I was a DC-10 captain with Laker when we went bust.

Not long afterwards, I was invited for an interview with a US Part 121 carrier. Money was certainly discussed but trivia certainly was not.

One of my friends just could not get his head around the fact that you had to buy your own uniform (38NW Street) Miami. Not only that, he could not accept the fact that we were going to wear single breasted jackets instead of his traditional double breasted version. The whole lot including two sets of pants came to $120.

One hour flight pay was $140.

But he didn't see it that way.

And so it was that he spent the rest of his aviation career on Jetstreams working for a UK carrier (at Birmingham).

I have to say that I have never met anyone apart from TG who would give up his future aviation career for the sake of his demand for a double-breasted uniform, but, as the French would say, "chaque a son gout".

I gave up a long time ago trying to figure out what makes people tick.

That's a lovely story, but we're not talking about one hours worth of pay here.

It'd be interesting to know what sort of fees the BRK pilots are being forced to pay for this setup and how the management of their money actually works.

Being a contractor is actually very simple, just set up a ltd co. (just a few quid) register for tax, N.I and VAT (if applicable) and get an accountant to sort everything out. A good accountant shouldn't cost you any more than £80 a month.

Other fees are then your public liability, employers liability etc, but that shouldn't be more than £400 a year even for someone who works airside. (Obviously!)

If you haven't got control over who your accountants are, then I can't really see how you are a seperate ltd co. Don't forget that as a contractor, you are both the director and employee and so how you can be forced into this sort of thing baffles the mind.

It doesn't make sense for BRK/RYR either unless they are using it to make money or exert control. Using contractors is usually done as it's the simplist way to get decent staff at short notice. It's usually a bit more expensive long term than having employed staff, but contractors give you much more flexibility and control over your costs. This is not normally to the employees benefit obviously!

The accountants charge 3% of your entire income to cover all their fees. This was the deal when I saw the contract 2 years ago.

Aside from this there are several other costs. However as I'm not familiar with the Irish tax system, NHS, insurance etc I can't say how big of an impact this will have on your income.

These CXC and Mcnamarra schemes are the direct result of an investigation by the Irish treasury into Dublin. One fine day someone woke up and realised that year after year Ryanair had been increasing the amount of aircraft based in Dublin but magically the amount of Ryanair employees had stabilsed.

Eventually the treasury declared the Brookfield contracts as they were insatisfactory and this is where the Irish ltd. companies come in. They basically serve as a tax buffer between the Irish government and Ryanair. It doesn't cost Ryanair anything, but the Irish get their money regardless. Everybody happy. Except for the poor kid who gets squeezed for every euro he earned.

Working with contracts is much cheaper for Ryanair. What little in extra pay they have to give you is offset by not having any administration costs, social security contribution, no required insurance coverage, no pension schemes. Etc...

But for the most part it is administration. Remember that even though we fly nearly 300 aircraft, the White House is staffed by just a handful of people. Administration costs have to be kept down for Ryanair at all cost.

3% of the gross... Blimey.

The use of contractors only works in this case because RYR crews aren't paid normal contractor rates! If they were, then it would be cheaper to have people in the white house to manage the whole game.

Everytime I read a RYR thread on here it both depresses and amuses me. Depressing as I can see what's happening to the profession that I love, but amusing in that I cannot believe what RYR get away with and so I have a lot of respect for their moxie, if not their morals.

However, all RYR crews are adults and therefore capable of making their own decisions. The fact that I think they're loonies for putting up with this isn't really relevant. It just makes me glad that I refused to go down the route of RYR to pay the bills.

I object to being called a loonie! ;)

The Ryanair pilot body is made up out of several different background.

New joiners are either unwillingly ignorant such as the new cadets who have no connections inside the industry and thus only know it from the outside.

Or they are desperate. Such as the hundreds of pilots coming from companies that went bankrupt and find themselves in an impossible position. Show me a man who will refuse to take a job purely on principal when he has a wife and kids at home.

Once in Ryanair you will find the pilot body consists of several groups as well.

1. Those nearing retirement and who can't be bothered to move any more.
2. Those blinded by the promise of a base transfer back home or a quick command.
3. Those too new to the industry to understand what is going on.
4. Those who complain all the time but will never leave.
5. Those who listened carefully to their peers and slowly have come to the realization they need to find a place to start an actual career.

Only the last group will leave.

I cannot disagree with any of that.

Oh and you're not a loony unless you signed onto that atrocious deal in the last 3 years! ;)

I know quite a few RYR pilots in position 5 and nearly all of them have jumped ship recently. All of them are now wondering what on earth they were doing for the last few years!

