Nobby................Respect!

Been on the crystal meth again sevenforeseven?

I don't understand the latest news from the bunker. VS order some A330's, smatter their staff with bonuses and then start to make staff jobless. I am only a poor SLF who puts his bum on a seat (J class naturally) but if there is some logic to it....

The letter to Cabin Crew states 406 redundancies so the "63" flight crew may have some credance. The route cutbacks announced now will need fewer crew/aircraft...........

I too have heard there's going to be up to 4 airframes grounded and a significant number of pilots made redundant as a result. My source got it from a management pilot there. Things just don't seem to add up at Virgin considering the recent quotes in the press from SRB.

Numbers get worse
 

I am afraid that the news is getting worse.

Latest figures that I have (from the same reliable source as before) are that there will be a further 105 compulsory redundancies PLUS the 21 already announced. That is approx 20% of the pilots out of the door, shortly after announcing market leading 'profits', 'gaining market share' and a new 'order' for 10 (?) x A330s ????

VS are in a mess and RB's efforts to mask their problems by having a go at BA recently are now coming home to roost. Very sad times for all at VS. Good luck to all.

Nobov, I'm sure your management pilot source is delighted that you are spouting company confidential info on PPRuNe.

RBs empire could be in deep trouble financially.The markets he's in, Finance,Airline ,Railways and Media have all taken a big hit in this recession-has he stretched himself to far ?

Management Source ??
 

'crewrest'

Where did I say that it was a 'management pilot source' ?? I will not reveal my sources, but this one is again impeccable, but not VS management.

It is hardly 'spouting company confidential' - have you seen Sky and BBC news recently ?!!

Whilst it is very sad news for all concerned, Branson has tried very hard to pull the wool over the eyes of the travelling public about the state of his company. The question remains, if VS are so 'well placed' as he recently claimed, then why make 600 staff redundant including approx 20% of your pilots ?

There has always been a tendency on this forum for some people to knock the likes of BA/CX/AA etc and 'protect' the smaller niche carriers like VS. In addition I have witnessed some very selective moderating with regard to any story about VS that does not fit the image.

I am afraid that times are changing, VERY rapidly, and no amount of spin will pull RB out of this PR hole that he has dug for himself. As I said earlier, good luck to all. Very difficult times.

Financial Times 2nd July 2009

Virgin Atlantic to cut 600 jobs
By Kevin Done
Published: July 2 2009 00:33 | Last updated: July 2 2009 00:33
Virgin Atlantic, the UK long-haul airline controlled by Sir Richard Branson, is cutting capacity by 7 per cent in the coming winter season and is planning to axe about 600 jobs, or close to 8 per cent of the workforce.

Steve Ridgway, chief executive, said: “The outlook for the industry is as bleak as ever and all airlines are having to shrink their businesses. The fittest will survive and be in a stronger position when the economy grows.”

He said the group would seek to minimise the number of compulsory redundancies.

The latest contraction in the operations follows the elimination of another 600 jobs announced last February together with a pay freeze from last March.

In total, Virgin Atlantic, which is 49 per cent owned by Singapore Airlines, has announced plans to reduce its previous workforce of 8,400 by more than 14 per cent.

The airline said it was planning to suspend its daily London Heathrow/Chicago service in the coming five-month winter season from the end of October and would reduce its twice-daily Heathrow/Hong Kong service to a single daily flight.

The UK carrier has previously indicated its financial performance was expected to deteriorate significantly in the current financial year to the end of February 2010.

VS capacity contraction
 

From ATW Daily News...........

Thursday July 2, 2009
Virgin Atlantic Airways CEO Steve Ridgway said yesterday that the carrier will cut its winter capacity by 7% year-over-year, putting up to 600 jobs in jeopardy. "The outlook for the industry is as bleak as ever and all airlines are having to shrink their businesses," he said, according to press reports. "We will look to minimize the number of compulsory redundancies and ensure we treat our staff as fairly as possible." VS's London Heathrow-Chicago O'Hare service will be suspended, while flights to Hong Kong will be halved

There are some people on this thread who do not seem to have much grasp of the real world of business.

