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And I stand by my argument that age discrimination is un-fair. As long as I have the obligation to pay taxes and the law says I can work until retirement age, then I believe I have the same right as any other man to apply and be interviewed. No automatic job, nothing but fair play; the same chance for all.
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regarding qatar recruitment process
hi helen!!!
as you suggested QR as an option, they will be in Madrid next month. I am, nowadays, 43 years old and I have a huge background in the travel industry and also in customer service satisfaction. Do you think I will have a chance?? Regards, Gus:8 |
Any discrimination is "un-fair"(sic)
ADFS,
I am not posting here to please you nor to become your friend. You came on a professional forum to share your experience. Expect to face different opinion and counter-arguments, this is a democracy play. You actually discriminated yourself, just like EK did, when you opposed yourself to "the zillion of game boy and girls". If you categorize people, don't expect a run-for-profit airline to do it other way. I never judged you and/or your acts, just emitted some thoughts and questionned your reasonning (especially your curious correlation between safety and experience only). And...sometimes you mixed up everything: where do you pay your taxes? Somewhere in EU I suppose. So if you thought you had any right regarding employement/age discrimination issue, please refer to your local authorities 'cause UAE is not EU! Dicrimination is legal here: CHAPTER II EMPLOYMENT OF WORKERS, JUVENILES AND WOMEN SECTION I EMPLOYMENT OF WORKERS ARTICLE (9) Work is a right of the United Arab Emirates Nationals. Others may not by employed in the United Arab Emirates except as provided for in this Law and its executive orders. ARTICLE (10) In the event of non-availability of national workers, preference shall be given to: 1.Arab workers who are nationals of an Arab Country. 2.Workers of other nationalities. Food for thought:...and that was well before the crisis: Age Discrimination Is Still a Harsh Reality 09/ 12/ 2006 by Charles R. McConnell A 60-year-old engineer who found himself unemployed when his company folded immediately began seeking a new job, but after six months of active searching, he remained unemployed. During those months, he found out about several jobs he could've had, including positions as a video store clerk, supermarket stock handler and courier driver. He received no offers in his primary field, although there was supposedly a demand for engineers locally. Another unemployed professional on the edge of the Baby-Boomer age distributed dozens of résumés with no success. An outplacement counselor suggested that she rewrite her résumé in tighter, less detailed form so that a reader could no longer infer her approximate age. The new résumé earned her a few responses, but she never got past an initial interview. As she noted, "They simply have to see me to tell how old I am." Unfortunately, age discrimination is alive and operating in most areas of American business. It potentially affects all older workers. Sometimes, it's a problem for older workers who have been steadily employed at the same jobs, but find themselves pushed out for a variety of "other" reasons. It's a significantly greater problem for those who seek to change jobs or find new employment following layoffs or retirement. Age discrimination flourishes in spite of legislative prohibitions. The Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967 established 40 as the age at which legal protection begins, and it boosted the age at which someone could be made to retire from 65 to 70. A subsequent amendment removed the mandatory retirement limit entirely. Because age discrimination is illegal, only one question can legally be asked about an individual's age on a job application or during an interview: Are you at least 18 years of age? And this question exists only because of the implications of child-labor laws. Age can only be a legitimate factor in employment or retirement for jobs in which it's a bona fide occupational qualification. This would include an airline pilot, a police officer or a firefighter, for example. Even so, age discrimination problems are numerous. For several years, age-discrimination complaints have been one of the two most active categories of discrimination charges (the other is sex discrimination, primarily sexual harassment). And age discrimination charges have been steadily increasing as the number of workers in their 40s and 50s grow. The number of age bias complaints filed with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission increased more than 40 percent from 1999 to 2002, and it continues to grow as more and more Baby Boomers age. Most laws addressing employment have their weaknesses, but most of the age problem lies not in the state of legislation but in attitudes of employers toward older workers. Many employers automatically see older workers as less productive and less willing to learn than younger workers and view older workers as costlier than others to keep on the payroll. Yet it has been demonstrated repeatedly that older workers are absent less frequently than younger workers and are less likely to contribute to rapid turnover. Looking at aging workers from the employer's perspective, we can perhaps partly understand why many companies are reluctant to hire older employees, especially for professional