I know why people work for RYR and I don't want to get into a debate about it. I worked for a now defunct cargo airline that made RYR look like the promised land in comparison, so I'm very aware of what people will put up with to get a start in this business!

I'm not au fait with Irish tax law, but in the UK they'd be avoiding paying National Insurance contributions, which is not insignificant.

There are a myriad of reason to use or not use contractors. RYR have made the choice to use solely contractors now and it works for them. If the market picks up and more recruitment starts at other airlines, then it might bite them in backside, but that's by no means certain.

I understand that of the 3%:

Brookfield get 1%
Ryanair get 1%
accountants get 1%

On top of that we are charged 30 euros/month as "bank charges" to transfer wages.:=

I also heard that St James managment is owned/run by Mrs O'leary, and consequently, the ID cards now make sense:ugh:

Anyone want to give me a job?:sad:

its fairly obvious that there is back handers going on with the brk/acc/ryr scam and that there is a link to st. james within ryr, but i doubt if o leary is interested in little security firms like st james(or whatever they are!!). what does seem strange is that its in bishop stortford,only a little town before ryr came to town.
there was a rumor before about o leary being linked to procious a few years back, same old goonies coming out to play me thinks!!

i personally cant wait until the uk govt gives the irish lads a little buzz to say we want some tax from all the brk people based in the uk. if enough people in the uk say they want to pay tax at home but cant because ryr/brk have this scam going then we shouldn't have to wait too long.(before everybody starts,i know about the cross border tax agreement between uk and ireland but its a choice we all should have.)

The UK based guys are paying UK tax now through the accounting scheme so it has already started to be a problem.

I think BRK pilots pay Irish PRSI or the equivalent in the country in which they reside. I do.

Surely the Accountant's 3% is a business expense and therefore gets tax relief? :confused:

@mikehotel. Look at payslip, 3% is taken away before the figure you pay tax on. Therefore you its the same as deducting it! Hope that helps?

You might get tax relief on it, but you still have to pay it and you only get a % tax relief on it anyway.

3% is a hell of a lot to be paying. Far more than if you did it another way. That's more than triple what I pay my accountant when it all works out.

The ID is an 'expense' but you still have to fork out of your own pocket for it....:ugh:

@irishpilot - yep, thanks, I checked my 'payslip' and that seems right.

I always wonder how many (ex)RYR pilots are actually replying to threads like these. Or are the topics filled by non-pilots or frustrated pilots who are flying at other airlines? Frustrated yes, because I can´t imagine why else you would reply in a RYR-topic? I know a few RYR pilots and they are actually all quite happy with their current position, none of them is thinking about leaving.

I also signed up with the Irish and I can already say you know: I´ll be earning more at RYR then with my current (IT) job, not to mention I´ll be making some 737 hours. Offcourse there are betters jobs out on the market, but you have to be really really really lucky to be to one who gets it. And then you also have loads of flyingjobs which are worse then a job at RYR.

It´s funny to see people always attacking RYR (keeping the attention away from your own company?). RYR is not the best, but also not the worst employer around.

Come and revisit this post in 3 years mate. ;)

Another naif to the slaughter. How predictable.

Xolon, why don't you tell us what experience you have working as a pilot? I don't mean training, I mean actually earning a living wage?

A few 737 hours will mean nothing to you when you've a few thousand in the book. An aircraft is an aircraft and flying is a job. A good one of course, but after a bit of time you'll realise that an airliner is a tool and not a toy.

As SK mentions, come back to this thread in a few years and we'll see what you think then.

I will :ok:

''because I can´t imagine why else you would reply in a RYR-topic?''

I can imagine why (speaking as a non RYR pilot). It's because Ryanair have degraded pilots terms and conditions more than any other airline to the extent they have had an effect on the whole industry. We have all been affected by this and the lifestyle we once enjoyed will never return. Of course you may not see it that way because you are probably one of the new breed of pilot who thinks it's normal to pay for their own rating, line training, uniform, accomodation, car parking, in flight food and company ID. And also effectively be employed as a part time contractor and end up unemployed over winter.

But not so many years ago, it wasn't like that. And although you're excited now to be flying a jet, I can guarentee the gloss will wear off far faster under the modern airline employment practices. I too look forward to your reply in three years!

Stooge or less than 200 hours in the airline...... if it's the latter, you'll learn within 3 months, not 3 years.

Everyone is trying to leave from the boardroom down, to TRE's, base Captains, line Captains, SFI's and FO's.

Naif? No, I know what I doing. I not that fond of paying everything out of my own pocket (yes, I do think paying for an uniform, id card, assessmment, etc) is ridiculous. But if that´s what it takes to get a job, then I´m not one of those stubborn kids rejecting the job, staring itself blind on a B777 job as S/O at BA, LH, KLM.

Like I said; I´m getting paid more at RYR then I´m getting now at my cosy, predictable, IT-job. So for getting paid more (having more financial room) and actually flying while getting paid, I´m willing to take experience as a RYR pilot. The job market is pretty terrible and after 2 years of jobhunting I´m glad of getting this offer.

It´s easy to respond negative against RYR having a job at an airline which pays more, serves you lobster in the cockpit and is only asking you to fly twice a month. But for those not having a job, it´s a whole different ballgame and I sometimes wonder if those steady-job-pilots do understand this? Not everyone has the possibility to reject every offer which isn´t 200% up to their demands. Not everyone has a family willing/able to pay their finances until they found that big job.

That the airline industry isn´t what it used to be during the 80´s, well... we all know that right? Every job has this problem (IT,Marketing,aviation), but I believe the pilots are the ones why are crying the hardest (I can image, as they need to pay the upkeep for their Porsches).

Being a pilot isn´t about the glamour and loads of cash anymore, it´s a well known fact. Maybe I´ll come back on all of this after some time, but at least I´ll be working my a** off while flying and getting paid. Thats better then what I´m doing now :)

"yes, I do think paying for an uniform, id card, assessmment, etc) is ridiculous." - then why are you accepting it? You're right it is ridiculous, most pilots I know are pretty bright and know a bad deal when they see one. I turned down a crap deal (not quite as bad as RYR) 2 years ago on a decent turboprop, 6 months after that and I got into an excellent corporate job, and more recently I turned down a job move to another corporate outfit on better equipment but again the deal was not up to scratch. Saying "no" is acceptable.

I don't know who is worse, those who can see the deal is "ridiculous" but still accept it anyway, or those who think it's actually not too bad.

"but at least I´ll be working my a** off while flying and getting paid" - and this is just remarkable. So you're quite happy to "work your a** off" and never see your family/friends, do cool stuff like go on holiday and enjoy life?

"that's better than what I'm doing now" - time will tell.

You sound like the perfect RYR pilot, willing to work your a** off, and get a terrible deal all at the same time.

Having said all that I do wish you all the best and I hope you enjoy yourself.

Guys lay off him already would you?

The guys is clearly new to the industry and new to Ryanair. Let him be for a year, maybe two, and then ask him again what he thinks of Ryanair.

That's the way it went with me, that's the way it goes for 99% of the new people.

It always makes me giggle when a naieve trainee comes on here and starts spouting on about how RYR is great before they even work for them. I've seen it so many times on here and even to people I've had a hand in training.

They start off all wide eyed and full of wonderment, but 2 years later they hate the place and can't wait to get out.

It would be funny if it wasn't so depressing or wasn't happening to people who I actually give a toss about.

Sad really, but each to their own and everyone has to make their own way in this industry.

This guy xolon is exactly like the rest of you FR chumps who forked out a wad to get to the RHS, leave him alone and let him enjoy 15 minutes of fame just like all you on here complaining did.

Been in FR for nearly 4 years now myself

The money is ok as I work a lot of hours, but the cost of those hours is missing so much in my REAL LIFE!

its like having two lives, one I work hard and pay all my bills but do nothing but recover after my days on, or I work not a lot and cant afford to do anything on my days off because of commuting and lots of extra expenses, the uniforms medical ID etc all eventually add up to real money!

Keep looking at jobs further afield thinking the grass will be greener, but I really just want to go home to the lads and a pint after work in the local, and EK are not going to offer that either!

So I sit in the cruise now working on my own business plan on my laptop to hopefully leave in a years time, (time will tell)

if I could sell my ATPL for the £100k i paid for it tomorrow to some guy, I would not only take the money and run I would probably give him £10k back as a thank you.

I give up to much for FR!

At least you've got a Porsche though. Right? ;)

"At least you've got a Porsche though. Right? "

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Never fails to amaze me how, despite how they start out, these discussions always end up gravitating towards the same subject. Truely amazing.

Anyway, back to counting up my BRK hours.

Xolon Im ex FR, left because I couldn't take the crap smoke and mirrors and the constant battle against management for a reasonable deal. Things have not changed from what I hear from friends still there and what I read. I am not unhappy with my company, and yes its EK. In fact I am very happy here :)

Every company has good and bad but FRs bad outweighs its good by far! I just had £11,500 bonus, a REAL 8.15% pay rise and I am not tired like I used to be in FR plus I earn more as an FO than I did as a captain. I honestly think you will see the light one day FR are all smoke and mirrors!