Yes VS did make a profit and has rewarded its' staff accordingly which is a very rare situation in today's world.

However those conditions which enabled it to make a profit do not exist now and therefore like the majority of airlines today, it is having to cut back accordingly. Very sad for those affected but is it better to keep them all on - make bigger losses with bigger cuts down the line?

The acquisition of new aircraft is a completely seperate issue but clearly in their business case it makes sense to them and will hopefully be to the benefit of the company and the staff further down the line.

DartHerald
 

I suspect another LHR carrier recently acquired may be in for a dose of judicious restructuring.

WidebodyWillie

Whilst I really do understand your point - yes it is right. At that time those bonusses were justified and whilst the state of the company has changed - those people are still entitled to that money.

Trust me I have been on the wrong end of such circumstances but it is fair.

I would like to wish all VS flight crew the best in these turbulent times.

Like a previous post here I think that the morals in VS are somewhat disappointing. For a Company that prides itself on its staff (see their web site for an example) to give staff a bonus followed by a P45 is very odd and is a strange way to treat your staff.

layoffs=VS SOP.

And when P45 is received, no RSVP. RB is an unwholesome character, despite the PR.

Have to agree with the previous posters- SRB is a fair weather Boss. Where was he after Sept 11? I'm glad I ignored the spin & left. As for SR words fail me!! Ripped us off over those seats & kept his job - Teflon Tony (as in BLIAR) would have been proud!

More importantly for all those great colleagues I left behind :ok: all the best for the future.

About a week ago SRB was talking of new routes to Vancouver etc., making a possible takeover bid of BA and now this! It really beggars belief the amount of spin that comes out of his mouth. Hopefully the company will handle the process with respect toward the employees in the firing line.

I don't think spin is the right word!

Is this the armchair airline executives forum? Most of the crap being posted on here should be in Airlines, Airports & Routes forum or better still, Spotters Balcony! :rolleyes:

Apart from those pilots who are employed by or have been employed by Virgin, the rest of the comments on here look like a bunch of know it all enthusiasts who, apart from reading Airliners Monthly, have about as much knowledge of what Virgin pilots T's & C's are about as a pimple on your bum knows about brain surgery. :ugh:

Whilst Virgin directors and senior managers may be stupid enough to not realise that their bonuses will affect morale amongst their workforce, even though they are bonuses earned when times were good, the resulting announcement of more redundancies is a blow to an already demoralised workforce. The fact that the first stab they took at projecting their losses for this downturn have proven to be so very wrong is only an indictment of their poor judgement.

The announcement yesterday should not come as a huge surprise but from the pilots perspective, it just reflects the short sightedness of some of the decisions being made. The festering problem that is being created is that when the business starts to pick up, the same management will be caught on the wrong foot as expansion requires more pilots than are available, either due to not enough wanting to come back or worse still, not enough trainers to train the backlog. This in turn will have a disrespected management trying to get demoralised pilots to work outside of their terms and conditions which will create friction.

The easy answer? There isn't one and I'm not paid enough to make those decisions. Amongst the pilot workforce there is the belief that rather than laying off so many pilots they should be looking at offering unpaid leave and/or less hours a year. The overheads will still be there but the upside is that when the recovery kicks in there will be enough trained bodies in place to keep the show running smoothly.

As a pilot, I and my colleagues have to keep all options open. We would like to preserve the jobs of those near the end of the seniority list, even if it means some sacrifice. Our senior management and above don't seem to grasp the concept of keeping morale as it is not a tangible asset. PR is one thing but celebrating and partying just before announcing yet more redundancies because they got the numbers wrong in the first place is tantamount to irresponsibility.

The armchair experts should bugger off to their respective forums on here and leave us pilots to discuss our T's & C's. They can read our comments but please refrain from posting your simplistic and ignorance based views here. Just because have flown with us once or twice or your mate is a frequent flyer with Virgin doesn't confer on you the right turn this post into a spotters free for all.

Mods, can we please make sure that this isn't turned into another of those interminably boring posts that the armchair enthusiasts have a habit of ruining? :mad:

RB's spin is really starting to bite him on the backside....

