Terms and conditions will always go down in aviation, it has never ever improved and it never will. Even for passengers easyjet is getting worse and worse.


But you are right, easyjet is not a flag company, it's a european low cost, like Ryanair. Low cost means that costs must be LOW.

After all monkeys can fly an A320, there is no need of experienced crew anymore. That's the way it is.

"After all monkeys can fly an A320, there is no need of experienced crew anymore. That's the way it is."

I can't make up my mind if you are a 737 pilot or Micro soft hero. What an Ar*e. Ask some American people who recently only just got their feet wet leaving their floating aircraft how they feel about your statement. Although a monkey or you in the front? They might choose the monkey.

I have reproduced wind check's latest post here.

At least we all now know that any further posts from this Microsoft 'pilot' can be treated with the contempt they deserve.

Total loss of any credibility prize goes to wind check. What a prat!

jackitin, at least in america you will hardly find a job on an a320 with less than 3000 hours, but nevertheless, this aircraft is so easy (auto trim, auto thrust, auto everything) that even a 150 hours cadet can operate it more or less safely, and that's what Ryanair and (now) easyjet have understood: let's take cheap chaps to do this easy job.

Whilst not in agreement with the monkey comment, the Airbus is certainly not a difficult aircraft to fly, there are plenty flying around the world these days crewed by individuals who would not have had the aviating aptitude/capacity to operate anything a bit more steam driven.
Easyjet have got cheap crews to operate a relatively simple aircraft (A319).
Please don't try and convince me that any Airbus is particularly complex.

Doh we're getting into a whole different discussion here. I fly a steam driven turbo prop and I don't mind admitting that, although of course I'd be up for the challenge, from what I've heard about the airbus it does not sound at all simple. Of course with practice everything becomes easy, but the more practice the merrier. It's when a few failures occur that the men from boys no doubt become distinct. I think what IS all too easy is to sit here in front of a keyboard and say 'I could do that, it'd be no problem.'.

Yes it doesn't seem complex until something goes wrong.

Wind check.
Can you tell me how many of these "cheap chaps doing this easy job" are on ryanair's new a320 fleet?

it's all the same with ryanair and the b738, and believe me or not, that's the way it is. Ask the trainers at ryanair, easyjet, ctc what they think about it... I don't think they are scared of signing off hundreds of 150 total hours cheap cadets. And it doesn't make any problem neither for the insurance to let those inexperienced guys.
Remember, in 99.9999999% of the whole flight the autopilot and computers do much better than you. ;)

Until there is a prang and the media get wind of the whole thing

"After all monkeys can fly an A320"

You can send that to the families of the Air France A330 pilots that went down over the Atlantic...

Go into direct law and beyond and it can get quite complicated, and yes you lose the autotrim for all you REAL pilots out there

come on guys, i didn't want to pis.s you off but that's how is our profession. Being a commercial pilot is not a glamorous job anymore. Our passenger buy a cheap ticket and don't give a s.hit of our job, they don't listen to the pilot's PA, and they feel like in a fast bus from A to B, and what they want is to arrive on time and get out of the airport as soon as possible. Airbus and Boeing are very modern airplanes, and they are easy to be operated by a low hour cadet.
Are cadets more dangerous than "ten thousand hours pilots" ? I don't think so. Of course there are in our profesion what we can call bad pilots, but on the other hand good pilots don't exist. Lots of ex pilots of jumbo, concorde, tornado, mirage, f16, or whatever crashed, and lots of cadets never crash :ooh:
Please don't get me wrong, I am not happy to see the profession going down and down every year, but we have to be realistic for god sake. Airlines companies need to cut the cost, and modern airplanes with cheap monkey pilots is the good compromise of a perfect low cost/ high safety ratio..

Ryanair was yesterday what all the companies will be tomorrow. Easyjet is just taking the same way.

whats this 'we' business fool.flying a microsoft airplane doesnt make you a pilot.may i suggest a spell and reality check.

thats the problem with these forums you do get the occasional nutter

please go and play with the traffic now

NB: I am a professional pilot in activity. Please remain polite and don't post anything if you have nothing else to say :bored:

well how about not posting on a pilot forum explaining how pilots could be replaced by monkeys if being polite concerns you.

what exactly does 'im a professional pilot in activity' mean?your clearly not a pilot having read your previous posts.maybe you should replace 'activity' with 'my imagination'

p.s. renting a pilots uniform from a fancy dress shop and sitting in front of microsoft flight sim does not mean your a pilot.

adios:rolleyes:

You are correct that modern jets are easier to operate than those of previous decades windcheck.

Just to clarify, how many hours do you have on the A320 and 737?

