Ryanair and brookfield contract
 

Hello
For those looking for work, be cautious with new contracts Brookfield (Ryanair) Sense about the legal aspect of having to form a limited company in Ireland, you sign a contract that will not give you any guarantee for your future! Ryanair did not hesitate a single second resend several pilots during their training:\.
The new contract requires you to pay taxes in Ireland without contributing to a pension. If Ryanair terminates your contract, you will not be entitled to compensation.
So think twice before you sign!

This thread is already running as "Brookfield F/O Contract" and is several pages long

Hi Flymiata

can you elaborate on this

'Ryanair did not hesitate a single second resend several pilots during their training'.

Dont really understand what your getting at.

Here we go again... would someone please change the record?

I think anyone who as done any research into the Brookfield contract knows that it doesn't give any legally defensible guarantees. However there are many hundreds of us FOs making very good money on the brookfield contract.
Do the research - decide for yourself. Why come onto pprune with some illiterate and unfounded ramblings?

It's very simple, if you have family with children to feed , if you live a oder company to go to Ryanair hoping to improve your situation, no matter for Ryanair, if they do not need you, they throw you! And ballyboley, I was talking about the last contract, which is different from the old! I just wanted to remind those who still doubted that for Ryanair pilots are !!!! and they are only interested in money! But I am sure Ballyboley knows it!:ooh:

Round and Round we go!

Yes, it's called being 'Self Employed'....pretty much like being at ASL / Flying Group / Abelag. ( I noted you are in Belgium - Nice Duvel! :ok:)

Quote:
I just wanted to remind those who still doubted that for Ryanair pilots are !!!! and they are only interested in money

I'm not sure if you mean Ryanair are !!!! or Ryanair pilots are !!!!, I certainly hope its not the latter.

Quote:
if they do not need you, they throw you!

I know probably upwards of 40 Ryanair FO's, and have met and flown with many captains and I've never heard of anyone getting "thrown" by Ryanair just because they don't need them. Do you even work in Ryanair? Yes, there are times when we get a lot of standbys, but there are other times when we get lots of flying - I got paid for 108 hours last month, almost 40 of those at another base because things were slacker at my normal base. Ryanair have no obligation to do this - as you quite rightly say, the contract does not guarentee us a set number of hours, but myself and 3 others were away from base this month which as well as the increased hours, attracts a very nice 20Eur an hour which more than covers the B&B!
I'm by no means a Ryanair lover - like any airline, there are things that are annoying and we would all like to see changed, but on the whole I don't think it's as bad as some people like to make out on here.

Ballybooley cool the jets and let the man say what he has to say !!

I know it gets anoying all this anti ryanair crap ,But this man could be a work colleague and his story could be of interest to other Ryanair pilots.

flymiata are you a cadet ?or do you have first hand experience ?

Ballyboley

Hi there, it looks to me that you fly in RYR and im very interested in some questions. I really would appreciated you help.

1-Does RYR contract DEC???

2-Whats the average age of DEC´s and PIC time when get in?

3-Do DEC´S pay for the type? How much?

4-Can DEC´S choose base? if not, whats the policy? how much time to choose base?

5-Is RYR right now looking for DEC´S?

6-Whats the average paycheck all inclusive after tax for Capt. and FO (Brookfield contract).

7-Do you sleep everyday at home?

8-How many legs a day (T.Off/Landg)?How many Hrs monthly (average)

9-Do you get pay by hrs? if yes, how much Capt/FO?

Tks in advance.On the other hand, If someone from RYR knows this info, feel free to answer it.

Mr.White:ok:

No it is not called being self employed. It is called pretending to be self employed for the purpose of tax evasion. Is also called pretending to employ a contractor for the purpose of avoiding employment law.

RYR info
 

Mr White.

From Madrid, not SEPLA I hope:ugh:

Answers to your questions
1 Yes, if rated
2 Impossible to answer (why do you want to know?)
3 No.Not since you have to be rated
4 Yes. You can not choose base when you are in the company. You can wish.
5 Yes. Look at their website
6 :}
7 As a BRK No! As a RYR contract Yes:ok:
8 2 - 6. 72 hrs average
9 Yes as a BRK, fixed rate. You have to find out at the interview:cool: As RYR contract you have a monthly salary depending on what base you have.

And Mr White from Madrid. Apply and ask the questions at the interview.
Good luck
/Teddy

Ballyboley,
It's seems that you haven't understood what flymiata was speaking about, he was speaking about the cadet thrown out of the training before the line check, which is happening more and more...
For sure after the line check they will never throw you out of the company as you are not working for FR, but you will see slowly your sby's rising...especialy when your experience is rising and you are becoming really expensive.