From Gerson Lehrman Group Website Financial Comment :

''So what’s gone wrong in just a few weeks after so brazenly boasting how efficient it was in contrast to rival British Airways?

The simple answer is that Virgin is waking up to the realities of the marketplace and without any major airline alliance that wants this subsidised carrier amongst their ranks, the battle which Branson’s baby faces is more than just an uphill one.”

“Throw in the worse-than-expected forward bookings at Virgin (down 30% on last year compared to BA 17% apparently) and quickly you see that its reliance on premium customers is far greater than that of British Airways, particularly with its smaller network that has less room to offset big declines in demand for that class of travel.''

''Little wonder then that BMI and Lufthansa are equally keeping themselves at arms length from Virgins ailing overtures. While all of this goes on, the Virgin PR machine will do little to console the staff it has to cull for its mismanaged operations.''

Unhappy times and very fair comments Bart - Good Luck to all.

Not good PR
 

Yes, the executives may have been due their bonuses and rises but it really doesn't look good at all does it? In the long run it would surely pay then to forgo these payments and avoid such headlines as this:
As Virgin sheds jobs, chiefs enjoy 40% pay rises - Times Online
That is what leadership is all about.

Fly747,

Virgin rebutted that story today. Do you mean there could be truth in it?

Heaven forfend....

BART
One of the best posts I have read on here :ok:Respect:ok:

Analysis

So what’s gone wrong in just a few weeks after so brazenly boasting how efficient it was in contrast to rival British Airways?

The simple answer is that Virgin is waking up to the realities of the marketplace and without any major airline alliance that wants this subsidised carrier amongst their ranks, the battle which Branson’s baby faces is more than just an uphill one.

For over six months, rival British Airways has seen plummeting premium passenger figures, particularly in Asia where Virgin is slashing flights to Hong Kong by 50%. While Virgin has moved to take out system capacity for its winter schedule, however, by not doing so for this summer means it still has airplanes to fly relying on low yield fares as oil prices continue to climb. Compounding Virgin’s cost base woes is the highly inefficient A340-300/-600 fleet, which guzzle as much fuel as oil prices rise – no wonder that Qatar Airways’ CEO Akbar Al-Baker said he wanted to “throw them away”. Virgin’s recent A330 order is evidence of that move, albeit several years too late.

Throw in the worse-than-expected forward bookings at Virgin and quickly you see that its reliance on premium customers is far greater than that of British Airways, particularly with its smaller network that has less room to offset big declines in demand for that class of travel. It already got rid of the manicure services to cut costs – a gimmick 10 years ago Virgin would have never considered abandoning.

British Airways by no means is not fairing any better, however its forward bookings have remained fairly stable and premium demand on its key North Atlantic routes have stabilised. Of course, the ongoing talks at British Airways and unions could undermine its business model but that’s another discussion altogether.

Singapore Airlines’ parent Temasek struggling to even give away the 49% holding it has in Virgin Atlantic - the Singaporean carrier has oft stated desire to fly to North America from a European hub and it may as well consider buying out the other half, keep the brand and operate those routes via proxy.

That of course is the long term outlook. But if people look at how British Airways is coping and start to get “nervy”, then the real clatter of worry is in the veil of PR gambling being removed to display the ineptness with which Virgin Atlantic is run. There’s a reason why the Star, SkyTeam and Oneworld alliances do not entertain this “look at me!” airline – it simply has nothing on offer for them.

Little wonder then that BMI and Lufthansa are equally keeping themselves at arms length from Virgins ailing overtures.

While all of this goes on, the Virgin PR machine will do little to console the staff it has to cull for its mismanaged operations.
Analyses are solely the work of the authors and have not been edited or endorsed by GLG.

The above article seems to suggest the fuel guzzling a340 fleet is a big part of Virgin's woes but I wreckon the real reason for the further jobs cull is the forward bookings. I guess if the world economy picks up quickly that could follow suit.

or the threat of a BA strike...

Even at full steam ahead, strike would be mid Sept at the earliest.

Not sure the threat of a BA strike will offer much help according to the huge VS drop in forward bookings reported (30%+ drop last month on premium apparently) The benefit will be very short lived and will not avert the current serious long term problems of none of the alliances wanting to get VS on board.