As far as the thread topic goes, NSF has covered it. For the foreseeable future only low hour new guys from CTC will be joining. And in terms of the command list I'm around 250th on the waiting list..... 3-5 years to command from date of joining the list is the estimate, but it is all guesswork. Simply put I can't see ezy hiring on terms and conditions that would be attractive to anyone other than a desperate low hour cadet for years to come.

just to be clear thats hours on the airplane not ms flight sim windcheck

its incredible how short sighted airlines can be.while ezy management hold all the aces right now its is only a matter of time till the market takes off again and aggresive expansion starts.

the command list of 250 will quickly be eaten away.its about 40 aircraft i guess.then what happens, ezy end up with a shortage of experience..

back to square one again where guys with time on turbo props and other jets are back in demand

i see ryr are taking alot of aircraft orders this year, aer lingus are on the ropes again, burning money at an alarming rate.the wheel will turn and there will be a shortage, by which time the current management will have buggered off, new ceo comes in and promises this must never happen again.people become one of the pillars once more and we get tastier sandwiches:ok:

only a matter of time

To replace 'older' aircraft though, not to expand the fleet, not by much at least.

Don't shoot the messenger...
 

Wind check, don't worry too much about the criticism. A lot of these guys probably got their command during the last few years, after spending countless hours in front of a mirror wearing 4 stripes and practicing PA's ("this is your captain speaking..."), so anyone that threatens to pop their bubble is aggressively attacked.

I completely agree with you, flying is not rocket science, so you're right to logically assume that this will translate through to lower T&C's. Just look at the past and you will see the future... :sad:

Unfortunately a lot of these "professional" pilots seem to have the situational awareness of a potato when it comes to their own T&C's.

I've been hammering on this point for years, but it seems people still have their heads firmly stuck in the sand. :zzz:

Guys and girls, cut the point scoring and get back on topic. The route to flying an Airbus is a difficult one unless you are cash rich little p.... . Therefore people have taken offence to having the career that they have struggled, fought and worked hard to have belittled. Understandably. I don't think it was meant like that by wind check though so go easy - I am guessing he/she isn't English and has possibly used colloquialisms in the the wrong context.

Back on to what is a quite interesting thead with valued inputs......

Have you been spying on me?:eek:

Doug change the record - you're boring. You don't like Locos' and younger pilots flying jets before having clocked up 10,000 hours flying an ATP pisses you off. We get it.

It's not so much that I don't like low-cost (although I think low-cost is the cancer of aviation and it's spreading quickly) it's the fact that all T&C's in the entire aviation industry are under threat. The difference between low-cost airlines and more established airlines is that the pilots in traditional airlines actually fight back and (if lucky) can maintain a status quo!

Just like good CRM, situational awareness (where you came from, where you are, and where you're going) is something that is useful in all aspects of life, not just flying!

p.s. I never stated that I have a problem with any young bloke's ability to fly jets. Actually, it proves wind check's and my own point: anyone can so it! ;) But if you decide sacrifice all T&C's in order to fly those fancy jets, then don't be surprised that sooner or later you'll be flying for peanuts, which is exactly what's happening now.

Situational awareness is not only about looking at your current situation/paycheck, it also involves looking into the future...

An excellent comment, and in one sense I agree, however my opinons are at odds with each other (I must be a fool!). I think that were it not for the Locos post 9/11 then the industry from a recruitment perspective, would have taken far longer to recover. There would have been no movement in the currency that is new recruits. Any Gordon Brown ecomomist will tell you that if there is no movement in your currency then there is recession (and probably then be off to the pub having borrowed even more money to move the currency which stopped moving due to money borrowed and lent in the first place, but that's another story). In a sense, for certain of those seeking recruitment, post 9/ll without Easy and Ryanair, there would have been none. It looks to me like that's the way it is now, today.

Now to the cancer: it is true, they are eroding terms and conditions because they can; market forces allow them. However the cancer goes further than this. They only recruit desperate newly qualifieds leaving experienced pilots wanting to climb the old traditional ladder finding that there are lots of rungs missing, and they have no rope. Before I worry about terms and conditions in a better job not being as good as they used to be I need that better job. Here and now my terms and conditions are far worse than at the Locos. So getting a job with them, would that be cancer or cure? I'm confused.

I would however argue strongly that with some solid experience behind me, and a few steam driven failures to handle in that time, I am far better placed to be the monkey to which Wind Check refers so glibly.


Oh yes, I think you did.

Yes the passengers do. However you are wrong, they take it for granted you are not a monkey and you will keep them safe. Would you be able to do that yourself?

wind check - you started on here producing incorrect statements about the easyJet cadet contract currently on offer. Now you are making outlandish and woefully ignorant statements about flying the Airbus that are frankly embarassing. I fully accept that flying the A320 on MS Flt Sim is not too tricky but once you get out and about on a real aircraft of any kind, be it a Boeing or Airbus, you will just have to accept that some skill is required. You are coming across like a fresh air thief - you may want to reflect on your comments and think of a better way of engaging your readers.

