Worth being a pilot at any price?
 

Hi all,

I had the dream to become a commercial pilot since I was in my teens. For various reason this didn't happen until I passed 40. I have gone a long way to finally gain my CPL/IR+ME+MCC+ATPL Frozen and also payed for a T/R on a regional turboprop. All this while working full time and also having a family! Having paid for it all myself I spent what is nowadays considered a normal "investment" to be given the chance of landing a position in the RHS of an airliner. I choose the turboprop rating because I judged it as the easier way to get a first job at an airline being a fresh CPL with only 400+ hours.

Indeed, I have been offered a chance at a European regional operator. I have completed the line training and is now offered a full time position as a F/O. I now started reconsidering if it's worth it or not. I have another profession in which I have been active for more than a decade and I make more money per month than a Captain with 5 years in the LHS within this company. I always had the dream to become a pilot but I'm starting to forget why. Flying regional routes is stressful and with 20 minutes turnaround between flights you don't even get the chance to leave your seat until after at least four legs. (Just imagine not even being able to visit the loo in that time.) The pay for the F/O is ridiculously low and not much more than the cabin crew makes. But the worst of it all is the many nights spent in hotel rooms away from your life partner and kids. On average, you spend 17 nights away from home per 4 weeks. That's the typical roster.

Forgive me for being blue-eyed, but I wasn't really aware that being a commercial pilot is all about not having a family life, not making a good salary, not being able to have a social life, not being able to be there at holidays and family events. The rosters are based on checking in at one of the company's remote airports and flying into the major airport. Not fully understanding all the details, but I understand that Subpart Q is a limiting factor if crew would be allowed more often to spend the night at the major airport (which happens to be close to where I live).

The thing is I am now feeling kind of disillusioned of this job. I mean, the job in itself is rewarding, fun and exciting, but the difficulties in having a balanced existence which allows for at least some minimum level of family and social life really make me think twice if I should continue following this road or not. I kindly asked the company about the possibilities to work part time but that was not of any interest to them.

I would appreciate any thoughts on this. What do you guys think? How do you value a flying job against the things I mentioned?

Thanks and have a good day! :

Only you can answer your own question, but the old phrase 'the grass is always greener on the ther side' is so true.

Commercial flying is a job, and like all jobs has good points and bad points. Unfortunately it is human nature to ignore the bad stuff and concentrate on the good. We forget pain and remember pleasure.

Your post could probably have been written by many pilots who made it to the commercial airline sector. Personally I think your post should be mandatory reading for all wannabees, but then would they listen.

Good luck whichever decision you make, but at least having made it to the RHS you now know what it is REALLY like and will not spend your life wondering....' ah but what if??'

I'd suggest stay in your current profession, and get an instructor rating and work part-time at weekends in a flying club.

As you point out, today is a really bad time to be a commercial pilot in Europe. I don't see things getting any better in the short or medium term, as de-regulation and constant cost-cutting has made the industry so cut-throat and unpleasant to work in. Even when the economic recovery comes, it'll probably just get yet more stressful with no better conditions but fewer slots and longer delays.

guntop

Personally I wouldn't do what CirrusF says and go back to your old profession.

What I would do is stick it out, gain lots of valuable experience (which you will in a TP) and then when the good times arrive you'll be in a better position to move on.
Of course only you know your own situation, if you cannot afford to stay in the RHS for a couple of years then I would reconsider.
In this game you have to speculate to accumulate, if you turn this down you'll regret it in a year or two when an opportunity arrives to move on. In the meantime you have to do what it takes and make a couple of sacrifices to get there.

That's my take on it.

CC

p.s. yes, airline flying is rather tedious at times.

In hindsight did you want to be a pilot, or an airline pilot?

Maybe you aren't at the right airline for you. Problem is, there isn't much choice at the moment. I still love the job and I wouldn't want to do anything else. Glass is half full for me. Yes these are tough times and working conditions vary immensely. I'd stick it out for now if I were you until things pick up and you have more options with other airlines. Flying is very much about being current and you may find it hard to get back again if you stop which would be a shame after all of the effort (and expense!) you have put into it.

