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I met a chap recently who had just finished all his training.
Great young bloke, somebody who I think has great potential. Good cockpit management in the Sim, not a bad pair of hands, and a good attitude. He had never stalled, and never spun, and from now on will never really fly again since he just got a job flying for Ryanair rather than working his way up through the fun stuff. His piloting, rather than cockpit management skills are only going one way from here no-matter how much other good wisdom he accretes. Sad really, because he will probably never enjoy flying as much as he would have in times past. The simple fact is that there are some areas of aviation that have far better terms and conditions than in days of old, and funny old thing, they are the areas that are actually tricky and require skills and training. Offshore work, SAR and waterbombing are examples. They involve real flying skill rather than 200hrs and a certificate and thus are more immune to the plague of kids with rich parents/stupid bank managers. |
73addict
Ironic that your world believes that Flight Sims are the same as real flying in terms of emergency training. My world still requires us to do it for real. Just remind me the last time you did an actual V1 cut under the hood? Just remind me the last time you flew at VMCA? Just remind me the last time you pulled to the stick push or carried out an inflight shutdown and relight? I agree. Flight Sims don't really count as flying. PENKO I agree, not rocket science but enough to keep you working the brain cells. I sometimes think I am worse in a glass cockpit because the arousal is so low. This is compounded by the tendency to believe that these modern systems wont fail so you trust them too much, whereas some old stuff I have flown failed all the time so required constant monitoring keeping you up to speed in parallel with the systems ready to take over. Again, I am in agreement over the initial systems learning being perhaps much harder and possibly too hard if a quick glance at the Air France A330 thread is anything to go by. Lots of Bus pilots on there who seem to disagree about most things. |
Off you go again, I am sensing a massive crater sized chip on your shoulder here concerning rich parents! For you information I know a huge number of people who self funded their way through training with massive bank loans and nothing to do with their parents. They are still paying their loans back after a good number of years.
I think you will find the desire to fly is the dream and the driving force and some people are go getters and others just complain about the how unfair life is and how they have been wronged in some way. Oh and I don't know much about Ryanair but I believe there is quite a bit of hand flying involved. There certainly was in charter especially in the Greek isles. Difference between your world and the one you are ranting about and insulting is simple. In our world we have £50+million aircraft flying with 190+ passengers onboard and it is just not practical to go out and fly these aircraft around doing what you love to show off about. Again FYI most of us will do a V1 cut in the sim every 6months! I know not in the aircraft but having had a real life one it is easier in real life than in the sim! FACT. Lets compare apples with apples shall we and not try a p*****g contest. |
73adict
"I wonder what could possibly be the reason for there being more pilots!!!" :ugh::ugh: Think what you have just said through..... In the old days, lets say we flew 5 million pax from gatwick and needed 10000 pilots (imaginary number) Now we fly 31 million so should need 60000 odd pilots. Good so far? However, we have even more pilots to create a glut! It is now so easy to get a licence that we have well over 6 times as many even though the terms and conditions are vastly worse for the majority. You have just proved my point. |
"I am sensing a massive crater sized chip on your shoulder here concerning rich parents! For you information I know a huge number of people who self funded their way through training with massive bank loans and nothing to do with their parents. They are still paying their loans back after a good number of year"
;) No chip, I have rich parents, and I did say "rich parents/stupid bank managers" which seems to cover your statement. I am on this thread because I despise the whingeing on this pprune about how hard life is. We get what we deserve. If you want better pay, then get a skill others don't. "Oh and I don't know much about Ryanair but I believe there is quite a bit of hand flying involved. " I don't think you and I quite have the same picture of what constitutes hand flying. I am not suggesting that an airliner is the place for proper hand flying, but I do believe that at some stage in an airline pilots career he should have done a bit of pulling the wings off. |
"I know not in the aircraft but having had a real life one it is easier in real life than in the sim! FACT"
Damn. Now you have me at a disadvantage. I don't have a special key on my keboard that makes something incontrivertable just by typing "fact" in capitals :hmm: Wait, let me try it. I am hung like a baboon FACT Hmm, doesn't seem to be working..... :{ Incidentally, nothing screams "loser" quite like starting a pissing contest and then crying off when you lose it. Nice edit of your first post in reply to me by the way.:= |
Oh I do love pprune debates. I finally realise why my wife watches Emmerendersoakdalestreet every night. Priceless.