Monarch Man - no one would dream of trying tell you that flying an A319 is difficult as they would just be wasting their breath. Nor will they tell you it is best to land with 3 greens as I am sure you know better.

Returning to the issue of easyJet recruitment - no one is justifying temporary commands, least of all BALPA. That is a reality they are having to deal with and fight as best they can. This is a serious fight and the only hope is BALPA fighting on our behalf.

Alright, what I wrote was true, cadets are offered a 14 days a month winter contract and salary is 2500 GBPs a month (or 210 GBP a day plus flight pay). Lots of those cadets were offered this contract yesterday to bases like Milano, Lyon and Belfast. You'd better go and ask around yourself mister i-know-everything instead of making yourself an obvious idiot.
Secondly, please be less stupid than your friends here, I am not a microsft flight sim pilot, havent touch this thing (very realistic though) for 10 years now. I used to fly the A320 for a south european low cost airline, and I know what I am talking about.


Doug wrote:

You are absolutely right, this is the perfect picture of what we find here. Those guys who still try to take their best voice when they do their PA that none of their passengers would listen. And those kind of mates will walk in the terminal with their yellow stripes (as yellow as their teeth) and nobody will dream on them. When the weather is lovely, they will also fly the FD bars from ground to FL100, on a straight line! and they'll disconnect everything (appart from the autotrim ;)), and they will feel like real B707 pilots like the the 1960's :zzz: :zzz:


Michael O'leary is not my favourite one, but I am realistic and I must admit that he has been anticipating with a genuine success what aviation is and he knows how it will be. Modern aircraft, easy to operate, with cheap cadets and there you go! He has been the first to charge for checkin luggage, then easyjet was part of the airline who followed that brillant idea, and today, Iberia, Air France-KLM, and British Airways are about to do it as well! something interesting coming up in the years to come. Yes the low cost is an aviation Cancer and goes on very quickly.
Look at how is Ryanair how are Ryanair pilots now, and you will have an idea of the aviation of tomorrow in all airline companies.
When MOL say that pilots are mokeys seated on a bus with wings, paid to much for doing nothing, he is quite right, although It pisses me off.

when your in a hole windcheck stop digging

why is the mark of a good pilot for you someone who can fly with the flight directors off.just curious,what the hell has autotrim got to do with anything!?

firstly in my humble opinion the mark of a pilot is more than just the ability to fly raw data approaches.so why exactly does this matter so much to you? or define what makes one a pilot?i always thought it was down to the ability to manage the given situation, communicate effectively, prioritise, delegate, technical understanding the list just goes on and on.yes the ability to fly raw data is an element,but its far from the only requirement of what defines a pilot.these are all the elements you would appreciate as significant in defining a good pilot if you had any experience as a pilot.its what leads me to believe your a ms flt sim hero.all the things 'monkeys' cant do.:hmm:

as for these people who you seem to believe enjoy posing,i dont know any of them.so where do you find all these people.most people i know seem to want to do the job to the best of their ability and then forget about it.
like i said you keep making yourself look more and more ridiculous with wild statements,so try and stop digging.

its quite possibly a language thing but your not creating a good image of yourself.you antagonise people with silly statements.if you were a 320 pilot then maybe have some respect for you industry/career.

can i ask you, are you currently employed or do you express your view on the value of a pilot at interviews?

ps whats a 'mokey', is that a monkey who cant fly raw data approaches

The easier the aircraft is to fly the better - leaves more capacity for looking out for cumulus granitus and other aircraft :} Monkeys can also process numerical data faster than most humans given adequate training, so what's your point? Can a monkey fly the aircraft safely? Not in my opinion, Wind Check. Your point is somewhat irrelevant to the reality of commercial flying.

Sorry, I'm compounding the thread creep.

AD

OK, Mister "Goodpilot" (shall I call you like that? :}), may I send you back to post number #52 where I did write indeed that to me "good Pilots" do not exist. To begin with you'd better try to be humble.
Oooooh you do raw data, what a man! do you wear raybans and are you one of those with big oldfashionned pilot suitcases with Airbus or Boeing stickers on it? Why would company hire a hero like yourself doing raw data or whatever thing when the aircraft flies better by itself, operated by a cheap cadet. If you want to fly, you'd better go to the flying club, do accrobatics, try to join the red bull air team, but please don't tell me you fly better than an airbus autopilot.
Think what you want, I have had enough with you, I have a significant experience on the A320, I reckon that there were some good points on that aircraft, but it's not because I used to be an A320 pilot (still current on it by the way) that I will say that this is a plane for top gun pilots and no 150 houred cadet could fly it, this is just untrue!! Bear in mind that in aviation honnesty is the main asset to keep a safe CRM ;)
But maybe you just don't want to open your eyes and see the reality in fornt of you, that's your problem, not mine.

