Max,

Paul pays for a dog. So should he have to bark himself?

See SC's post above ^

What 1% is that? Since the BALPA subscription is tax deductable I can’t work out where the 1% is you talk about.

As for “useless” take a look at the various T&C’s on offer and see which company is currently offering the best. Then look at what percentage of BALPA membership is in that company? It could be coincidence but I doubt it.

If all you want is legal representation then there are cheaper ways to get it…but the cover offered is very limited and the lawyers won’t just take up your case because you say so. They will look at the case merits and decide if they stand a good chance of winning and go from there…just like BALPA. They also won’t help you keep your job when you suffer that brain fart as we all sometimes do. They won’t be lobbying parliament etc etc. I’ve sat as condemned prisoner’s friend on more than one occasion. We got results that no lawyer would achieve.

As I found out when I got involved, BALPA do a better job than most people believe. There is a staggering amount of work going on behind the scenes that is not apparent unless you look or suddenly find yourself doing it. It’s not perfect by any stretch of imagination but there is nothing currently on offer that is better.

Having seen first hand some of the wheezes tabled by our management (and they are an enlightened lot when compared to some) I have realised that the Victorian mill owner mindset is alive and well in 2010.

Paul is not paying for a dog, he is joining an association. That association helps him achieve his aims through collective action and effort. If it fails him as he claims, then he needs to ensure that that is corrected. If the majority of his colleagues agree with him, then he and his colleagues have to get off their backsides and stand together and resolve the issue.

BALPA is Paul and his colleagues, not some super hero army that will ride in and fight their battles for them.

As per DiagonalLeg earlier, I have no real strong feelings in this fight.

I'm not working as a pilot, not looking like I ever will due to advancing years, necessity for return on my training investment and economic outlook, so I gave up my student membership.
The only real gripe I have with Balpa (as opposed to impressions of) is that they do absolutely nothing at all whatsoever (and I'm labouring this point deliberately) to help or protect anyone that doesn't actually have a CC - the student members, the qualified but unemployed or the single pilot Ops guys.

However, the main point I wanted to bring up is that time and time again we see comments like:
So, if Balpa are recognised - by those that actually support them!!! - as being of limited or zero power, then what the chuff is the point of them; of paying ANYTHING at all to them?

There is only any value at all, if they can and will fight the corner, surely? Otherwise, as others have mentioned you're better off saving your 1% per month and putting into a sinking fund for your own protection, perhaps organising some kind of co-operative agreement with fellow pilots that you'll support each other if the fees exceed what you've squirrelled?

To mix a metaphore nicely, if Balpa are powerless, then isn't it kind of like buying a dog with no teeth AND having to bark yourself?

BALPA are not powerless, just not omnipotent as some would like.

For the last time you don’t pay 1%...its tax deductable therefore the taxman gives it back as a tax allowance. I can’t say it any clearer than that.

Trust me, BALPA find it hard enough to keep the workforce onside when things go pear shaped. Good luck to you all if you honestly believe your colleagues will stand by you with cash in hand, ready to help you out when the time comes.

Sorry that's a moot point. Tax deductible or not *you* pay for it..

As such, by reasonable deduction of that logic, BALPA should represent tax payers and not pilots.

so then, a collective a pilots can't be expected to act with mutual interest?

Both your points For BALPA are, in fact, Against BALPA.

in today's Daily Maul...

Sorry Bruce that is not correct. The complaint is that they pay 1%...they do not. The taxman will refund most of the fee. The fee belongs to the individual not the taxman or any other collection of individuals.

I understood the poster was referring to legal action being taken by an individual and running out of money for the lawyers fees. You are suggesting something else…perhaps an association or something. :ok:

Max Cont,
good usage of words, but not quite...
I do indeed mean that if an individual faced legal action, the cost of which exceeded that individuals own legal fund, then other colleagues may contribute some of their own fund, on the basis that they could expect to receive the same backing if they faced the same situation. Admittedly this is, apparently, about as likely as Henry the VIII being suddenly unveiled as a CIA hitman who actually shot JFK from the grassy knoll, but still - the complaint is that BALPA isn't EVEN trying to take the cases on...hence I was speculating that a co-operative (NOT an association... :ok:) may be a viable alternative.

