BARP pilots in BA so your pension will be no worse.

I dont think BA have ever carried out compulsary redundancies. My friend in VA has faced it twice in 4 years and has been forced to change base and aircraft type. The 750 hour VA limit is also a red herring as BA pilots probably average between 750-800 anyway.

Best of luck deciding what you do.

Ron,

What about asking something like "does anyone know how to get back in the LHS of an Airbus because I am now unemployed"?

I would put job security higher in your thoughts.

Cloudn9e.....take a break from counting your allowances and think about this....Ron could transfer to a Paris base and be earning up to £160,000 per year.....just think, that's almost as much as a First officer working for the world's favourite airline?.....!!

As I said before, I wouldn't leave the left hand seat of an Airbus of a very stable (and growing) airline for the bottom of a seniority list with a 15+ year upgrade. I would stay and move to the northern Easy base when seniority permitted. If I were to move, BA would be the only option I might consider given the fleet choice and SH/LH options. It might be difficult to turn down a 787/777 FO slot if offered (you never know what might be available) as I could always return to SH flying if desired... :ok:

Regardless, leaving a left hand seat at Easy would be very difficult in this economic climate.

Indeed, a very interesting thread. The security arguments are of course very valid, but I have decided to give up a very lucrative mainland europe easyJet contract and move to BA. The reason for this has not really been discussed yet I don't think - long term health.

I am about to embark on a 5th straight 4 sector duty in excess of 10 hours. All of which started before 05.30am. It doesn't take a doctor to tell you what effect this will take on your body.

To take an example, there are 5 captains at my base who are suffering from a narrowing of their ear canal. The doctors say it is due to too high a frequency of pressurisation cycles. All 5 guys look set to lose their medicals at not much over 40 years old. At least if you are made redundant from the bottom of a seniority list you have a chance of securing some future for your family. At over 40 with no medical it is a different ball game......

Two pilots at my base also had sleep tests done recently. When the sleep doctor was shown the rosters he thought the guys were joking.

Good luck to everyone making these tough decisions at the moment.

FLR,

Congrats on your new position with BA. Solid argument from your point of view. Health is critically important in our line of work. I have also heard that years of long-haul flying can be detrimental to one's health and relationships (i.e., missing children as they grow up and experiencing spousal challenges). I know Virgin and BA pilots who seem to be exhausted by frequent long-haul, multi-time zone trips (no big surprise with that type of flying). At least they can sometimes relax at the beach down route. Valid points all around.

I guess you cannot win in this flying job - both long-haul and short-haul flying can reduce your lifespan... :eek::uhoh::( Time to get a law degree! :D

BBK

The command experience requirement came from someone in VS. I was told it is 'generally' what they look for. I know that it is not a prerequisite because they hire DE FOs. Sorry if it appeared that I suggested that they only hire DEPs who come from the LHS.

cloudn9ne

The starting salary at BA is now £50,300 Basic - so I'm told :ok:

Very true Iver. It does seem difficult to win at this game!

However, from looking at many rosters it does seem short haul legacy is very much a different ball game to short haul low cost though. At least that is what I am hoping!

The amount of pilots I know who want to go part time is staggering. Unfortunately that is the aviation industry for you now.

Granted, you do much less FLYING hours at some legacy short haulers, and there is a lot to be said about that. But what about DUTY hours? Turnarounds of more than an hour, sometimes two or three, spending most of your working week in different hotels, random rosters, odd hours. Compare that to the stability of a 5/4 roster, always home at the end of a working day, earlies nicely separated from lates, etc.

I'm just another easyJet captain, and sure, sometimes I'm tempted by shiny 777's or the idea to 'see the world', have 14 beautiful women under my command somewhere in Barbados. Who knows, I might jump ship one day if the offer is good enough. But not now, and that's ok. Yesterday I flew a brand new shiny 319 and we landed at three very nice modern European airports. I know a lot of people who would be mightily impressed with that. :ok:

BA starting salary is £50,803 (pensionable £49,556) following a pay rise this year.

stuff
 

Hi,

Need to check something. Cloud9 you state for BA to be a difference of £800 per annum and i'm getting no where near that.

Based on your numbers (I know the new basic has gone up by 3% but for this we'll start with 49K.)

So based on 23 incremental rises of £2800 for PP24 the top rate would be 49000+(2800*23) = 113,400.

Now, based on the same top rate (113,400-49,000)/33 = 1951 increments for PP34 but for simpler maths lets call it 1900.

Now by simply adding the incrematal increase for each starting from year 1 this is what I get.