or managerial positions. It can cost a considerable amount to hire someone for a responsible position and bring that person up to speed, and employers don't care to spend such resources on someone they perceive as unlikely to remain for long. And some employers assume that older applicants want non-demanding employment or part-time work only. A number of steps have been taken to encourage older workers to remain in or return to the workforce. A few years ago, the government removed the Social Security earnings limitation so that an individual can now earn any amount through work without experiencing reduced Social Security benefits. Also, changes in retirement plans and the rules governing them have altered many plans so much that the capacity to accrue benefits is no longer cut off at some arbitrary number of years. We hear much about increasing opportunity for older workers. One pamphlet distributed to seniors proclaimed: "There's good news for workers age 50 and older. You're becoming an increasingly hot commodity." In practice, however, many seniors see this as a good news-bad news situation––with the good news being that jobs are there, at least in some areas, but the bad news being that most of the jobs truly available to seniors are of entry-level caliber. It should be interesting to see how this all plays out as significantly increasing numbers of Baby Boomers age into their 60s and discover that "ageism" is not only real but strongly entrenched as well. |
As long as I have the obligation to pay taxes and the law says I can work until retirement age, then I believe I have the same right as any other man to apply and be interviewed. I was going to let it go, but I can't let a statement as silly as that pass! AFDS, you claim not to be naive. You do understand that you were applying to Work for Emirates based in Dubai? 1) You have NEVER paid tax in the UAE (nobody does) and 2) Rights are different from country to country depending on their individual laws. If you are the type of person (and your posts strongly suggest you are) that feel he has an inalienable set of rights and gets upset (as you obviously have) if they are not respected, you've dodged a bullet as you wouldn't have lasted two minutes in Emirates. This country has laws and rights very different from the West. Locals have different (greater) rights than expats, Women have different (lesser) rights than Men and so on. As to Emirates, they can pick and choose as they like. If you feel you have a "Right" to an interview, god knows what you would have felt you have a "Right" to once you were here. Best for all that you didn't. I would strongly advise you, however, not to trot that attitude out ANYWHERE where culture in an issue. In Asia, the ME, Africa or most other places where you are a cultural minority, a foreigner asserting "I have the Right!!" goes down like a lead balloon! |
I don´t get it: I am half arab and black. Why do you assume
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Where did I make any assumption about your race or colour?
Everyone is a foreigner somewhere, and to assume you have the same rights elsewhere as at home, or that paying taxes in one place gives you entitlements elsewhere is silly and naive, WHEREVER you are from. |
AFDS: No need to get emotionally terrorized . . .
Your attitude suggests that you have grown up with the dangerous idea that the world owes you something: Freedom from age discrimination. A right to a job in a foreign country. A reward for your personal expense and sacrifice in becoming a pilot. Recognition of your A330 flying experience!
. . . It may help to settle your nerves if you would just lower your lofty expectations when pursuing employment in a third world country. Accept the fact that you will be a second class citizen in the sand box; a guest worker with no rights. Your employment contract and your rosters will only be pacifiers. . . . Completely meaningless and uneforceable by any expat in any court of law in any country in the middle east or asia. Your supreme choice is to accept the working conditions, or not to accept the working conditions. :ooh: |
Ha Ha, come on wizofoz, lighten up....your point is well taken; no matter what I have to say you have a negative response to shell out.
I think the issue has come to an end, as far as I am concerned it has, so thanks for the inputs everybody:ok: |
Too bad, that could have helped:
New Job Vacancy We have recently received a new job vacancy posting on Flightdeck Recruitment which may be of interest to you. A330 Captain - Europe FDR Job ID: 3403 Posted: March 27th 2009 Age limit for applicants: 60 Type-rated pilots only may apply. Minimum hours (on type): 1000 Minimum hours (total): 1500 A330 Flight Crews (18 two man) well capitalized start up carrier based Europe with international flight lanes and bases, contract positions, 12 months with auto renewal and full benefits June 09 start Captains 5K TT w/2K as PIC on type, FOfficers 2K TT with 1K on type, JAR FAA or other major license (Aussie Cdn) |
ADFS
Well, what can I say ... you were discriminated against because of your AGE. You applied for a job with an airline that was NOT in your home country ( from what I have gathered) Well, I am ex SAA ( Born and Bred in SA), and after 15 years of total dedication to my job with SAA, I (in a nutshell....became a victim of the AA, BE marlarkey ) As pissing off as it was, I just endevoured to move on and found even more DISCRIMINATION along the way( I am a GIRL), but i just persevered.