Second point, is that I am very agnostic as to BALPA. However, no-one, ever answers the point that BALPA (if it is a true statement to say "BALPA = You, you = Balpa" as is often trotted out) is NOT actually the BRITISH airline pilots association...it's the pilots association of whatever airline it is representing, because it sure as hell doesn't appear to represent the whole and it absolutely, certainly, withou question does nothing at all for those that MOST need it's protection - those that HAVE no CC and have to represent themselves - the newbies, the out of work. Yet Balpa still happily take the money for this...

Dear Max,

Now you have completely lost credibility in my eyes: if you think that "tax-deductible" means "free" then we are really missing some very basic knowledge here.

Just before anybody gets an idea that BALPA membership is free, let me explain what tax-deductible is.

First, you have to pay 1% of your income to BALPA (or anybody else) with *real money*.

Then, *depending on your personal tax situation* your taxable income will be reduced by the amount that you have paid in tax-deductibles.

In other words, you don't pay tax over your entire income, but over your income minus the tax deductibles.

Depending on your personal situation, especially if you have a debt or other tax deductibles, this will not help you much. You would not pay that much tax anyway.

If you happen to make loads of money, then depending on the country you are in and in which tax-rate scale you are, you will pay less tax.

Example:

Lets say you earn 1000 EUR a month and pay 50% tax.

Without Balpa:
Salary 1000 EUR
Taxable income 1000 EUR
Tax 50% 500 EUR
Net 500 EUR

With Balpa:
Salary 1000 EUR
BALPA membership 10 EUR
Taxable income 990 EUR
Tax 50% 495.00 EUR
Net 495.00 EUR
You paid to BALPA: 5 EUR

Now if you happen to pay less tax, lets say 25%:

Without Balpa:
Salary 1000 EUR
Taxable income 1000 EUR
Tax 25% 250 EUR
Net 750 EUR

With Balpa:
Salary 1000 EUR
BALPA membership 10 EUR
Taxable income 990 EUR
Tax 25% 247.50 EUR
Net 742.50 EUR
You paid to BALPA: 7.50 EUR

Your membership therefore is ABSOLUTELY NOT FREE.

Skipping...I said it was tax deductable not free. I can see from the way I phrased the answer why you were confused.

Until we got the right to claw some of the fee back it was costing us all a genuine 1%. However, we at that time thought it was worth it so we all paid up. Now I get two thirds of my subscription fee back. It’s more than we used to get and a lot better than a poke in the eye with a blunt stick.

The reason for the large subscription fee is because the association is comparatively small. The cost of doing business is not reduced just because you only have a few thousand members. Try to take on the likes of BA legally and the costs will neuter or bankrupt an under funded association in a few days. The bill for the last spat with BA cost considerably more than most individuals can afford, even with a legal cover policy.

Incidentally, what attracted some people to this job was probably some of the remuneration and working conditions that some of the larger companies enjoyed. That was not bestowed upon us by a magnanimous management in some fairytale; it was fought for, tooth and nail by those BALPA members that went before.

If you as an individual don’t feel you have a long-term future in aviation the fee is probably not worth it. But speaking personally and having been in this game for longer than some pilots have been alive, the younger generation need to stand with us and take up the fight to protect careers and future earnings. (Not to mention a decent quality of life) If you don’t then we’re all stuffed and it saddens me…but then I can retire in 10 years and watch in morbid fascination.

Max,
I actually genuinely agree with a lot of what you have said in your previous post. I completely agree with your comments that all need to stand up (although "snowball" and "hell" are coming to mind for some reason....)

However, whilst you clearly think that defending of the conditions for those at the top end has been worthwhile, do you not feel that those AT the top end have utterly shirked the responsibility to look after those at the bottom end? Conditions have got worse and worse for new joiners, from first "pay for your own type rating with guaranteed job" to "pay for your type rating and we might give you a job" to contracts as opposed to perm, to pay to fly.