In Fr there is three type of FO :
- The ryanair FO who has an average of 85 hrs a month. Fr pay them a basic salary and a lower sector pay, so it's expensive to let's them SBY.
- The low hours Brookfield FO, who is really unexpensive to fill the gap and to fly the long sector flights (>7hrs)
- The experienced Brookfield FO, who is really expensive and will be scheduled when there is no alternative and also they still receive hours as they are expected one day to pass Captain and FR is really in need of Cpt...
So it's happen a lot that the last category end up the month with 20 hrs and the first category 100 hrs.
Hope it will help some young cadets to make their decision... I really don't want to be in the seat of Brookfield Fo when FR will be full of Captain....

Regards,

Captain Mainwaring...


i know 2 guys in our base who have broken limbs in various accidents....i bet they wish they were on a ryanair contract and not Brookfield at the moment, facing 5 months off ill with no pay!

That is an excellent point and a very hidden catch in this scheme thebeast.

Bet they would not be without pay if they had personal disabilty insurance. It is not uncommon for the contracting pilot to provide for their own benefits, and retirement and insurance schemes.

That's the whole thing. For my part I know a Ryanair FO who broke is leg during the inspection of the A/C, unable to fly during 3 month, during those 3 month he has received is full basic salary and an average of his sector pay.

And if you have something happening outside your duty you have the "irish social security" who take care of your salary, and the "medical" insurance (where you live) who take care of the medical cost.

But that's true that's not taken in consideration when you are young, in good health and single... but when you are older and have a family...

not sure relying on the irish social security to top up your salary in the event that you cant work is wise:rolleyes:

True but at least you have something...

Hi all,

Sorry to jump off the topic a litlle, How do you actually apply for the Brokfield F/O contract.

Cheers in advance

You'd need to do the Ryanair pilot selection which costs £260. Apply through CAE and join a queue of apparently 500.

If you have experience on type as an FO then forget it.

Thats amazing I had 2 six day weeks this month alone, and have been doing 4-5 days a week all year!

Also those cadets being let go during training...? Maybe there was a reason they were let go? This is a big airplane full of people after all....:}

Average in our base and all our pilots can see the whole base roster as its posted up.

3 Standbys per shift per F/O

Fancy sharing the base name?

The professionals the contracting pilots are being forced to use are certainly not advising their clients. They are collecting money for themselves and for BRK.

Up until recently commercial pilots were charged extra for life insurance and critical illness cover. However some of the main insurance providers have now taken the view that commercial pilots are a much lower risk than single seat and hobby pilots. Because there are two people in the cockpit then the chances of an accident are reduced.

If you took out your life policy, even the one on your mortgage more than three years ago then it is probably worth your while revisiting the issue.

The same principles apply to income protection. The costs for pilots have come down. You will not be covered for the first 9 to 12 weeks but the premiums are fully tax deductible.

Any contracting pilot should be thinking about using the new Irish tax law where a company does not need to pay tax on its profits for the first 3 years to build up a rainy day fund to cover them for 12 weeks. So instead of paying £10k or £20k to Gordon Brown leave it in an Irish company and if you need it you can draw it out as a salary.

I agree though that most financial advisers haven't got a clue when it comes to us. In addition if you are buying new life insurance or income protection ask your broker for half his commission back. In the case of a life policy a broker will receive 100% of your first years premium and in the case of income protections it is 120%.

Untrue. Brookfield pilots are required to pay tax like everybody else.

That's correct, but everyone who works as a Brookfield pilot does so knowing full-well that they have no guaranteed hours. Ryanair have set up this system for their benefit, but many pilots are prepared to work in this way.

This post is a statement of the obvious. Sadly the Poster did not do his research properly before signing up to Brookfield.

Hidden catch? Not from anyone who has any clue about what it means to be self-employed or run a business.

Well if you seem to know everything about being "self-employed", maybe you'll want to see the IR's view on your employment status.

https://esi2calculator.hmrc.gov.uk/esi/app/index.html

Try that and see what they say :=

I tried it out, answered the questions truthfully as if I were on a Brookfield contract (no, I'm not I work as employed for someone else) and this was the result:

Employment Status Indicator Result
Based on the information you have provided, the worker is self-employed.

The result is based on the following grounds:

Version: 1.3.0.1
The worker is self-employed. [Why ?]
There is a low indication of substitution. [Why ?]
There is a medium indication of control over the worker. [Why ?]
There is a high indication of financial risk. [Why ?]
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In the couple of EU countries I've worked on contract, we were paid by an off-shore non-EU holding company. The flying was temporary and intercontinental. In the EU, claiming 'self-employed' status, I have had to declare I have more than 1 customer, even more than 2. My company is registered, accounts filed and taxes paid. Is this not the case in UK? Can you be self-employed working only for 1 agency with only 1 source of income? Do you really have freedom over your working schedule and time off periods? If not how can you be truely self-employed?