But if your heart is not in it that's a different matter ... :rolleyes:

Good luck

B&B

guntop88, your questions and worries should be the first things that are tod to apiring commercial pilots before beginning their training. Make them think twice - twice! There would be a lot less grief for those who don`t know what they`re getting themselves into. There would also be a lot fewer commercial pilots, and therefore better chances for those who choose to continue this course in getting a job- And getting one without buying one! T&Cs would also be a lot better. Hindsight? You bet!:ok:

I would pack it in and go back to your old job. At your stage you should be able to see past the BS aspects of the job and still be looking at it through rose tinted spectacles. You're not. If you feel like this after a few months you will absolutely loathe it after 3 years. And you will sit in your seat all day moaning about it which will drag everyone else down with you. FO's who are not happy with their lot when they have only been doing the job for ten minutes is something I see frequently. And they are the cause of some of the worst days out imaginable. Go back to your old job, fly for fun and let someone who would appreciate the job have a crack at it.

I once trained with a computer technician/engineer who was earning good money - £100,000+, BMW M3 etc.

He gave the job up for a F/O position with a turboprop operator. We all told him he was 'mad' and to go back to his old job and fly/buy a twin if he was so keen on flying.

After hearing our comments and gaining an insight into life as an airline pilot he decided to go back to his old job before he even completed the groundschool element of his conversion course.

Perhaps the best decision he made?

KR

FOK

FlyingOfficerkite

Your computer mate will never know what is like to Captain an airliner with 200 odd people back there, flying autolands in thick fog, beautiful sunsets and sunrises, the actual thrill of flying people who put their lifes in your hands....no computer job can provide me with that satisfaction!! That is only my take on it, of course

BTW I am lucky to be on £100k package LHS with an orange operator but I did start 11 years ago on a lot less than that...


Paolo

Paulo

Yes I agree - which is why the job appeals to so many.

I have several mates who are now Captains with an orange operator and have realised the ambition they could only have dreamed of 15 years ago as AFIs.

That said, they are still (mostly) single with no children. Whilst family life is not for everyone, I sometimes wonder when they look back on their lives from the comfort of their expensive homes or whilst driving their luxury cars, whether they will consider all those sunrises and sunsets were worth it?

Maybe they will, maybe they wont but I have met many a sad old pilot in his sixties with nothing more than memories and a pet cat for company at Christmas!

KR

FOK

Flying is a dream job for many, which is why the money is now as crap as it is and we are treat like secon rate citizens.

Im just getting old and cynical, :8 if I could earn what I earn now and go back to instructing or flying for fun I would do it tomorrow. You can keep your big jets and night flights to dodgy airports.

Stick with the job you have now and fly for fun.

I think we within the flying community sometimes think we are the only people experiencing a decrease in T&Cs. I'm sure there are a great deal of people out there in the wider world who would wish that it were so.

As I understand it, people in all walks of life are losing their jobs, or at the very least, having to accept reduced remuneration/benefits etc; these bitter pills are often hard to swallow because the job that is being devalued was not very enjoyable in the first place, hence the number of people wishing to enter this profession.

At the end of the day, (whilst watching the sunset), those of us fortunate to be sat in front of paying cargo, self loading or not, can still enjoy the benefits this job brings, perhaps not everyday, but nevertheless, more often than many who don't get such a view out of their office window.

That said, the current devaluation of the worth of aircrew is still damnably unacceptable!

A friend of mine is a chartered surveyor working in the construction industry.

Last year he could command £300 -£350 per day freelance. This year it's down to £250 - £300 per day. Quite a drop in average earnings. Imagine pilots being asked to take a similar 10% - 15% cut in pay from last year?!

As RB311 said, other industries are suffering as well - and many people have no job at all.

I can't help but think the BA strike action will end in tears, one way or another. BA can't 'magic' pax from nowhere, nor can they control external costs. It doesn't matter how prestigeous the company might be, economics is economics and the mighty can fall. Just look at the banking sector, Woolworths and the like - no matter whose fault - there are going to be many unhappy Christmases this year.

KR

FOK

guntop88,

I think training later in life i.e. 30's / 40's and having experienced another career before entering aviation gives you a direct comparison with a previous career you can very quickly see that a lot of the time the lifestyle is frankly not very good at times for a pilot.

Add to that a wife and children who are used to you being there and suddenly you are away, you can't commit to family or social occasions because your roster doesn't go that far ahead or your bid for holiday comes back in a different month to the one that you asked for!! Makes for an unhappy and frustrating time no matter how good the sunset is!!