I think an AWFUL lot of the malaise that Balpa seems to inspire is driven by the fact that it ISN'T looking after the whole. It IS (from an external point of view at least) looking after the top.

I'm 35, qualified and highly unlikely to ever fly for a living now, but I watch aghast as the only hopes of entering the profession get ever more costly (last two years has seen any kind of scale recruitment costing the cadet in the region of £30k) and for what? a salary that's likely to be £25k?

I'm NOT slating Balpa, honestly I'm not....but from my perspective, they took my money as a student member and gave me NOTHING at all...No representation. The entry level has got ever worse and all the while senior (presumably in your case) Captains seem to be intent on holding on to the Ts&Cs that new entrants will never ever see. THAT is why you have malaise...
Do you feel in the face of that, Balpa have anything to offer to the new entrant, or indeed that the old faces have discharged their responsibilities adequately?

Clanger, you will get no argument from me regarding the lamentable lack of action on P2F and the other cancerous practices that are now endemic throughout our profession.

Are the senior guys at the top in any way responsible for some of what has happened? IMO they are. It was far too easy to let the company (and I mean any company) screw those that had not joined the ranks for some temporary reprieve to their T&C’s. That avoided the need to stand up and be counted. In their defence they had the most to lose and the abyss of industrial action takes on a new reality when you stare over the precipice for real. Especially when it’s for those you don’t know.

We do need to address this problem with some urgency now. The longer we leave it, the harder it will become.

I won’t pretend to even begin to have the solution…but I am certain that this will only be resolved by co-ordinated industry wide action. IMHO leaving won’t solve anything. To influence the outcome you have to be sat at the table…and for right now that means BALPA.

I do know the NEC is aware of the growing discontent over this. Perhaps when the e-mails become a flood from all the membership they will get serious.

Good luck with the job hunt Clanger, don’t give up…you have invested too much blood sweat and tears to walk away now.

As there has been some response to my post please let me reply -

To Paul Rice - I did not attempt to "front" BALPA, it was a generalisation about unions, no specific one in mind. Indeed it was a sustained campaign by TUC affiliated unions, of which BALPA is NOT one, which kind of blows your point 4 out of the water and decreases your credibility in my mind, that brought the full recognition to this equal pay legislation. Main unions were T&G (now Unite), Unison and USDAW, sorry if I've missed any. As an aside, the Act was passed in 1970 (under a Labour government) and came into force in 1975.

2. "Protection against Erosion of Terms and Conditions this is a BALPA failure not an achievement.". If you would like to give specific examples I am sure someone may come along and argue it. I was talking in general union terms, not specifics. I am personally quite happy with my union's defence of my conditions, perhaps that is because we have many stood in the wings ready to take over if need be therby keeping our elected officers sharp. There may be a lesson there.

3. P2F is quite legal and sod all any union can do about it. Sorry, that is reality, something that frequently eludes those with a bee in their bonnet. I wish it wasn't so too.

4. From the Guardian 24/01/10 "The joint general secretaries of Unite, Tony Woodley and Derek Simpson, have asked Barber to discuss the issue with Balpa, which is not affiliated to the TUC." Sorry for reality to intrude again.

5. There is another post on this thread which puts the legal mind succinctly along the lines of "I don't give a toss how much you have paid but your case is a crock of sh1t and any judge not beyond a coma would throw it out"

So far we are not doing well here are we?

To Bruce Wayne asking why have a dog and bark yourself. If you consider the dog to be such as the AA or RAC etc you would be right but it is the wrong analogy, you are not the dog but you ARE BALPA if a member, you don't join a football team to sit on the sidelines while they score goals, unions are no different.

If I have put the last part badly I apologise but hope you get my drift.

BALPA Consistently failing to Achieve
 

A few days ago I asked if anyone could suggest anything which could be listed as a key achievement of BALPA over the last 10 years.

So far we have had many responses but no one todate has highlighted anything at all which could be considered to be a BALPA achievment.