Yr 5 PP24 - 60,200 PP34 - 56300
Yr10 PP24 - 74,200 PP34 - 65,300
Yr20 PP24 - 102,200 PP34 - 84,500
Yr24 PP24 - 113,400 PP34 - 92,100

Now continue this on for PP34.

Now at year 24, a pilot on the "old contract" would've earned a basic salary of £1,948,800 to this point in thier career.

A pilot on the "new contract" would have earned £1,684,800 at the same point.

Both pilots have a life expectancy of 34yrs flying with the company.

Now seeing that the "old contract" guys are now top they will continue to recieve £113,400 for the next 10yrs meaning they will earn an extra £1,020,600 and so making their total basic salary earnings over
34yrs = £2,969,400.

Right, "new contract" guys will continue to get the rise until Yr34 and thus make their career basic salary £2,710,300. (there is a 3.6% error in here but could not be bothered calculating it again)

Now difference between old and new is £259,100.

Thats a house in some places of the UK. Now if you look at your BARP pension based on £49K 5% employee and 12% employer contributions this would give a pot £364,859 or 25Kpa till 80yrs old. (UK Pension Calculator and Annuity Calculator)

Of course the guys on the old contract could have pontentially an extra £259,100 to add to that pot.

So for those starting at the begining of March at the age of 31 (should the yes vote go through), think of how much you will earn now compared to the someone aged 31 starting a week later.

People bleat on this fourm about how low cost pilots are to blame for everything for not standing up for t&c's but it now looks like the legacy guys are doing the same.

And why that? Its cause I'm alright Jack! :ugh:

Maybe this should be in the BA DEP thread but what I'm trying to get at is that the grass isn't always greener and there are certainly limited lush pastures in ba unlike evryone seems to think.

Lifestyle, money, girls, aircraft, whatever. You dont always have to follow the sheep. Its your life and what makes you happy is different from what makes me happy.

Anyway,

safe flying!

Disclamer: These figures may not be 100% accurate and spelling and gramar mistakes have been left in to keep everyone happy. I've been up since 4am testing landing gear around europe and would like to apologise for the earth tremmor in eastern Europe at 0916z today. Sun was in my eyes.

I agree. With this job, especially being young, you' ll always have enough money to have a decent/good life. So I wouldn't base my decision on that.

As far as long term health, long haul is as dangerous as the fatiguing rosters on the short haul which change with different periods of the year (usually 5 months per year with very little flying if you play a bit with leave/fixed roster pattern).
You go to any good long haul carrier and you ll fly 850ish hrs per year changing time zones all the time. Can't be good.

All of this to say that you won't find your answer here because everyone will come up with his own precious truth.

Just do what you want to do, and if it's real bad well at least you tried.

good luck

Kempus, your figure are out somewhere but I can't quite spot where, however I ran a quick spreadsheet and I calculate that a longhaul FO starting on £50,800 and receiving 33 annual increments of £1900 will earn a total of £2,793,100.

An FO starting on £50,800 but getting 24 annual incrments of £2500 will earn a total of £3,044,200.

That's a difference of £251,100.

Yeah think that was the 3.6% tolerance bit I mentioned. Did my maths on the back of an envelope but was just trying to highlight a significant difference which only gets worse the older you are.

Bloody Nigels, even hijacking the Virgin thread!

Kempus I was just pointing out the annual increment would be £800 different incase this wasn't general knowledge. I hadn't looked at the affect of this over a career. The new pp34 isn't negotiable. At the moment the only option to us is to vote for Bmi integration and accept the above or vote no an face the possibility of a jetstar/Iberia express at LHR. ( enough of that as I don't want to hijack the thread)

Sorry to those I may have offended by mentioning BA as an option but as Ron is in the hold pool and VA isn't the safest option at present I don't think it's totally off topic and is worth considering.

And enough of the Nigel bashing ;-)

I was only taking the piss, no offence intended! :)

My point of view is that the world will most likely be a very different place 30 years from now, especially in terms of available fossil energy supplies (peak oil) and the effect on the transport sector and the impact on the world economy. Although I would not mind elaborating on this subject, this is not the right thread to do so.

In view of this, I would certainly not move to a long haul only carrier. As already mentioned, people will most likely shift from long haul to short haul vacations especially when fuel prices and taxes go up.