I shared a lot of the experience's you mention and I was on jet for a loco. I'd be under no illusion that even when things pick up and you move to a bigger ship, I don't think all that much would change to be honest; when I flew it was the very same things that frustrated everybody, tiredness, lack of control over your life for social occasions and holidays, crap hours and rostering etc....I do think a fixed roster would be a huge plus with a family.

I am back doing what I used to do and family life is much more settled again. Hand on heart I miss the flying at times but as others have posted you can always fly for fun.

Good luck with what you decide.

Don't do it.

Go be a doctor, fly in your spare time. I would never get into this again, in fact I'm trying to get out. The actual job is incredibly mundane, sitting around starting at lcd displays and combined witth the job security, social aspects and the meager chance of gettting a career started in the first place mean don't go there. It was, for me, a pyrrhic victory "making it" in the airline industry.

I love all these quotes...Go and be a doctor! Look, if you want to be a pilot, you want to be a pilot! Nothing else compares!!

If someone had said to me in the 1990's when I trained "Listen, the industry is going to change, become a doctor instead" I would have said "but I will not get to fly that willo 3B (as it was then) and then fly through the autopilot down to minimums" as I wanted to do. All those hours listening to the airband radio, wishing I was up there instead of being down here in the back garden of my parents house...

I have no interest in becoming a doc, lawyer, accountant. Pilot or nothing. For me, anyway. And for me, I am not interested in flying light a/c. I did that to get to flying jets, to be doing what I dreamed of. That includes military hardware too. Never been interested in shooting at people and flying through valleys at 100 feet. I'd probably throw up!

Everyone is different, I guess some people get into flying because it is percieved as a job comparable to doc,law,accountant etc.

Some, like me get into it because it is what they dreamed of.

Paolo

Dear Guntop88

I am absolutely awed; you have managed to hold full time job, finance your flight training up to type rating without going into debt and support your family at the same time. You have my sincere admiration, sir.

Now I wouldn't advise to give up the dream of becoming an airline pilot but I would certainly not recommend getting a full-time job with the airline that pays very low wages to its flightcrew and then expects them to sleep out of home for appalling 17 days per month. Subpart Q by itself does not penalize the airlines that have bases on the large airports, rather it seems to me that here's exploit of a loophole in it: minimum rest period out of base is 2 hrs shorter than in it. Therefore by nominating what is de facto stopover as a base you can reduce minimum rest at real base and increase crew and aeroplane utilization. If my guess is correct, then most of your night layovers would be at the same big airport.

If your salary got you safely to TR, then I'm certain that it will keep you current (minus TR, of course, however, should another opportunity arise on the same type within next 5 years, you won't need to go through full TR, thereby you'll be cheaper to train than the competition). Wait till the better opportunity arrives. If it never comes (unlikely yet possible), at least you'll have the pleasure of flying when you want and where you want.

Dear RB311

Conventional wisdom has that when everyone gets paycut, prices go down. Haven't seen any of that lately. Sorry if I misunderstood fundamentals of free-market economy, I was first exposed to it when I was in high school so I must have missed some lessons.

To switch to parochial view: nominal average pay increase at my airline in last ten years was 36.7% while flightcrew pay increase over the same period was 11%. Even average nominal rise was below govt's official estimate on living cost rise.

Dear Paolo

If you are airline pilot, I'd like to thank you for illustrating a couple of things that went wrong with our industry lately.

When I turned up for pilot selection, 15 years ago, there were psychologists and psychiatrists on the prowl, weeding out thrill-seekers. Ideal pilot will accept the responsibility of flying his passengers to 15 meters height at 140 kt into 200m visibility but will not get its kicks out of it. As a pilot you have to be aware of danger, know how to handle it, tolerate it, not seek it out. Oh yes, I did enjoy the 75m RVR autolands... once we got safely down to taxy speed.

Pilot at any cost is good strategy for someone who doesn't have to rely on his salary to make a living. There are a few of us up front who have to. Yep, it's glorious sunshine up above the nimbostratus, but it won't pay my kids' kindergarten.

If you have a stake in a Flight School and use PPRuNe for unconventional marketing or are a simple troll, then congratulations on well written posts.

A fantastic post Paolo, you know what you want and i bet you get it too.

I am also thinking of leaving a stable career with excellent wage and working conditions, i even have a 6 hour a week gym component built into my contract lol. Although everytime i see an A320 or even a Dash - 8 leaving the airport i think i'm not going to die knowing i didn't give it my best shot.

