Beak,

You are a hypocritical halfwit. You critisize me on this post for sticking up for CTC cadets, saying they have no choice in what they do, yet in the OAA thread you say;

"And let's not confuse the CTC deal with this disgrace of an Oxford deal - I am talking about the situation that Oxford trainees are choosing to be in."

Implying that OAA cadets have a choice, yet CTC don't. So which is it? Do CTC cadets have a choice or not? Then you go on to talk about spending mummy and daddies money. WTF? Wrong thread again mate. Get your facts right. CTC cadets had unsecured loans and did not need m&d's money. You are either confusing yourself, or just don't have a clue what you're talking about. FischerFlyer - you are also in the wrong forum.

As for your insults towards my name, you know NOTHING, let me say that again, NOTHING about me. I am not, have never been a CTC cadet, have never owned a pair of Ray Bans (I wish I could afford to look like a ponce) and have more than "a couple" of gold bars on my shoulders. Maybe instead, you should look towards your own name, and start polishing the beak of your fancy dress pilots hat.

Back to my post, you say it's meaningless drivel. Go on then, there are hundreds of cadets intrigued by your amazing foresight. What other choice do they have? ****Tumbleweed**** hmm thought so...

Maybe instead of spending all day on prune venting your anger at people who you feel are stealing your job perhaps you should be doing something worthwhile to update your CV with. Maybe easyJet would perhaps even take a small glance at you then. I just hope I never ever have to fly with someone with your attitude. It stinks.

This discussion is pointless, have it on your own.

Hi TheBeak,

Just wondering what your background is? Have you been a CTC cadet, or are you in any way associated with the scheme?

It might help us to understand where you are coming from...

Cheers
AD

Supply and demand. Pilots are being made redundant, airlines are going bust. So what sort of people are putting themselves through courses when the industry is in this state ????? (Common sense required), No wonder the airlines are taking advantage of these cadets!!!! Prospective pilots, for pity's sake wait until the market improves a little then start your training, maybe then no-one will have to accept these ludricous T & C's. Someone needs to be advising thes people before they stump up the cash !!!!! BALPA ?

Regards P.

Topslide,
Sorry but as a generalisation, that's horse!!!! of the highest order. Sure, there are several hundred no doubt whose sanity can rightly be questionned who DID start training during this downturn.

But what about the others who just happened to be IN training when the Maelstrom struck? People like me, who commenced training in probably the best ever environment for recruitment of low hour pilots and finished right in the thick of it? Bear in mind my former/current career is in the city with probably the one single organisation that you'd bet seeing this coming and WE didn't see it at the time I started training.

Don't get me wrong, I haven't stooped to join these schemes, but a catch all statement implying that all who HAVE signed up must have started their training in the current economic environment is plain daft.

Topslide

People in CTC's holdpool now, started training in Autumn 2007. CTC at that point had a 100% placement record, with eJ, BA, Jet2 and many others. They were growing quickly (maybe too quickly) to match requirements from those airlines, and offered something that opened up places to people who previously were unable to afford to train as a pilot. The money was unsecured. It was pretty much a guaranteed entry into the RHS of a jet. At that time there was no real evidence that there was going to be a recession.

ANY of you that say you would have turned this down are lying through your teeth. Get off your high horses and make a change instead of slagging these guys and girls off. Why would ANYONE work their arse off in some crappy job and complete their CPL over 5 or 6 years when this was an option.

The one thing I do agree with is that you would have to be a complete idiot to start training now or in the last year.

By getting what they deserve I hope you mean a FO job with some airline, whether it's TP or Jet and the oppurtunity to show people like you that actually, they make a dam good go at it. However, I think what you actually meant was bankruptcy, demoralisation and possible depression, suicide and in the future a crashed jet.

Hang on a minute, I wasn't refering to CTC trainees I was refering to the 20 Oxford trainees, one of whom was mentioned incorrectly by Old bloke on the CTC thread. My response was to him. I have no problem with CTC trainees, they are some of the only individuals who bother to get selected into this industry. What the Oxford people have done is not be selected into the industry however - they have bought their way in for the short term and have no doubt lowered Ts and Cs for the long term.

Well why didn't you say that in the first place instead of berating me for sticking up for CTC cadets. Engage brain before engaging mouth.

On your point, I agree.

However, I think even CTC cadets parents may have to stump up the £4k +VAT for the privilege of flying for eJ for 3 years, so TheOldMan could still have been referring to a CTC cadet.

Beak: CTC 'cadets' are made up of the "wings cadets" (who get selected) and the "iCP Cadets" (who just like OAA payout 70K for the course).

So whats the difference? OAA and CTC BOTH have people buying their way into flying....

These schemes are just taking advantage of these people caught out by the recession and they stink. The only winners are airline accountants !!!!! It's just selling the industry down the pan. Lawyers ,doctors just wouldn't put up with this, aren't pilots professionals as well ????!!!!!

The iCP cadets, when they finish their cpl/ir then have to pay for AQC. Once that is completed, if they are of sufficient standard they go into the CTC ATP cadet holdpool, not the CTC Wings cadet holdpool... At least as far as I'm aware, that is how it works.

You cannot make a living doing a job others are willing to pay to do.

What is so hard to understand?

Whaaaat ? That is THE most ridiculous assertion I've had the chance to come across in a long time.

Bignumber, do you think no one would like to be a trader ? Well, guess what : they make millions. And it doesn't take any more skills to be a trader than to be a pilot, I can assure you ! Do you think no one would like to be an EZ manager ? And guess what : they make loads of money. And it doesn't take any more skills to be an EZ manager than to be a pilots, I can assure you !

It takes zero skills but it does require a VERY, VERY thorough selection which starts with having the necessary academic qualifications which is generally nothing less that a first in Maths, Physics or something equally numerical. To be accepted into pilot training you could be a one toothed, dungaree wearing hick with no GCSEs or A Levels and have parents willing to put their £110000 Ex local authority flat in Hull up as collateral. There is less than no filtration required to become qualified. Sorry but there isn't. As vexed has said, traders make their companies money. Easy managers save their companies money. Pilots are like pieces of machinery, do as they are told and perform or they will be fixed or replaced.

TheBeak
What a complete load of utter tripe comes from you via the keyboard.
Have you attempted the 2 day APP selection at OAA or the Longer selection process from CTC.
I think not, or if you have it is my considered opinion that you probably did not make the grade.
At OAA 30% pass selection on the first attempt with a further 5% upon being invited back for a resit of a failed section.
What you ellude to is "Where's you cheque ? your welcome !!" this does happen in less reputable training establishments, and even now with places to fill on courses and less of the folding stuff available OAA and CTC, do not just take anyone.
Both establishments have reputations to keep and believe its unfair to put a student through a course that they are likely to fail, money does not rule, selection does.

Others
We are not talking Slavery here, just the airlines adjusting to market forces and reducing costs.
EZY has to cut cost to remain profitable and survive, so I ask what percentage of EZY pilots are on cadet schemes, and have they been used in preference to contracted Pilots ?

As for Strike votes, industrial action and Union clout, in this day and age ALL are a means of reducing jobs and cutting the the companies profits to the bone, so ultimately the employer will find it more effective to make redundancies.
Keeping people in work is the name of the game, and if that means pay to fly being used or flexicrew, so be it.
Stay employed, dont rock the boat and wait for an upturn.
Negotiate when in a position of strength, not now when there are hundreds out there waiting to fill you shoes.
There is far too much "I want it now" attitude, wait a while your turn will come.

Now that's funny small pen15, think what you like.

So as I said:

Contrary to popular belief you don't have to do it at CTC or Oxford.

For what it's worth I am bang on the money.

+1

Like it or not, pilots don't create value nor do they increase profit. I would have thought most people would understand by now that pilots are sadly just an unfortunate operating cost for anyone wishing to do business as an airline.

To quote V6g:-

"Like it or not, pilots don't create value nor do they increase profit"

Well, i guess requesting more direct routings, analysing Wx charts for the best winds, seeking out cheaper fuelling downroute, engaging with customers and focussing on their requirements during flight (biz-jet), negotiating cheaper handling and querying invoices and saving money - to name but a few items of the top of my head - well, i believe the above create a certain level of "value" albeit maybe small, and certainly will increase profit for the operation as a whole - or am i wrong and perhaps we should all just not be professionals and accept whatever we're given then V6g ??

thebeak

Your not even near, let alone bang on the money.
In fact your more hot air than a furnace.

I suggest that you spend less time on Pprune and find something more usefull to do.

-1 !!!!

Managers don't add any value. Some just crunch numbers which takes the wit of a baker to do it except they're very good at playing with Excel (big deal !!!). Others conduct PR which takes a lot of communication skills (hey, just like a professional purser !). As I previously mentionned on another post, I've been a manager myself in a big corporation and I know what it takes to be one. Some believe they're changing the company. They really think they're it while, in fact, they're only doing what they're told (just like TheBeak asserted regarding pilots. The only difference is they don't have the lives of people in their hands).

Pilots don't do what they're told. They apply procedures. But this job is not (just) about applying procedures, which BTW is not that simple. It's about decision-making, it's about discriminating, it's about hindsight, it's about thinking quickly, it's about keeping cool, it's about prioritizing, it's about responsibility and it's about minding passengers throughout the flight in terms of safety and commercial satisfaction. It's also about abiding by regulatory rules that could send you before a judge (which most manager would never have to face).

Put a lousy, "one toothed dungaree wearing hick" pilot in a cockpit. You'll understand what kind of value added a standard or good pilot brings to an airline. :ouch::ouch::eek: Those boys(girls) you're talking about probably won't pass anything if they're that dumb. The PPL will be the greatest and last achievement. The CPL will be a mountain. The IR will be outerspace. Line training will simply be unreachable and a vague concept.

To be accepted into pilot training you could be a one toothed, dungaree wearing hick with no GCSEs or A Levels and have parents willing to put their £110000 Ex local authority flat in Hull up as collateral.

I'm not familiar with this very specific training programme. But if that is true, our airlines, and Easyjet more specifically, are heading for terrible events in the future. NOT EVERYBODY CAN BE A PILOT, let alone a good pilot !

I get to meet chaps who should have never set foot on an airplane. They simply haven't got the right "hardware", the right IQ, the right wit to fly those airplanes safely. Sure, when all works fine, they can cope. But then you immediately see those who get overwhelmed as soon as the situation gets a bit nasty.

Managers who are ready to put lousy pilots in their airline's cockpits remove value from their airline and should be laid off.