bye

i never claimed i fly better than an autopilot,and i never said i fly raw data approaches.what you did say was that monkeys can do what pilots do.am i wrong so far?

you continually referred to the ability to fly raw data, i'm merely suggesting that this is only a part of the role of a pilot.there are others facets, all of which you have ignored in your posts.this leads me to question how much you actually know about the subject you are discussing

i was being humble, i did say in my humble opinion. and i do fly at an aeroclub thanks, i enjoy it too.as to why would an airline hired me over a cadet.many reasons, both low houred cadets and those with more time have valuable roles to fill in any airline.experienced people will have the requirements for command quicker to name but one reason.or maybe you think monkeys should sit in the left too.maybe you could have an all monkey flight deck and penguins instead of cabin crew to do the safety demo.

i never said the 320/737 or any other type is only for top gun.it clearly isnt.im merely expressing my disagreement with you making wild statements about how a monkey can fly a jet/turboprop.

as for the good pilots dont exist thing.im a little confused here its probably a language thing.i dont really understand the point your trying to make.

as for my honesty, not really sure what your getting as here either

now answer me

1 what qualifies as having signinficant airbus experience, as looking as your recent post history you only got a licence not so long ago
.(or do we log ms flt sim time too!?):=
2 do you express these views on monkeys repacing pilots during interviews

3 are you currently employed

as you can probably tell question 2 and 3 are linked:ok:

Define "fly better".

You are still missing the vital point that there is a so much more to commercial flight than 'up down left and right'.

As for you telling people about CRM - sorry, had to have a good laugh at that one.

Where was that ignore button again?

http://www.defraudingamerica.com/mon...ar%20speak.jpg



there you go! at last we both agree. :ok:
This is why Cadets can fly an Airbus/Boeing..

PS: Yes I am currently employed flying long haul in the middle east (thanks god conditions are still good, but we do have our cadets).
I just hate pilots who think nobody can fly an airliner. Of course it requieres intensive 18 month training for the frozen atpl plus a further 4 weeks to get the type rating plus another 3 weeks to do the line training...:8

Judging by the amount of time windcheck has on his hands and his obvious bitterness towards EZY, he must be a failed/rejected candidate.

Still, every cloud has a silver lining - look at the entertainment value he is giving us on here!!!! :D

If only he'd learn to spell .............

but your initial statement that got everyones back up was pilots could be replaced by monkeys not about who could fly more accurately an autopilot or a human.i disagree with ......oh i give up:ugh:

oh dear....:bored:

Anyway the thread is about easyjet holding pool, and cadets have been offered a crap winter flexi-crew contract yesterday. That's how is low cost. Low cost means costs are low :ooh:

PS: Yes, sorry for my english, I am Portuguese (I wish English people could speak at least a second language as bad as my english :ok:)

wind check:

I love your monkeys!

The captain cannot believe the latest ACARS message from the company.

The F/O looks very intelligent but is reluctant to interfere in order to protect his future.

The F/E simply cannot believe what the pair of them are doing to his engines and absolutely does not agree with their choice of diversion airfield.

To the moderator and all,

Please, please, please, can we stop all this bitching and back biting and get back to the thread!!!!!

As an experienced air force multi-engine captain it seems as if I will not be able to get a job in the airline world as I am now too experienced to be a FO and I dont have the type rating for DEC. I am interested in the holding pool prospects for myself and others and what other options there may be.

I would be happy to suck up 6 months of low pay to get 500 hours on a modern commercial jet.

Thanks

When I came out of the RAF at the end of 1978 with 8000 hours and an ATPL I had no less than six instant job offers (going from BAC 1-11 with Monarch through B737 with Britannia to DC-10 with Laker).

Things are not like that any more.

Being realistic, the only thing I can suggest (assumng that you already have your ATPL) is to pay for a 738 type rating with Ryanair and join as a F/O.

With your background and three years of earning pretty good money, you will be in a good position to get your command.

The world has changed.

"I would be happy to suck up 6 months of low pay to get 500 hours on a modern commercial jet."


and here is the reason Ts&Cs get lower and lower whilst trainees pay more and more.......


Don't do it! Save the money and fly a little longer in HM's Services - it is far better than LOCO life !

My friend is an ex -RN F4 pilot- a more modest top gun you could not find.He currently flies the A319.He does not think that it is easy.With experience comes respect and humility -notably absent in some cases around here.

b/rgds