Summarising the response I note that

Whyeyeman commented that we pay a lot of money to BALPA and get nothing in return. Whyeyeman stated that

"BALPA are a backward looking talking shop where everyone moans about how bad things have got with absolutley no culture of getting anything done at the fundemental level"

Council Van continued this theme

"It appears that BALPA are happy to take your cash but if you require any help from them...I would personally put them right up there with our greedy friends in the banking industry"

Bluelearjetdriver stated that

"BALPA are systematically degrading conditions for future generations"

Max Con got it absolutely spot on when he stated that

"The BALPA stick is small and firly limp"

Captain ronweb asserts

"What I am certain of is that Jim McAuslan has shared more games of golf and 3 course lunches with the trail blazers of P2F than he has written letters telling them he is unhappy about this trend"

and Clanger 32 notes that

"My gripe with BALPA is that they do absolutley nothing at all. BALPA is like having a dog with no teeth and having to bark yourself"

Some years ago I apllied to join TGWU but was told that TGWU could not accept applications for membership from pilots because BALPA through the TUC had banned TGWU from admitting pilot members.

Given BALPA's failures to perform would anyone by intrested in pooling together and making a single large block application to join Unite or another Union that might have more capability and credability.

So Paul Rice states

Yet in earlier post states

I do wish he would make up his mind. TGWU, now Unite, is one of the largest affiliates to the TUC.

Unite? :}:yuk::}:yuk::}:yuk:
Excellent joke.
I'd suggest that, if dissatisfied with BALPA either form a new union (oh, isn't there one already?) or, together with a like minded consortium, put yourself up for election and change BALPA from within.
Unite? FFS! :):p:):p
Bas - ex AEU, MNAOA, TGWU - and that's the ones I can remember. Still a BALPA member. Don't know why. Must resign.

A spokesperson, of BALPA, recently said of the cabin air quality issue
"we are not a union, we are an association to further our members needs and salary", he went on to say that passengers are not anything to do with us.
Sorry that l can`t post the report, but l do believe that l`ve been accurate.

Well guys, this is a rather pointless discussion, because:

BALPA is run by rather clever guys who have more experience in politics/diplomacy than all the airline pilots in the world together.

Therefore they will never give you a direct answer when confronted with issues and will always keep a nice diplomatic tone and move the focus of the discussion elsewhere, just like max does. Those people are trained for that!

You can never win this.

Just make your conclusions and either shut up or cancel your membership.

When enough of us do that, they'll understand.

Paul Rice, Skipping Classes, Dreamshiner, etc

Max Cont and I (and many others...) work for an airline where were the active involvement of BALPA through our CC more than pays for itself. We know this because it manifests itself daily through our Ts&Cs, and monthly through our pay packets. That's a fact - but no doubt you are about to tell me that I am wrong.....

I read your embittered diatribes with some bemusement. You clearly have passion and energy, but you chose not to make a difference through the most effective vehicle you have at your disposal - BALPA. Tell me, which bit of BALPA-is-only-as-strong-as-its-members didn't you get? Or are you of that generation which trashes anything that doesn't provide them with instant gratification? If you think that ANY union/association is going to be effective without the need for perseverance, sacrifice, and hard graft, you are dwelling in La-La land.

Your calls for the "dissatisfied" to resign membership reminds me of Monty Python's Crack Suicide Squad - spectacularly pointless, and a cringing own-goal.

BALPA Failure
 

For the likes of Weary and Max Con im really genuinely pleased that your are getting benefit from Balpa membership. Really pleased that for you Balpa is working.

But your experiance in your company or your sector of the industry is the exception rather than the rule. Perhaps you working for British Airways whose pilots have always been the most protected darlings of Balpa.

Most people will be pleased to hear that Balpa has done something to improve your terms and conditions and monthly pay cheque but your amusement with others very strong disatisfaction with Balpa smacks of an "im all right jack" sort of attitude and sod the rest of you approach which is part of the division which Balpa has allowed to develop within the industry.

Your unfounded charge (Weary) that critism of Balpa implies that someone belongs to a generation that rejects something that does not give instant gratification is offensive nonsense ?

Which generation are you referring to and seek to insult ?

What evidence do you have that Balpa has been rejected because it did not give instant gratification ?