If you have 1000 hours experience on the 737, does that pretty much rule you out of Ryanair (1300TT) or will CAE or whoever else does recruitment consider you?

Mikehammer,

I just did it and:

As did I..

It's the interpretation of the questions which causes the differential.

Under the terms of their contract, if the worker is unable or unwilling to carry out the work personally are they obliged to send someone else to do it? No, you can't just send someone else to do the work

If the worker is unwilling to carry out the work personally, do they have any right to send someone else to do it? Nope


Could the worker bring in someone to help with the work the worker is engaged to do if necessary and pay them out of their own money? Nope

Can the worker be moved by the engager from one task to another as the engager's priorities change? Yes, for example base change

Can the worker decide how the work is done? No, the roster is published and you have no say on if you work tht roster or not

Does the worker have to provide not only minor items of equipment or those tools of the trade that workers customarily provide but also the major items of equipment needed to do the work? Not unless you have a spare 737 parked up.

Does the worker have to pay the cost of all the materials or supplies needed to do the work without being reimbursed? Nope

Is the worker paid an all-inclusive rate of remuneration that includes the costs of the worker's provision of substantial materials or supplies needed for the work? Nope, just paid for time spent on SBH

Is the worker required to provide a motor vehicle for use at work, the main purpose of which is to transport people, equipment, materials or goods, or in order to do the work, and is not just for travel to and from work or between sites? Nope

Which of the following best describes how the worker's main income is made up? Regular payment based on an hourly, daily, weekly or monthly rate


What is the statement that best describes where the worker does the work? Told where and when to go to work

How many other engagers has the worker done similar work for during the last 12 months? None, because you are contracted to fly for one company only.

Under the terms of their contract, if the worker is unable or unwilling to carry out the work personally are they obliged to send someone else to do it? No, you can't just send someone else to do the work

If the worker is unwilling to carry out the work personally, do they have any right to send someone else to do it? Nope

It is possible to swap your slot on the roster with someone else if for some reason you are unable to carry out the work.

Could the worker bring in someone to help with the work the worker is engaged to do if necessary and pay them out of their own money? Nope



Can the worker be moved by the engager from one task to another as the engager's priorities change? Yes, for example base change

Can the worker decide how the work is done? No, the roster is published and you have no say on if you work tht roster or not

Does the worker have to provide not only minor items of equipment or those tools of the trade that workers customarily provide but also the major items of equipment needed to do the work? Not unless you have a spare 737 parked up.

If the 737 is the place of work then if you are providing cans for your ears and a uniform then you are supplying the major items of equipment.


Does the worker have to pay the cost of all the materials or supplies needed to do the work without being reimbursed? Nope

If the 737 can be proven to be the place of work and not a piece of equipment then you do provide the materials needed.

The pilot also pays for type rating, line training, medical examinations etc. without them being reimbursed.


Is the worker paid an all-inclusive rate of remuneration that includes the costs of the worker's provision of substantial materials or supplies needed for the work? Nope, just paid for time spent on SBH



Is the worker required to provide a motor vehicle for use at work, the main purpose of which is to transport people, equipment, materials or goods, or in order to do the work, and is not just for travel to and from work or between sites? Nope

Which of the following best describes how the worker's main income is made up? Regular payment based on an hourly, daily, weekly or monthly rate


What is the statement that best describes where the worker does the work? Told where and when to go to work

How many other engagers has the worker done similar work for during the last 12 months? None, because you are contracted to fly for one company only.



I am being a little pedantic here but what I am trying to show is that even with limited knowledge can make an argument in favour of the self employed case then I expect a good barrister could tie the thing up in court for a few years.

If Ryanair could prove the the cockpit including the route and roster are the pilots place of business then the plane ceases to be a tool or piece of equipment and the uniform and headset are the equipment which could be provided by the pilot.

The safety guidelines and plane operations methods are not set down by Ryanair but by the regulator and Boeing.

This is the reason why the irish tax authorities have decided not to go after Ryanair. Its hard to justify the expense of going to court with Ryanair when the tax take is so low.

From a PR point of view it would be a tough time for the Inland Revenue to be wasting millions of pounds trying to prove that the pilots are employees and not self employed and all for the benefit of the Irish Government who will be the ultimate beneficiary given that as an employee of Ryanair you would be working for an Irish company and paying tax in Ireland. BRK would be ignored in the process.