To be honest, I did find your post a bit arrogant, but dont feel alone, because I find most posts by some "senior" pilots arrogant, simply because they forget they were also "rookies" at some stage in their flying career. I have faced race, sex and age discrimination , and overcome all of them. |
ADFS,At 54 with your time you arent as qualified as many other equally unemployed types including a 49 yo tri tre retre on all types ex uk.
So wind your neck in and stop whinging. You didnt have the hrs for DEC, you didnt get selected as f/o. Too inexperienced for job one and too experienced (read old) for job two.The guy mentioned above didnt even get an Iview with EK as he was 2 yrs over the random DEC age limit. Hes not on here moaning. Im with Wiz on this you came on here whinging and didnt like the answer. His best advice was that with your outlook on life you were lucky you didnt come to Dubai. You and Dubai would both have hated it. Now build a bridge and move on. Now Im sure flyd (ek lite) would love to have you. Lots of old farts there trying to out oldfart each other. Not a teenager amongst them:ok: |
I ask you to re-read my original post. I did not mean to whine if it came across like that...I am actually a humble guy that simply hates to be rejected for something that is so natural; age.
My years ( 20 ) flying have produced over 13.5k years of varied types of flying...DC3 cargo in let´s say rather challenging conditions; Cargo Falcon and later Executive; Airline Ops on Fokker 50;Bae ATP;B 737;A 330 and 320 family. All this in USA,Mexico,Caribbean,South America,Europe,Middle East on short,medium and long haul operations, including ETOP and all in between. This is fact. But hey, because of life circumstances I could´nt afford my licenses until I reached 34, is that disqualifying ?? For my age, others have "significantly more experience" and so what. Note I have between 6 and 11 years to give to a company and when I apply at a place that flies my current type then isn´t that ground to reconsider ? Come on. By the way, I am punting for all the other guys and girls out there in my age group in the same situation. It could be that some guys here have Mom or Dad to turn to when the crap hits the fan and have never understood my point from post 1 on. |
ADFS
You need to move on chap. As Wizofoz says, there were a couple of thousand applications for a hundred jobs at most. It is impossible to interview everybody, and everybody that was turned down was turned down for a reason. Too old, too young, not enough hours, won't fit in. don't like the academic qualifications, don't like the personality blah blah. It is tough. The chances are you still peer through the eyes of an 18 year old (that's how I feel), and then bugger! you look in the mirror, 'still not to bad you think', but the ones paying the money see it different. They are the ones investing the money. Imagine you were investing the money, what would you do? Lets say you have £15 K to spend on a BMW. You pick the model, and you have two examples to choose from. One is 15 years old, and one is 6 years old, both at the same price, both will do the job equally as well. Which one will you put your money on? In a way you are lucky you got the letter from EK. They told you why, which allows you to rethink. A uk airline would have simply said, 'no thanks', leaving you thinking 'Why'. I don't know either you or Wizofoz, but I feel you are shooting him down because you don't like what he says. I believe he has just been honest with you. You have been very laudatory to those that gave you a hug, and not so with those that expressed a different view, yet you came on here to canvas opinions. If you came on here for a hug, you should have just asked for one. Bye the way, if you are concerned about discrimination then spare a thought for the young girls that go cabin crew with EK. I don't know current rules, but my understanding of a few years back (I am sure someone here can give the correct gen), was that girls had to be single, had to be good looking and if they did not get into supervision or training, they were on the scrap heap in their late 20's. Now that's discrimination, but when it's your train set and you are not in the legislation minefield of the EU, you can do what you like. |
I just interviewed and had sim assesment for a middle east operator and have a start date for may next. I am grateful. Thanks, I guess I can become my old nice self again!:ok:
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Congratulations!
Who is that lucky ME operator? Maybe someone else in your recent position could benefit from that... |
Shortfuel
You are a naughty naughty boy!;) |
ADFS
It's a cold fact that age is against you. While wizofoz may be a nice guy, he comes across not very well informed. If HE reflects the attitude of EK flight crew then you're better off with a rejection letter regardless (irregardless is not a word) of the reason. You, and others, mention safety. EK does not enjoy an unblemished safety record so, why would anyone use safety as part of this discussion? We're all safe pilots. Whether we are or just like to think we are. If EK only hire the best then these incidents prove to all of us, maybe not all EK pilots are "the best". It's all subjective. Those who suggest your age may mean you will be less likely to learn or to be taught something new (such as a new type) must ignor the fact their own airline trains crew in exactly the same age range as yourself and who seem to do so, successfully. Unless EK only have Captains under the age of 50, this argument sounds more like a silly comment than a sensible one. Depending on when (what year) you jumped into a pilot career and on what continent, economies vary globally. If you started late and found yourself in an economic downturn, of course your PIC/SIC times are going to be different. In some cases by large amounts. Unfortunately, we don't always get to decide when we upgrade to capatin. Especially at an airline with a seniority list. Most of us realize that. The HR professionals and pilots who decide on whether or not to hire you based on PIC/SIC times, NEVER take that into account and would not likely even think to analyse your career with that in mind. It's about totals and not always common sense. EK is run by an out-of-control HR department that takes three days to screen a candidate. It's simply a game. If you rehearse the game (with the assistance of Capt's X,Y, and Z), practice the CRM exercises and choose your words wisely, you're in. Nulifying the process designed to provide "only the best". As for the age thing, it's been a moving target at EK for years. Rised AND lowered on a whim. Someone like yourself, who could give them 10 years service and not have to be trained on all types, would not impose an unreasonable or senseless training cost, so any ROI argument of your training is moot. Governments make laws to appease us older folks. They did so years ago. Believe me, these laws have no teeth and only on occasion get enforced. At least EK gave you the news in english and didn't hand you some B.S. all tied up in a bow. whatever you decide and wherever you end up, Best of luck, Willie :ok: |
Dear ADFS & WIZOFF or whatever ur names were.Presumably both of you guys are over 18.The exchanges you guys are having remind me off the tiffs i had in primary school.Grow up guys.If ADFS is having a bad time let him vent his steam a bit.Wizoff u have the luxury of having your job,u made ur point if someone doesn't agree to ur view let it be, that's what a 44 year old with a job should do.Spare me the replyb as no offence is implied.:=:=
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Maybe it was because he's an asshole, not just an old asshole?
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I was rejected from 2 Corporate Captain positions (Citation VII and CJ2) for being too young. I met all their other requirements, was contacted on a couple of occasions for phone interviews but was told they were looking for someone older (35-45). I was told many VIPs want their pilots to be older. This came from two different operators. "Good resume, too bad you're not 5-6 years older!" Companies know what they want. It sucks when that rules you out, but that's the way it is. The quicker you move on the better.
rcl PS- I eventually found a much better job. Things happen for a reason. |
Ah, so now besides being refered to as an old fart, now I am an asshole ? And I am the arrogant one ? :ugh:
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Originally Posted by ADFS
(Post 4806256)
Hello all,
I have recieved a rejection letter from Emirates, the reason being my age. I am fully active and current, typed on the 330, with over 13K total hours, 6k captain, full of spunk and life and willing to contribute to their success as a productive First Officer....never mind my age, 54. Yet I am refused even the option; they have never seen me, they don´t know that I am in better shape now than when in my 30´s and that I hold many thousands of hours, incident-free, in airline operation world-wide. Great, so now because of my age I can sit back and watch my life fall apart, all the struggles and studies for nothing, lose my house, who the hell cares, theres a zillion young game boys and girls to be exploited.... I´m angry....anybody else ?? |
Originally Posted by TnAviator88
(Post 11613046)
I'm pretty aggravated, they just gave me a notice that I can't apply to their flight academy because I have to be 27 or younger. I'm only 35, wth?
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Originally Posted by TnAviator88
(Post 11613046)
I'm pretty aggravated, they just gave me a notice that I can't apply to their flight academy because I have to be 27 or younger. I'm only 35, wth?
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I just came across this thread by accident. I’m a 64-year-old training captain with easyJet who is about to retire. The whole age versus experience thing is a very difficult issue. Although it might not be stated as a policy, I’m pretty certain we would not look at a 54-year-old copilot with or without an A320 rating. We have quite a number of 27 to 32-year-old captains could have come up through the cadet system. We have in the past had some older first officers, but it’s not always been as stunning success. That is obviously a sweeping generalisation and there are clearly exceptions. In terms of accusations of ageism, I believe we have in the past taken captains who are over 60 years old. We would always be concerned about why someone has not made captain by age 54. That said, there are clearly a lot of very rational explanations as to why that may be the case.
What Emirates or other airlines do is up to them. What I can say is that no one wants to take unnecessary chances in pilot selection. It would be clearly outrageous to suggested every first officer in their 50s is somehow deficient in their capability. However, it would also be true to say that there is a significantly increased training risk. Therefore, the harsh reality is that for many major airlines the door has closed at that stage. It is for others to decide if that is an acceptable policy or not. |
Count ; AFDS posted 15 years ago. I too just noticed this thread but not by accident, it just caught my eye as I lurk about on a Sunday morning trying to put off pruning the Palm tree.
I won der if, in 2009, when he was rejected,Emirates actually stated an age limit. Many didn;t. He would have every right to be miffed if there was no stated limit but he found out later that such a limit clearly existed and he thus wasted his time even applying. I was similarly rejected by Emirates. There was no stated age limit but the rejection letter then stated that since I exceeded the age limit (not quoted), i could not be considered. I too was hurt, cross, rejected, miffed and took it up with Emirates. Got nowhere. As many others advised AFDS, l trust he let it go and concentrated on other outlets where there was no stated age limit and maybe, even got in somewhere really nice like SIA DEC. Goes the other way too. Recent selection criteria for the BA Speedbird "Acadamy" fully funded pilot training programme, i think, is limited to max age on entry, wait ;..............................55........................... ! Lots of skin in the selection game and even helped write the criteria. But we were very clear in the "stated" conditions. I think palm tree pruning should be limited to 35 years of age and fully fit. Ok, risking it before sun-downers at the Lithos. |
I was also rejected by EK because of age for DEC. They rejected me within an hour but then phoned me at home to offer an SFI interview which I accepted and passed, subsequently working in that capacity for them. I had no issue being rejected due age, they were completely up front on that issue. Older pilot’s unfortunately have health issues as they grow older and self evidently the youth versus experience equation balances downwards based on insurance and medical advice. Another fact: Emirates works the pilots to the limit and robust health is required to deal with the work plus circadian issues. EK is not an airline for the faint hearted: boasting about your experience and brilliance goes down like a sh1t sandwich. A little humility goes a long way. I would like to play cente forward for Tottenham but I suspect approaching 70 I am too old….
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Count of Monte Bisto........We would always be concerned about why someone has not made captain by age 54. That said, there are clearly a lot of very rational explanations as to why that may be the case. I am in a similar 'boat' to the OP, and I have been beating myself up for years about this. I am always professional, and stayed competant and good at my job by working hard. But I started flying at 35, after deciding on a career change. I left the first airline after 5 years because my family life was suffering from the long distance commuting I had to do. The next airline was fine for many years but went bust around the time I would have been changing seats. An application to an A330 operator was going well until they saw my passport and DoB........ I took a temporary freighter job - many thanks Tom :ok: - and then had to move house for the next airline, but that went bust a year later after the parent company had been in business for 178 years ! The next airline was the main UK legacy carrier and I had passed day 1 of the assessment, when the Covid lockdown came in, literally overnight. So that was that. I have since tried to get other flying jobs and train driver jobs and signaller jobs but all to no avail. Now at least I know why - it's simply age discrimination, not a lack of competance or ability or experience. FWIW, friends and family are always very surprised about this pilot age discrimination. This is a great shame, since I for one am not the typical fat older person. I keep fit and do a 10km run every week. I am wiry, have a low BMI, do daily exercises, and have a Class 1 medical. I am not your typical slow, unhealthy, unfit old fat guy who has let theselves go with a beer gut and bad knees. We had to sell our house and downsize when my last employer went bust, and I could not pay the mortgage or get another flying job. What really annoyed me was after being rejected, I decided to volunteer for the life boats. I have been around small boats on the sea all my life, am thin and fit and swim like a fish etc, etc. and thought I could as least do something useful, but guess what - they said I was too old !! And that was without even seeing me. A one legged person a year younger than I was would be useless in a life boat but since I was over the arbittrary age limit, they would not consider me. I won't get my pension until 67 - years away yet - but these companies won't employ older people, so what do we do ? :confused: . |
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