Do you have any evidence for this crass charge or is your sharp toungue displaying the lack of a sound mind ? Are you the sort of guy that does not need a steak knife but cuts your food with your tongue ? As a BALPA fan your position might be invulnerable afterall what you dont know cant hurt you and to that extent you seem invulnerable.

I can only speak for the two companies I have worked for and can say that the recognition and subsequent membership increase yielded a significant increase in our T&C's. I think a lot of us would like to see a more hardline approach on lots of issues but my experience is that we all tend to moan about BALPA and blame them rather than be pro active and hold the company to account! Our managers probably love it and know that every degredation in terms they try to impose will result in people blaming BALPA and moaning with the hope that membership falls and de unionising is completed! I do hope that someday we as pilots will stick together instead of always putting self first??

I am sad for those who feel let down by their representatives, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater and just give up, or we may as all join the ryanairisation that the airlines so desperately want to impose on us.

If you want a cure to all our woes Paul (Rice), take an overdose, it's the quickest way forward. I don't know why I respond really, is I've already pointed out.......don't feed the troll!!!!

As to the five achievements BALPA has achieved, may I suggest a read through other threads on this matter. As to date I have responded at least twice to the pro's of BALPA, but I see you are too lazy to search.

May I respond with a question (very MP'ish of me, I know).......what do you want from BALPA, an end to the erosion of our conditions (read P2F) and world peace?

It's ok....I realise you want nothing from BALPA apart from to knock it, I already appreciate you are the type of person that will not pay a penny to support your colleagues.

Maybe for one second, take off your bikini and look at the real world. Join a group of people that are willing to negotiate, yet at the same time, take time to appreciate the position that the company you/I work for is in.

I do not wany a UNITE style union, for the simple fact........they are not interested in me (the membership), nor are they interestsed in the company that their employees work for, I want a union for the here and now, and my money is on BALPA (from a selfish point of view, my membership is free, for reasons I have pointed out in previous posts)

I re-iterate....don't feed the troll

There always seems to be a BALPA attacking thread running on pprune just lately. BALPA do lots of stuff behind the scenes, but it is a pilot organisation and as such it does need pilots to volunteer their time and expertise, whether that be by unemployed pilots helping out in the office or experienced pilots helping out on one of the BALPA groups, such as the Medical group or Licencing and Training group. Unless you get involved with BALPA you wouldn't know just what does go on "behind the scenes". There are many fights being taken to Europe (and internationally) on UK pilots' behalf, but BALPA can only lobby to get things changed - they don't make the laws, and they can't tell airlines not to do things. They can certainly ensure they get involved with things - like when the MPL first was mooted, the suggestion was that new pilots would never actually see an aircraft until they got into the RHS of a jet, and then they wanted only a reduced hours PPL. BALPA's lobbying did help to increase the requirements, although they didn't manage to completely sink the idea because the CAA and the various companies intending to make alot of money from the idea were able to lobby and persuade the relevant people because they had not only the time but alot of money behind them. I guess if we all want our BALPA fees to double BALPA could do more.

BALPA also lobby the government about the ridiculous security issues, and hopefully these will continue to be eased - BALPA continues to put pressure on.

In the medical realm, BALPA again have been involved in UK and European legislation, ensuring that pilots are no longer grounded with every possible condition.

The NEC at BALPA have been working towards an agreement to ensure that no airline is disadvantaged by another airline's CC negotiating something for their own company's members.

There is much work going on behind the scenes - and I think that there are many ppruners who could be pro-active and volunteer their services to get even more done.

The working groups and the LOG board are all volunteers. There are full time employees at BALPA but most of those doing the work do it for free - so the more volunteers to help, the better.

BALPA could be stronger I guess, if all us pilots had the backbone to go on strike whenever any supposed "injustice" happens, but it won't happen. Pilots are a selfish bunch!!

Here is a scenario for you. You join a company and accept their pay and conditions. A few years later, you have the option to change your pension from final salary to money purchase. The company will give you a bung of money for this. Thinking of the £££s you decide to jump to the new pension. A few years later you realise that £££ in the short term doesn't equal £££s in the long term. So you complain to BALPA that your situation is entirely their fault. Justified?