My sources (very reliable as you have seen in previous posts) have no doubt that BA will hit the nuclear option with cabin crew this time. All of July talking to ACAS, followed by 90 day notice of imposition of new contracts. By the time a legal ballot is called and actioned, earliest dates will be Sep/Oct - summer season over. They already have ring fenced funds in place to take on the cabin crew union and break them into tiny pieces this time. Watch this space.

VS has huge exposure to the N. Atlantic and little else. They offer a tiny amount of routes elsewhere and are unable to redirect their efforts accordingly. BA have a large Worldwide route structure which, apart from the N. Arlantic, is still apparently holding up pretty well. VS need some new non Atlantic routes, and quickly.

Whilst not directly related to the current redundancies, the press are starting to show serious interest in the previously squeaky clean image:

Daily Mail 7/7/09

Sir Richard Branson's Virgin Megastores accumulated losses of more than £300million before they were sold off two years ago.

Accounts filed at Companies House show that Virgin Holdings, which owns a number of Branson's businesses, swung into the red in the year that ended in March 2008.

Profits of £151.7million turned into losses of £227.3million that year after a one-off operating loss of £324.3million.

That came after the 125 Virgin Megastores were sold to Zavvi, a rival music retailer, which went into administration last year with debts of more than £100million.

A Virgin spokesman said that Virgin Holdings' losses were mainly due to accumulated losses at Megastores over many years, which were written off once the business was sold.

The accounts also reveal that Virgin paid Zavvi £61million to break a licensing agreement for the use of the Virgin brand.

The firm also wrote off another £21million when it sold Virgin Vie, the cosmetics business, to its management. This also led to a payment - of £8.8million - to remove the Virgin brand.

It may be Sept at the earliest for a possible BA strike but the damage is being done on This Morning Simon Calder was warning of possible disruption which cant be doing BA any favours and in turn can only help VS in the short term.

Yes, look what happened when a threatened strike by Monarch was in the press, lots of cancellations by holidaymakers. VS must be really pleased that they have announced that they will take industrial action. Joe Public doesnt know whether its going to be next week or in Sept.

Well, it (the general public) does. Front page of the Telegraph today (well, yesterday) mentioned August at the earliest. Besides, we all know how reliable Simon Calder is when it comes to facts about the airline industry (still looking for that £100k average salary....)

There will be no strike at BA as it will be the end of UNITE as a union (Unemployed do not pay union dues !).

They know that and so does the BA board.

I see Branson has recently announced plans to seek approval from the DoT for anti trust immunity with Delta on routes between the US and Oz ??

Hang on a minute, wasn't it RB that claimed that an AA/BA tie up should be turned down by the DoT as it would be bad for competition and would damage consumers' interests !!!

I pity the VS workforce having to cope with such erratic behaviour.

Royhudd
 

Roy says

How right you are! Having been duped by the virgin spin of "come and join the virgin family" and lived the entire duration of Virgin Express Ireland, I know exactly how dysfunctional that family is!!!!

We were ceremoniously dumped without ANY assistance in arranging interviews with VA who were hiring at the time. All we asked RB for was a feed into an interview and he couldn't give a stuff.

This guys a knob and doesn't belong anywhere near the public.

Pulling the wool over your eyes - hopefully from the fast unravelling cardigan.......

Any guy who makes his seventy year old mother carry his bags clearly has no concept of respect. :=

I wish you all luck guys. IMHO you will need it!

Good to see you're not still bitter about it though.

:rolleyes:

Bitter? Not exactly. I tend to have a long memory with these things though. When you and your partner both lose your livelihood it tends to leave scars. Thats all part of life's education process and should stop us making the same mistake again. Thanx for your sympathy though! :yuk:

Anyone have any news whether our own Danny F has survived the troubles at VS ??

No reason other than we all owe him an awful lot of our thanks for pprune and I understand he gave up a reasonably secure job to get his bum into the RHS of a 747....

Fingers crossed....

Danny was senior enough to never be threatened by the recent troubles.

Do you mind me asking guys how many pilots actually were forced out of Virgin this year during these troubling times?