With the miss' keen for some adventure i'm off to GA next year. Dreaming or not realising reality, i don't care. I'm not getting to 50 and its all to late.

Thank you all for good comments!

I will probably try to stay in there for a while in order to stay current and active. In the best of worlds I would want to fly part-time (50-50) and share my time between my two jobs, but that seems to be out of the question for most employers. They want to own you fully! Why are they so inflexible? It would surely make for a happier pilots work force in many cases.

Indeed, I like flying (would not go so far as to say that I love flying). In my earlier years, I too had the vision of being a well paid, highly admired and respected professional when I considered the pilots profession. Of those I think it is only the latter that still holds true. As one said here, pilots nowadays seem to be treated as commodities and can be replaced any day. I'm a realist and so don't fool myself. It's fairly obvious that employers don't have to bother about pilots working conditions too much since there is a never ending queue of prospective buyers (yes, buyers!) for the "luxury" of working as a pilot. It's all true because of the law of demand and supply. Nothing to wonder about.

I'm used to having a creative work where I solve problems daily whereas flying is a non-creative job where you perform an operational task very much controlled by procedures and regulations. Maybe I already answered my own question: I don't love flying but I like flying and I want to fly, always did, just not at any price!

Here's my own list of pros and cons based on my experience so far:

Pros:
* the satisfaction of a work well done by the end of the day
* you can forget all about work when you check out for the day (i.e. don't have to take work home)
* you work less hours than in an ordinary office job (many off-duty hours spent in hotel rooms though)
* it beats sitting in front of a computer all day
* you get to see the sun a lot
* you have very nice colleagues and workmates

Cons:
* too many nights away from home!!! This is the worst part!
* lousy pay, really, at least first five years or so!
* tedious and repetitive at times (could be good too depending on your mood of the day)
* stressful when you're at work (true of course for most other jobs too)

I like being a pilot, but I'm looking for the good balance between work and private life. Being an instructor at a local flying school is not really what I'm looking for. It was always being an airline pilot flying paying passengers. Perhaps a job with a bizjet operator or charter/taxi operator could be the answer. Flying night cargo/mail would also be ok. I'm pretty open to whatever opportunities that I could find as long as it is real commercial flying. I'll definitely try to hang in there! It's just a pitty if the typerating I payed for turns out to be a mistake...

Take care out there! :-D

guntop88

I still love flying, But just not flying for a living.

After 25 years as a pilot, I would give it up in a heartbeat, if I could get a reasonable job earning a reasonable salary. The problem is when you spend so many years getting the required qualifications and ratings (which you must pay for yourself now with 95% of the jobs available) Its hard to give it up.
I want to give it up. Ive had enough of longhaul flights throughout the night. Spending most of the month away from the family, in increasingly poorer accomodation.
It may be an OK job for young singles, not for those trying to raise a family and pay off a mortgage.
Although you may look at some jet captains salaries as reasonable, it takes many years to get there. MANY other jobs will earn you that or more. Even tradesman working on big projects can earn that sort of money now, without working nights. (not saying anyone should enjoy being a tradesman more than flying) but I think it just brings the ''''airline pilot salaries''' into perspective nowadays. Captains salaries on the big jets are a very average salary now. I would have expected to be making over 100000GBP a year, 20 years ago, not now with inflation over the last 20-30 years. It can take so long to get to a reasonable salary (10-20 years) that when you get there, its actually fairly average money to earn for your age, experience. and inflation.

The turboprop rating is just the first of many you are likely to have to pay for. Airline owners and managers are a greedy bunch of penny pinchers. You will be paid as little as they can get away with to fill their seats, after you pay for your own type rating.

If you have a good, reasonable paid career away from commercial flying, TAKE IT NOW. If you are dispondant about the industry now, you will not last until retirement.

Flying is great, just not airline flying anymore.
Earn good money and buy a small plane, maybe a share in a plane syndicate. Or find some other type of casual flying to get your fix. Then you continue to enjoy it.

I wish I was in your position. Im trying to figure out what career change I could do now, WITHOUT starting at the bottom on a low salary (for my age), (but most likely better than most fo jobs).

The fact you posted on pprune asking this, tells me you already know the answer.
The novelty of being a jet Captain wore off many years ago for me.