Or, you join a company that doesn't have a seniority list. You are made redundant, quite legally. Should BALPA support you? Would you be willing to pay part of your subs to this person, if it wasn't you? Do you think they are going to win any legal battle?

I think we have to be realistic. Unless we as BALPA members are willing to be militant, we can't expect to have a militant union. Therefore the union can only get things done by negotiation, and negotiation doesn't always involve winning everything the union want.

Earlier in this thread, someone asked for BALPA's key achievements. From where I sit, they are as follows:

1. Seven additional pay increments for the rest of my career (worth approx. £8k per annum).
2. Virtually a final salary pension scheme with an agreement that will never be negotiated again.
3. A relocation package which worked when it had to.
4. A basing and rostering policy which has meant I have not had to physically move despite five base changes in ten years.
5. An excellent redundancy package (two year's salary), which I hope will work if it ever has to.
6. A respectable Loss of licence insurance scheme which I hope will work, if it has to.
7. Reasonable Death in Service benefits (don't tell the missus!). How that will work I'll never know.
8. A reasonable salary and allowances.
9. A voice (all be it a very little one) in the way our division is run.
10. Other minor niff-naff and trivia like medical insurance, medical renewals, licence renewals etc.

Now all of the above is very, very local. But it was negotiated by our CC with the help of our BALPA Rep. (Thank you Jenny). Do we still have things to negotiate? Yes, you bet and we won't stop. We won't get everything we ask for and every now again we'll get the sh1tty end of the stick. But we will eventually get something and we'll all share evenly in the rewards.

As for BALPA's behaviour nationally, yes I think they should be a bit more "unpleasant" but they also have to make sure they don't piss on their member's chips. Take P2F schemes for example. They could take the safety high road and suggest that certain named airlines might be dangerous to fly with as a result. Or that there are too many aircrew sleeping in cars in airport car parks, only to find that they have "dobbed in" one of their own. But again, that comes down to us telling the chaps in the office what we want of them.

So, as has been said many times before, BALPA isn't them, it's us.

PM

Gatbusdriver
 

Two thoughts with respect to you firstly why dont you keeping talking on the basis that you might one day say something inteligent. On the other hand why not open your mind and shut your mouth as both are empty anyway.

By not talking you can save your breath.... you will need it later to blow up your date, and talking of dates why not slip into something more comfortable like a coma.

Being a BALPA supporter you probably belong to that optimistic generation that plans there intinery on the basis of the Southern Region timetable and are so optimistic you can see the silver linning before you see the clouds.

Somewhere out theres a village has lost its idiot.

Sorry

Quite drunk yesterday evening, although I did appreciate the well thought out, reasoned response (did make me chuckle).

If you are willing to use the search function at the top of the page, you will find many previously stated pro's.

Kind regards

GBD

I kinda viewed this thread from on far in the past few days. As always its came down to a "You are BALPA .... " type debate vs. "What have they done ....".

I want a strong and unified pilot voice and therefore want a strong BALPA, its only because I want this and don't currently see that I am compelled to start a thread such as this.

Essentially I can take a few things from what has been written and am hopeful that everyone would at least accept that a great deal of the pilot community in the UK have following concerns (I don't share all of these but have listed some which I have read/heard of in the past few years):

• I think a lost of people accept that BALPA does things behind the scenes that can't be/isn't discussed openly.
  
• Address that some pilots feel the BA in BALPA stands for something other than what is official.
  
• BALPA HQ and an individual BALPA CC are perceived by many as different entities for all intents and purposes.
  
• I think some on here should recognise that a great deal of pilots don't live within an easy commute of central London and to suggest they get involved by volunteering isn't as easy or practical or financially possible.
  
• I think a number should recognise that even when their own CC is punching above its weight, some of the others are not achieving the same levels.
  
• If BALPA had a better or different way of disseminating information down to the rank and file then threads such as this may never start. At present their communication skills leave a lot to be desired.
  
• Yes BALPA don't have the power to halt some practices, however they have the distinction of generally being invited by the BBC, Reuters, C4, ITN and Sky to comment on certain issues related to our profession. Why tend to wait for the ash cloud of a BA strike to be asked for comment rather than approaching these news sources and outlining issues that we want addressed. This costs nothing and its well within their right/duty of care to do so.
  