I have never done long haul, but feedback from friends who have done it would strongly suggest that it potentially shortens one's life span. Short haul on EZY for many years really isn't that bad, I've done it for almost nine now and the ACARS makes life much easier. Working out of a more northern base like MAN would give you the chance to do 'pretend' long haul flying to places like Sharm and Paphos. Sure, there's long 4 sector days, but we also get 2 & 3 sector days as well as SBY's. The fixed roster allows me to plan my life well ahead (I could work out if I am on a day off on the 24th of Dec 2020!) And the crew food really ain't that bad! One of my few complaints is the lack of staff travel on IATA airlines. That's certainly an advantage of working for airlines like BA or EK, especially considering the premium class privileges. If you could get your partner to work for BA, then you really have the full package!

Maybe... 5+ europe - eastern seaboard with 2 pilots in one month is cream crackering. OTOH 3 - 4 trips with a day off down route and an augmented crew can leave you in a very different (and more healthy) state.

Mind you the new EASA rules may well change all that - for the worse.

I disagree PENKO.

It's not as black and white as that. At EZY LGW you would have at least one transition on day 5 of earliers per month meaning you would finish at 23.30 and not midday.

One a month for 12 months? That's 6 more days at work in the company's time that you're not reimbursed for financially and you do not get that rest back in another block. By 1300 on that 5th day you should be at home resting, not starting! Period.

And regarding the 5th day of lates - I ask you; is it really 4 days off after lates. You're not even home by midnight and then on your 4th 'day off' you have to be up by 0430 the following day to start day 1 of earlies thereby rendering that final half-day as, by and large, useless..!

FLR - I agree, what is it about the pressurisation of EZY's 319's. My ears were always popping in the climb and descent. I think we had the cabin up at 8700 in the cruise did we not.

On the 330 I'm now on we have it at 6400 ish and I've yet to pop..! Beautifully comfortable: ok:

Technicalities dear Craggenmore, the kind of which I'm sure my colleagues at other (legacy) airlines have to endure once in a while. At least we do not transition to earlies.

At the moment I'm following a nice discussion at the worlds oldest airline regarding age discrimination and pilots who 'dare' to fly beyond their 56th birthday. So much emotion, so much hatred for their own colleagues, my goodness. I thought those guys were the happiest people on the planet flying for the best of the best...

Actually I understand perfectly well what they are going through, it just shows that everything is relative and that the grass is never really much greener.

Drying and Dying.
 

FL430 in the "large" corporate jet I fly (occasionally) has Cabin Altitude of +/- 3500 feet.

Crew food is good too.

Not being flippant, I used to fly A320,330 and 340. I always felt "dry as a bone" by the end of a long day and regularly had ear pops. Especially on the A320.

Flying is bad for you whatever. Try to do as little as possible is my aim.:ok:

Never mind cosmic radiation......

Comanche
 

And how many Millisieverts of Cosmic Radiation do I get in my 250 hours flying a year compared to 750 or 900 hours airline flying? Especially as we don't go anywhere near Polar regions.

Last time I checked, there wasn't much.

But thanks for your misguided concern. Appreciated.

Anyhow, let's get back to the real debate. And it isn't the one about cabin altitude.

Same here, lot's of ear infections when I was flying the A319. Dunno if it was those 4 daily packs off take off's, fatigue making me more susceptible to bacteria, bad cockpit hygiene or what whatever.

As for the 60 million Dollar question, EZY command v.s. long haul F/O, it all comes down to how you are situated in life.

*) Marriage problems: happen both in short haul and long haul. If someone can not keep their :mad: inside their pants on a nightstop, then something is usually something fundamentally wrong in the marriage, or the person in question has very limited personal responsibility, again a fundamental issue which has little to do with long haul or short haul.

*) Money: sure, money makes the world go round and it's important to get a proper compensation for the work and responsibilities involved. However, that said, again I see a lot of very irresponsible pilots around. People who squander enormous amounts of money on cars, gadgets, clothes, houses, vacations etc without paying off their student debt. These people are and will be permanently caught in a rat race where a promotion (capt) will only lead to more spending. It's these kind of 'command and/or type rating chasers' that usually recommend you to follow the money (short haul upgrade) instead of working for a decent outfit doing a job you enjoy despite having less money at the end of the month. I never forget the time with EZY and comparing my roster to the person left of me. I "only" had 20-30 sectors that month and the captain I was flying with me was suggesting that 'that's bad, because you don't make a lot of money.' The look on his face was priceless when I told him that I couldn't care less about the money and preferred to live healthy, but hey, this guy had an expensive car, an ex-wife (see point number 1 about marriage!) and a very expensive lifestyle to pay for so he needed all those sectors. Talking about being a slave to debt...

*) Job satisfaction: for lot's of people being a captain is the ultimate in job satisfaction, or so they think being an F/O's. Some people love those 4 sector days of up-and-down's. For others it's those long straight and level sectors, the long haul life of actually seeing something of this planet we live on instead of just tarmacs and the road to/from work.

It's all personal, don't let 'the four stripes' or the 'wide body jet rating' be instrumental in making the decision.

Life is more than just hard work, and if you think you will enjoy long haul, if you can be reasonably sure that the wife won't end up in bed with the tennis teacher or yourself in bed with some trolley dolly, if you are responsible with money and you don't need the extra cash 4 stripes bring you, if you're sick and tired (literally!) from flogging a 737 or 319 throughout Europe, if you are willing to take the risk of switching jobs in economic uncertain times, and last but not least, if you can join a stable career oriented airline which offers both long haul and also short haul then I would definitely consider it.

As for myself, when I left EZY, I never had to think long or hard whether or not to take the job offer for the company I now work for. I don't live to work, I work to live and in EZY I found that I was not living my life the way I wanted. In EZY I was having serious health problems with those continuous 'early-to-late' duties with only a few days in between which were only enough to rest, never enough to really fully recover. I felt that I was ageing twice as fast in EZY and despite some jet lag, my life, health and social life have improved by 100% after leaving that Orange bullsh!t behind. I felt like a zombie in EZY, always behind the powercurve for as far as fatigue was concerned. Five long 10-11 duty hours EZY earlies with barely enough time to drive home, get a proper (not crew!) meal at home and sleep, and I was a complete wreck. Social life: nearly non-existent. Same for the short haul lates.

In my current long haul job I'm also occasionally tired, however I'm not wrecked from squeezing out 4 short haul sectors on pure adrenaline after a bad night's sleep. There's a big difference between being tired or being wrecked! I'm 'just' tired after a long (night) flight and usually I have a couple of days off to fully recharge the battery. My sleep pattern has improved (despite long haul!), I have more energy, I do more sports, meet more people and I'm rarely ill.

As for job security: there is none! Nowhere! Sure, perhaps if the whole world economy implodes then the EZY and RYR pilots will still have a "job" but don't ask how much they will be making in real terms (net pay minus their liabilities), or under what conditions. Personally, I'm pretty sure I'd rather be unemployed, live off my savings or venture into a completely different career instead of working for a low cost airline in such a scenario. :}

That said, timing is everything, and in today's economic reality I would definitely wait a bit until things stabilize before switching companies.

p.s. be careful judging the merit of the recommendations you read here because with a few exceptions, most people recommending the EZY 4 stripes probably never have flown long haul. When I left EZY, lot's of FO's and young freshly upgraded captains (mind you, all these people only had short haul experience!) were trying to convince me to stay in EZY and go for my command with all kinds of horror stories they had heard about long haul flying. Most simply had (and still have!) no clue what they are talking about, and the ones that did have a clue (ex-BA B747 pilots who joined EZY after retirement) all actually recommended making the move. ;)

or maybe he's just a human being! and after he said no 2 or 3 times the 4th is a yes!

Dude enough with your long haul advertising campaign already. We get it, you love your new job.

This thread is about the move to VAA, which in my opinion would be wrong because I don't see how in these days and age (internet, hotel websites, cheap flights etc..) a charter company can ever make money and expand again.
So to be at the bottom of the seniority list of a difficult (from the career point of view, considering the jobs available on the market) airplane doesn't make sense if you are employed by one of the biggest and most profitable company in Europe.

We need to respect what we have, especially in the times we are going through.

I guess you're right, so let's get back on topic advertising EZY and short haul whilst bashing long haul, by dragging "jet lag," "sleeping in your own bed" "four stripes" and "cosmic radiation" into the debate. :rolleyes:

As for VAA, I definitely would recommend against joining VAA, period. They have a nasty reputation of 'not standing by their staff' in times of turmoil, instead firing them at the first sign of trouble. But yes, there is life beyond low cost short haul... ;)

No simple answer here as it's always going to be a personal choice. Virgin is a deeply unhappy company at the moment and there is no sign things will improve. Quite the opposite in fact. The company will try and use every trick in the book to adopt a new scheduling agreement that will doubtless see pilots working harder under the false promise of improved bid satisfaction if the pilots are dumb enough to vote for it.

Is it all bad? Well no actually. But the odd good trip still to be had doesn't pay the mortgage, won't compensate for a possible 15 year wait for command and the inherent lack of job security in a company that does not value it's pilots.

What exactly was the terms of those made redundant last time round?

I have heard a multitude of different stories, ranging from full redundancy (compulsory), some offered re-employment but having to re-attend selection (!), through to temporary sabbaticals.

What exactly did happen? Did you get a choice?

So, what was the decision? Did he choose Virgin?

Yeah which did you go for?