Seeing as this has become a comedy thread, I see it this way:- In the old days we had double-d clutches. It was tricky to master a mere gear change. You got a driving licence by winking at the postman but only the true greats got to drive the E-Type. Everyone else drove inspired driver's cars like the original Mini, but we were all rally-drivers in our own minds. Driving slowly was fun and driving fast even more so on the empty roads, but sometimes incredibly hard work because of the poor quality road surface. Getting a job flying a Boeing 737 is like buying a Ferrari 458 in the modern day. Any moron can step out of their BSM Corsa after a driving test, rob their folks or borrow some loot and slide into into the driving seat of a high performance and technologically advanced supercar. I'm willing to bet that they'll be able to drive it safely enough to avoid crashing on the way to Tesco with their Granny in the passenger seat. Very few people could drive the same Ferrari 458 at high speed around a tricky racetrack that requires Lewis Hamilton handling skills without making acquaintence with a grandstand or two. But does that stop lottery winners and footballers from buying them? No, because very few of those Ferraris will ever see a race track. They spend their lives on busy but anodine public roads being driven very sedately for fear of getting a ticket or crashing into roadabouts in the wet. Do we all need to be Lewis Hamiltons? It's the same in flying and that's the reason why.... Oh hell... I've forgotten where my analogy was heading... balls. :p PS: I prefer things the way they were in the heyday, but I live in 2011 and am making the most of my opportunities now. |
Tourist,
The airlines/aviation world have taken the gamble that we don't need good pilots anymore because the systems so rarely go wrong. I think that they are wrong, but the people who set the standards for licences and type ratings seem to disagree. It seems that, these days, all you need to be a "good" "pilot" is an encyclopedic knowledge of the Ops manua, a willingness to follow rules without thinking and an ability to programme an FMS to fly a hold. The children of the magenta line make me cry at night. Mike, when you need to drive your Ferrari like Mr Hamilton will you be able to if you haven't been taught the required skill? To continue your analogy airline flying is, I agree, mostly on public roads but every now and again you'll find yourself screaming up to Maggots at 600 knots. You'd appreciate having the ability to sort it out then wouldn't you! |
Yep, you're absolutely right! :)
I have said, from the very start of my time on this website, that I would prefer to have started off in light aircraft, flown air taxis, twotters, the ATR etc. In fact, I never had a dream to fly jets. I trained as a pilot not for the money or glamour but for the flying. But I am a realist and as I came to this as a second career, my responsibilities and better half's needs dictated my career path. I'm unhappy at being labelled a child of the magenta line and it's primarily because the truth hurts. I know I don't have the raw flying skills I'd like to have. However, I am doing my utmost in my line flying to 'teach myself' because I know the system won't. 1500 hours on type and I'm even more acutely aware of my limitations, but the key is that 'I am aware' and I am doing something about it. Happy flying and motoring. |
Mike I wasn't calling you a magenta child, I'd written that before you'd posted, but glad to see you trying not to be.:ok:
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Where has it all gone wrong….
Airlines are creating Microsoft pilots rather than aviators who can’t fly without assistance of computers. Too many young entrants, many whom have been sponsored by family members are willing to work to poor terms and conditions and pay. Oh… it’s not just the newbies… you can also thank the unions in the US who have rolled over on the industry and their fellow colleagues too… and what for… to concede to their lords and masters and take pay cuts, termination of retirement benefits, accepting medical insurance worse than that could be received by medicare. And the negotiators??? That’s even better… former union MECs working for those lord and masters responsible for negotiating those pay and benefits cuts.. Unfortunately, the disease is spreading around the globe, and there is no inoculation for cure. |
Sorry Andrew7, the good old days dissapeared when people like yourself started paying for type ratings, now anyone can fly and the capts you fly with are probably of the same ilk. In my day you were selected and paid to do a rating, so many I see now that are paying their way and buying the job. Thankfully the airlines taking people like you can tell from experience, who paid their way and those who didnt and thus generally the pay as you go types end up in the crappier outfits. The good jobs are still out there,mainly overseas but the filter is higher for low hour guys.Im guessing you ended up in a pretty sad organisation, certainly sounds like it .
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In the old days we had double-d clutches. |
Hi Tourist,
Your original post made you look like a member of Spectators Balcony, hence my response, having looked at your posts on PPRUNE, your many posts in the Military Forum on Rotary issues, I assume identify your credentials. My background is Gliders,GA,Old Tprops,Modern TProps, Glass Cockpit Widebody over 20 years, so I have seen both a bit of old and new. You are simply a Reactionary. We do not need to be military pilots, that was a skill set that may have been appropriate for civil pilots in the 60's, but not today. It is the equivalent of a bunch of Imperial Flying Boat pilots denigrating 707 pilots for having Autopilots and INS. Whether you like it or not, modern pilots need to be commercially aware and run the operation efficiently. This is a different skill set appropriate for today. It may not save your life, but it will keep you employed. We need to be well trained commercial pilots, so that we can be safe. We are safe, statistics prove it. QED, training is adequate. When you start to look at unusual accidents like the French 330, it is just as likely that the automation led to the accident, as any inadequacy in the crew's response. That statement could exactly apply to a certain military helicopter accident a few years ago. I am yet to see definitive proof of an fatal accident being caused by the inexperience of a cadet pilot. But every year something flies into the ground piloted by an arrogant 'old school' Captain, mostly in the developing world, admittedly. There are more pilots because there are more pax flying. As that figure rises and falls, so do the job prospects. Nothing new here. Pay-to-Fly?, GIll Air were at that 15 years ago. Didn't see too many complaints about pilots with 1500 hrs light a/c flying, then onto a dodgy old turboprop. This, is one area I would agree with you, though, as I'm very glad I have had the variety of flying, so that I can now see which side my bread is buttered on. Andrew7 may rue the day that he became a pilot and the disappointment that it has bought him. With another 30 years ahead of him, I'm surprised he's not suicidal! |
Where did it all go wrong?
''even though I had to sign a training bond for a type rating I already had''. I wonder! |
When you start to look at unusual accidents like the French 330, it is just as likely that the automation led to the accident, as any inadequacy in the crew's response. Yes, my thoughts are very harsh, but it's the system that permits less than adequate pilots into the cockpit of large jet airliners at the mercy of the innocent public.:mad: |
Whether you like it or not, modern pilots need to be commercially aware and run the operation efficiently. This is a different skill set appropriate for today. It may not save your life, but it will keep you employed. |
Yes, this is precisely the point, to operate commercial transport jets in todays environment, you need to be a well trained, safe, commercially aware pilot.
Managing an emergency will keep you alive. Managing the operation of your flight efficiently, will keep you employed. CAPTJNS, I cannot agree with that and there is ample indication on other threads to support the theory that the crew were presented with information from their instruments and warning systems which was contradictory and confusing. MAYBE, another pilot would have done the less obvious thing and walked away, sadly we will never know. |
Managing an emergency will keep you alive. Managing the operation of your flight efficiently, will keep you employed. |
WHERE DID IT ALL GO WRONG?
Simple. Sometime in the '80s (give or take) most of the state owned behemoths and non state owned but heavily subsidised carriers were cut adrift and told to make their own way. Democracy came along too - even the great unwashed decided they too could take a flight for a fiver, and how many fivers does it take to tip the driver? In addition, our skills base became transferrable and globalised. Or to put it another way; 'It doesn't matter what you do or make in this world, someone will always come and do or make a !!!!tier job of it for less'. In our case, a few will come and do the same job for less. |
...AF447. A case of pilots with no manual flying skills.
macdo
"...there is ample indication on other threads to support the theory that the crew were presented with information from their instruments and warning systems which was contradictory and confusing." Zero excuse for an inability to manually maintain configuration: Keeping present cruise thrust set, maintaining cruise attitude (typically 2.5 degrees nose up) . . . by just looking at (and trusting), the self powered standby attitude indicator. Instinctive. Elementary. Nothing more to do until out of the turbulent weather. Instead, one overwhelmed P/F reacts by saying: "I Have Control" and pulls the stick, climbing 3000 feet into a stall. :{ |
The airlines that put these unqualified folks in the cockpit are part of the problem and thus responsible for the outcome of such tragedies. As they say… tuition comes at a very dear price… and in the case of AF447 lives.
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Seriously people let it go with the AF447 crash. No-one is disputing that pilot error occurs, but to harp on about one incident is a bit much. Yes there are others too but look at the other side of the fence. REAL pilots as you would call them crash too. There are numerous examples of military/civil/light aircraft crashes that were also pilot error.
Ultimately yes as a commercial pilot we do not physically fly as much as other pilots in different areas of the piloting world, but that is because it is just not practical. The world has changed and everything is about bottom lines, commercial pressures and economics. This is what drives our T and C's now. For this we have to thank many people: government, companies, individuals etc. It is certainly not just the self sponsor types that have changed our industry. It is always easy to sit behind the computer/desk or in a comfy armchair and make judgements on events that have happened to others but I don't believe it serves a purpose. All we can hope is that we will step up to the challenge when it arises and be able to solve whatever situation has arisen. Learn from the past and from others actions. NEVER say NEVER. |
True ...... True ...... True!
Though as my avatar suggests, I got out too early at fifty three, I nonetheless did 25 years finishing up as senior management pilot on international routes.
Back in the "good old days" we travelled first class when deadheading, got top salaries, conditions, accomodation and virtually anything we wanted, including $$$$$$$$ was "just about" there for the taking. But as already said that was when pilots had a big role in running the airline, knew the value of MORALE - rude word these days - and generally treated their crews with much respect. Then it all went to s*it when management was taken over by bean counters, dropkicks from other failed airlines/companies and those who believed pilot bashing was the in sport. Me? I had the best of the best for my entire career and though I still miss flying dreadfully, I now see the attitudes of management, airline employees, cabin crew and the general public and know that whether you have a great job or not, the business of drilling holes in the sky has lost all of it's glamour and adventure. It's a sad feeling to see a job I once loved and respected go down the gurgler! Example??? Have a look at QANTAS? Being torn apart by some halfwit from the UK who has absolutely no idea of what Pilots (and Engineers) are all about! Bugga!! |
I said this in another thread in this forum. Flying aeroplanes is a great job day to day, but aviation is a really tough and expensive career.
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You said it RTE.
As a TAA 727 FO before the war I worked with what was once a high standard domestic airline, and much of the conditions you described went on there and in Reg's mob too. The crew were good, aircraft were good, conditions, hours etc, and a lot of pride in one's profession and Company. In short it was worth the hard bloody work to get there. All that changed of course when the Fat :mad: got Jimmy Bow Tie teed up after he obtained the corrupted Silver Bogie on his payroll, and decided to do a Lorenzo spinoff. But I'm not posting to go over history - the point is the days when being an airline pilot meant something are gone, and gone forever. Its a mug's game and has been for some time now. The shoe is now on the other foot - pilots should use outfits now to suit THEIR agendas. Once a !!!!ty outfit has served your purpose, move on to another better one until you have extracted what you required. Quit and move on to an even better one. I have been doing this for 20 years now and each time I've made an advancement both financially and careerwise. Adapt to the new system out there, and gain as much as you can. Use up these bastards the same way as they use up you. Loyalty to one's employer has no place in 21st century airline industry. |
Barriers to entry
If this has been said, apologies.
There has always been and will continue to be for the foreseeable future a great pool of young men and women who aspire to be pilots both military and civil. Their talents will very and also their social circumstances and ability to pay. In today's low cost airline environment, all airlines are reducing Ts & Cs and the low cost guys have led the way. There isn't enough profit in these fares to pay us well, you can't be paid at Flybe what you can at Thomson. Any individual line pilot can easily be lost to the company and there is no material detriment to the business. This isn't so in a law firm / brokerage / private clinic. Those guys trade on reputation, we are anonymous operational staff. We are not professionals in the old sense, our job is too modern for that and we don't therefore have any decent ties to government to help us defend the industry. Whilst we all know that a good Captain runs a safe and economical operation, the managers don't see this detail and in any case calculate that a much lower total pilot budget is in the best interests of the company and any individual managers bonus. Take the keys, bring it back in one piece, minimum standard, low cost. The engineers have saved us all from being tested except on the rarest of occasions, and that has meant ever decreasing standards and less able pilots doing an acceptable job (in financial terms). I do believe that we are heading for an accident or two in low cost in Europe, but such is the low probability of that, it could be tomorrow or in 10 yrs time. Our only defense as I see it, and which BALPA, has worked little on is to stop the lowering of barriers to entry. CTC / Oxfordnow select mainly on ability to pay. I recently spoke to a cabin crew member who failed the selection at CTC but was going back in 6 weeks to resit that portion. In the past people were not invited back for years. Every person undertaking ATPL exams is cheating. All the schools have almost every question available, the quality of so called feedback is almost perfect. It cannot have been gained through feedback of remembered questions but only through wholesale copy. It is a gross dereliction of duty for the licensing authorities not to prevent this and uphold the standards of their exams. With the MPPL the difficult initial IR test has been done away with. A parents ability to pay is not sufficient grounds to entrust passengers to their spawn. Trainers at easyJet are now complaining of attitude and ability problems with Cadets. If the pilot workforce fails to raise barriers to entry we will continue the downward trend as airlines seek to fill the RHS as cheaply as possible, leaving the question of finding suitable captains till a later date and a different manager. BALPA has failed. To ensure the safe conduct of European passenger flights we must raise barriers to entry and awareness by: Demanding stringent testing of potential pilots, academic and practical. Raising awareness amongst parents of potential pilots of conditions and prospects Raising awareness amongst the travelling public of who is flying them, how much training they have had, their lifestyle in terms of pay, debt, work and rest. --------- ---apologies for any iPad induced typographic errors |
Loss of flight skills
"When you start to look at unusual accidents like the French 330, it is just as likely that the automation led to the accident, as any inadequacy in the crew's response. "
In ME training, it used to be drummed into the student that the good engine can take you to the scene of the crash if a/c not flown correctly. Now Automation can take you to the seen of the stall - not just AF447, but Colgan, Thomsonfly B737, Turkish B737 AMS. Only in latter case was the earth too close for a stall recovery. Over the past 10 years Pilot loss of control is the No1 killer in Commercial aviation. It is not just the sheer number of flights having increased. This is a percentage of total flights. Manual handling and automation airmanship skills have faded industry wide. The training system is partly to blame. Industry is repsonding: SKYbrary - Loss of Control http://www.safeopsys.com/docs/RAES_URT_MASTER.pdf |
The Problem?
English Management who grew up under Thatcher and now run airlines. = Wipe out all who are smaller than thou. (For foreigners ((non-english)) - watch "Billy Elliot") |
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