• Why not release a press release outlining the practice of P2F in a measured and considered way, allowing the UK travelling public to pass judgement. Why in mid 2010 are we still waiting for any concrete stance from them on this matter.
  
• BALPA could easily outline what they can deal with and what they can't and if so, why not.
  
• Recognise there is a large and growing number of people in the UK who are unemployed, disenfranchised and not geographically placed so therefore can't step up to the plate as it is sometimes suggested they do.
  
• There are currently approximately 50 pilots formerly of Globespan now flying for Qatar, OK they've stepped up to B777's however they are bonded and while and some are no doubt happy with the change some would have preferred to have found alternative employment in the UK. The former UK government via the MoD awarded a foreign carrier an ACMI to fly to the Falklands and no caveat on hiring any of the former GSM crew was placed on them winning the contract. Why did BALPA not intervene, if they did tell us they did at least.
  
• I visited a BALPA jobs conference at LHR, I paid £70 for the day plus flights and accommodation. None of the traditional newbie hiring carriers showed up however Emirates did and stood up on the stage and delivered a lecture advising us how when we reached 3,000 hours we should forward a CV.
  
• This TCX thing is yet another nail in the coffin for me.
  
• Correct me if I am wrong, but I feel a lot of other unions in other countries fight for their nationals a lot more vigorously than we do.

I am not in the industry, I tried to get on the first rung of the ladder and when I eventually managed it I realised my life had moved on whilst the industry had gone down the swanny.

I work for an organisation where we are not allowed by law to strike. Any major spats are normally with the government of the day and yet we are protected by a strong Federation. Our T&C's have been attacked on a regular basis and yet we have always seen off the worst threats by using the public opinion of the day, the media, and a strong presence at conference and any rallies. Why hasn't Balpa and its pilot members managed this with the right to strike?

Pilots have been spoilt into a state of apathy and only have themselves to blame. There have been several posts where people have been told to change things from inside. Great sentiments but you have to rely on the membership to elect you to a position where you can make a change. That means ousting the incumbent who has probably got very comfortable in looking after his/her own interests. The other issue is that pilots rarely work with the same crew on a regular basis. Therefore each pilot only has himself to think about and doesn't really get the idea of being in a team over a long period of time. Stopping crews working together regularly might have prevented some incidents but it has also helped the airlines to divide and conquer it's pilot workforce!

I believe that it is wrong for two people doing the same job to be employed on vastly differing contracts. I believe it is wrong for people to have to pay for the chance (not right) to get some experience on a flight deck.

Balpa must do more to bring these issues to the forefront of people's minds rather than sitting idly by. Everyone that I talk to thinks all pilots earn £100k and can't believe the reality of pilot pay.

Why aren't Balpa at the flight training seminars where Oxford and CTC trap their next victims? They could help protect so many people outside the industry by warning them of the risks before they spend their money. I know some people will say that this is helping people who are not paying members of Balpa but if you cut off the flow of fresh blood to the cancer of P2F you will start protecting your T&C's as people will be less inclinded to enter into such folly.

The problem with that, Officer, is that the people employed in the flying training industry are also professional pilots, and they make up a considerable part of the membership. Cutting off the "fresh blood" would be cutting their own throats.

Also, unlike the police force, pilots are employed by companies that may operate in completely different ways, or are in competition with one another. Some may compete for passengers, and some may compete for contracts. Dedicated passenger longhaul, as opposed to, say, night freight, involves very different crewing practices with very different terms and conditions -and most of this is mandated by the regulations.
I think you can see that the notion of one BIG BALPA looking after everyone on the same terms and conditions is totally impractical. Nice thought though.

I had a thought...
 

...on the subject of BALPA and P2F schemes.

If BALPA membership is 1% of annual earnings, and presumably they don't exclude anyone from membership, then I suggest that all P2F pilots should be PAID by BALPA for their membership, 1% of whatever their P2F costs are. Since they are effectively 'earning' a negative sum, then their contribution should also be a negative amount, therefore paid to them by BALPA rather than the other way about.

No, of course I have no sympathy for the masses of self centred P2F pilots who are ruining things for everyone else in their efforts to jump the queue, but you can't entirely argue with the above logic, or it at least highlights just how absurd the whole concept of 'paying to work' is, and perhaps if BALPA had to fork out say £400 for every P2F member (based on typical £40K type rating plus experience package), then they might just start to take the whole issue a bit more seriously!

;)

Valid points however countered when you remember that by denouncing P2F doesn't mean that integrated schools will suddenly have nobody to train from 0-CPL/IR/ME, therefore the jobs of their FI's are not affected by Big BALPA making a stand. P2F would affect TRI's/training captains in companies who pursue and recruit these schemes and TRI's at a integrated school if they have the capacity.

All that many are asking for is that BALPA put a case forward to end this practice, not beyond their remit or abilities I'm sure.

I think what plod was getting at, is the big industry wide issues affecting all pilots such as pilot unemployment, immigration, training practices and unity are falling below an acceptable datum level that many pilots are unhappy with. However if you have been in an airline for a few years and have reached command you are pretty much cushioned from many of these issues by your seniority number and older style contract that tended to favour the reward of employees opposed to shareholders.

Be aware there is a growing number of pilots who's careers have came to a bump in the road due to the various factors that tend to affect our industry (terrorism, fuel price, global pandemics, ash clouds, mergers, administration and the recession). This group is by and large ignored and treated as a top-up revenue generator (you receive £800 per annum from an average captain, however 24 unemployed bring in the same amount).

I withdrew my financial support for BALPA when my patience was erroded, just one omission too many. I felt there was no forum or place for my voice to be heard and my perception of inactivity in prioritising major issues while active pursuing of minor, easy to win battles.

It just seems to me everything is just too cosy at the top of this organisation.

Starbbuck:

"No, of course I have no sympathy for the masses of self centered P2F pilots who are ruining things for everyone else in their efforts to jump the queue".

I have now retired after half a century of professional flying. I started off from a very humble background with very little financial support. I joined the ATC and went solo in a glider in 1957. I then went through a lot of selection and got a Flying Scholarship (PPL on Tiger Moths) in 1958.

I was lucky enough to be accepted into the Royal Air Force as a pilot in 1960 after yet again, considerable selection procedures, which was just as well as I did not have two brass farthings to rub together.

I then went on to have a wonderful and rewarding career in aviation which has just recently ended at the age of 69.

Aviation is all about being in the right place at the right time.

However, I am absolutely fascinated by your statement about "jumping the queue".

What queue is that? Is there a law about jumping your queue? Is this queue laid down anywhere?

Is this the same "queue" that I found myself in whilst doing my civilian instrument rating at Kidlington at my own considerable expense (having been a training captain on four-engined aeroplanes and a Master Green instrument rating holder for years)? If I had wanted to join BA (which I didn't at my age), I would have been behind their OATS cadet pilots on the seniority list.

Now, if I had paid my own way through Oxford and had joined BA, which "queue would I have jumped"?

When you are starting to get your toe into aviation, life is generally !!!!!. Stick with it and keep trying if you truly love aviation. If you are up to it and you are lucky then you will make it just like I did.

Good Luck.

Well BALPA have just lost another opportunity to raise awareness of the P2F farce. BBC news have reported that a think-tank, supported by MP David Willetts, has slammed big business for increasing their use of unpaid internships to help people get jobs. Their fear is that people from poorer backgrounds will miss out because they won't be able to afford to do unpaid work and will miss out on getting their share of good jobs.
What are the people at BALPA doing if they weren't aware of such reports. they could have made a spokesman available to put their side across and drop P2F into the debate.:confused:
Why is there such a lack of strategic planning and use of the media from BALPA headshed? I know there are only a few issues that can be fought at a national level but what's the point of ignoring the ones that you can fight?
Yet another dis-service to the student pilots paying their fees and those to come.
I guess the rich kids will continue to get into the industry purely on the basis that mummy and daddy can pay their way onto the flightdeck!:ugh: