To answer the original question.

- LH Italia will fly on the Lufthansa AOC initially as they apply for an Italian AOC which will most likley take a while

- Will be flown by DLH Pilots initially (at least that´s what the chiefpilot reiterated two days ago at the captains´meeting) - because 2009 will see downsizing at DLH mainline and result in a surplus of several hundered pilots.
This has several effects:
- It quiets the mainline folks, at least for a while.
- No need to train the pilots to "Lufthansa Standards"
- No need to pay the surplus pilots for not flying
- Takes their focus off the scope clause issue (EMB 195) and some new "arguments" into mgmts hands

Seems like a "win-win" situation within DLH mainline currently, whereas I´m sure that as soon as the airline is established in MXP (by motivated DLH mainliners), the AOC is Italian and the pilots´surplus is resolved, "fresh" folks on DLH Italia contracts without mainline T&Cs will be employed.

Chief pilot also stated that the future of DLH Italia also very much depends on the development of Alitalia.

To the other German pilots boring the rest of the profession with their embarrassing rantings:
Please go back to the German forum already mentioned or even better - get a life and start to move on.

Cheers

Interesting that DLH pilots get this info only this week, it was told to colleagues from all other german airlines allready a week ago by Mr. Lauer, i'm sure you know him at least by name.

Dear Dent
("i" left out intentionally - just couldn´t resist),

maybe it escaped you that the verb "reiterate" was used in the aforementioned post and context.
Or maybe you just don´t know the meaning of the verb at all.

I was trying to get some information across to the person that started this thread and used the very recent statement by the chief pilot to emphasise the info.
Nothing more, nothing less.

What you on the other hand were trying to convey, I still do not understand.

Nuff said!
Have a nice Sunday everyone.

Well said busdriver ( I left out the wonder intentionally).
You are a real Lufthansa Pilot. Gods gift to aviation. No doubt. :ok:

Bon pomeriggio

Lufthansa Italia could be a great opportunity for german aviation. :O

Nowhere else in this world have i seen a society consumed with envy to such an extent, exept germany. Any improvement or gain for other persons is seen as unjustified or somehow wrong. :*

When i first came to Germany years ago, people were making jokes about germans moving at night, so the neighbours dont envy them because of better furniture. Today i believe this was not ment as a joke. :}

As in every group of humans, also a company employing about 4500 pilots has its fare share of A$$hole$. ;)

But its a little bit like flying floatplanes. There are pilots who have flipped a plane over and there are pilots who will flip a plane over some day. In Germany you have got pilots who have tried to get employed by DLH and pilots who did not get employed by DLH. :{

The second group will get employed someday somewhere if they keep trying, but for the rest of their career, they carry a stigma in their soul. " Not DLR Qualified" Some get over fast, some never. As a result of this any argument of a DLH pilot is immediately arrogant, egoistic, elitist or somehow wrong.:ugh:it must be wrong, just by guts feeling these guys have it too good and therefore dont have the right to argue.

It would be great if our Italian collagues would teach some dolce vita con rilassato as intercultural exchange.

besides the food is better...

Ciao ragazzi

L

Back to topic, though I agree with warmkiter's post....

My 2 cents are that the whole project will not work.

Why?

Yes, the Italian Passengers like Lufthansa, BUT there are many forces who will block the project up to the subject of sabotage 'cause it will take money out of the Italian Market.

Think about it.....

warmkiter, its simple as that, who is in LH uses always the same phrase "you have to get over it one day" and who failed usualy says "if I see the arrogance of LH pilots I dont want to be one of them" even people like busdriver gives the impression that this is right for a lot of the LH pilots, I have a few friends in there where I can see that we are all in the same boat.
I made my carrere elsewhere and I am very happy with it and I learned the dolce vita and I still like it and the food and.....the girls :O


So on the topic:
I think that it will work, the "New Alitalia" project has about the worse start one can imagine, plus they are leaving MXP to LH. From Jan. there will be almost no more flights from MXP. So as I see it, the 6 a/c from feb. are just the beginning, I wouldnt be surprised if we see long haul flights from Lufthansa Italia (or what ever) from MXP within 1-2 years.

A few days ago a ital. TV channel asked passengers who they would prefer as partner of the "New Alitalia" about 80% wanted LH instead of AF. Everytime I go home, the flights are full of italians, because LH has a good reputation in Italy and a lot of people travel with LH.

It is a good step by LH to put MXP as a 3th hub, we will see at the end in which way they will be able to do it.

a friend of mine has received an email from lhi stating that recruitment for italian pilots and flight attendant would start during 2009

No worries dear DLH-colleagues,

How's this for a management fantasy :

"Hey listen ; how about if we set up an airline in Northern Italy , in our own standardised , punctual and reliable Lufthansa way and then once the system is running.....we'll leave it to welll erm , the...erm......Italians.....?"

Mayrhuber will be very very sorry.

about what?

LHI will be an ITALIAN airline as soon as they have the ITALIAN AOC

LHI airplane will have ITALIAN registration mark,the airplanes will be ITALIAN

But the company will still be owened by GERMANS and the standarts will still be set by GERMANS and the money still comes from the GERMANS.
And the A319 is not ITALIAN, its GERMAN, because its build in Hamburg:p

As soon as they have an italian AOC they will start to hire non LH pilots, that doesnt mean they will hire italians :cool:

Also Air Dolomiti is owned 100% by lufthansa,but pilots in air dolomiti are italians and non-lufthansa

i tell you why the agreement between LH and german pilots union isn't valid for airdolomiti
because en is an ITALIAN airline,owned by lh but non a german airline

if you read the email lufthansa italia has sended to pilots you would probably change your so firm opinion....:ok:
i'm sorry you cannot read out that,and i'm so sorry you couldn't know that is written in italian language

Not just German or Italian crews it would seem.

bmi are WET leasing 2 aircraft to LHi. As far as I am aware, these will be operating the LHR - MXP and LHR - TXL. These will also be code shared flights.

I don't have an interest in this job but I know that if I were an Italian citizen and I was flying on Lufthansa Italia as a passenger I would be upset if Italians were not given the option to fly those airplanes. It is understandable if it is Lufthansa vs. Lufthansa Italia - but that is just my opinion.

What is happening with the Air Dolomiti E190s? Will Air Dolomiti still operate 5+ E190s out of MXP or will the Lufthansa pilots claim those as well? Any update?

@AFD you are misunderstanding, I said the company is OWNED by germans, I didnt realy talk about the pilots and it is exactly as you say, EN is OWNED by LH and the pilots are italian, because EN was there before, it just got bought by LH

@oppure, so the italian passangers give the money for the start up??? Are you sure or what do you think were the money comes from in the first year and to by the a/c and to set up the routs etc, etc? The money comes from LH and They invest to make money in italy, because AZ is not able to do so!
I dont think they make a lot of profit in the first 6-10 month

@AFD apparte di questo, io parlo italiano e anche tedesco:p

Dear Italian Collegues,

I am sure Lufthansa Italia would find highly motivated, highly trained and very good pilots for the cockpits with LHI in Italy.

But please understand: We (most pilots of Lufthansa) are VERY concerned about the developments in our company and the style, with which the management is solving the tasks of the future not with us, but against us.

Growth is happening everywhere around Lufthansa (Aerologic, Air Dolomity, LH Regional and LH Italy) but not within our company. LH mainline is shrinking, and Condor (formerly a Lufthansa owned tourist carrier operated by LH pilots) is not part of our career scheme anymore.
And more, the company is putting a lot of pressure on us with taking our collegues at Cityline "hostage" and trying to force us to accept the operation of the new EMB with reduced sallary packages to save their jobs.
We are talking about nearly 2.000 highly payed jobs in the cockpits in Germany at stake.

So please respect the fact, that most LH-pilots will try their best, to save their jobs and future perspectives, and cannot support the idea of a new 100% LH Airline in LH colours not operating with their personell.

Best Regards

Charly

There's already an airline fully owned by lh,is air dolomiti and his planes are flown by italian pilots at the moment

it's right that you defend your jobs,but you should understand that we want to defend our country,and the job developed in our country should be produced with a positive contribute of italian workers

EN is a different thing, because its less 100 seats a/c ( or whatever is written in the contract), you should inform yourself AFD.
Even I would maybe get a job on this, I absolutly understand the LH pilots and support their action. It is absolutly wrong if guys from the LH school are swimming in the pool, while people from outside are getting hired on the A320.

Appart from the fact that the LH jobs are not highly paid as Charly says. Most italian airlines pay more than LH.

Appart from the fact that the LH jobs are not highly paid as Charly says. Most italian airlines pay more than LH.

Might be, EAM. But I am talking about conditions in Germany, LH and Lufthansa Italy. IF LHI is paying more to it's going-to-be italian pilots than the german scheme: Perfect! Another well paid pilotgroup in Europe (should be our main goal as global thinking pilots anyhow, shouldn't it?).
But i am afraid this is not going to happen in this case. Lufthansa is perfectly aware of the italian job situation and will draw maximum benefit out of it..

@Iver: response to PM on the way the next days

@oppure: thanks for understanding

Charly, I am completly with you, the main reason why italian pilots get more money than LH is because we pay less tax in italy.

I still hope that there will be a chance to join LHITA late this year, but of course you have all my support to protect your job and right.

At the end LH makes money with YOUR name and standart.

Viel Glück dabei.:ok:

@ EAM
Well, to clarify things:
The contract states that it is applicable to all operations
- under the Lufthansa brand and
- with 70 seats or more and
- by companies that LH owns the majority of

Air Dolomiti is 100% owned by LH, BAe146 have more than 70 seats, but they operate as "Air Dolomiti" and have their own livery. This is OK by the contract.
LH Cityline is 100% owned by LH, operate as LH, but less than 70 seats (There was an amendment to the contracts in 1994 for the Avro and another in 2006 for the CRJ 900). This is also OK.
Eurowings operate as LH, have more than 70 seats in the BAe146 and the soon to be delivered CRJ 900, but LH stake is just under 50% (guess why). This is also OK.

Other operations are limited to 6% of the total seat kilometers offered.

So please be a little more careful, EAM, when you call on others to inform themselves, and follow up with more than only wild speculation that proves you only seem to have a vague idea about the topic yourself.



@AFD
You do not need to defend your country, it is not under attack. However, do you really want to go back to protectionism?
The EU has created a single market. I can buy a Fiat in Germany that German workers had little chance to contribute to. Italian pilots can apply to LH and will be employed it they meet the requirements (and can even sue if the single reason are not employed is that they are Italian).
As pilots, we are the main beneficiaries of the single marked that creates a lot of need for transportation!

Reimers, it was just a brief information regarding about what AFD wrote,who things that LHITA and EN are the same case.
I know that there is a difference if flying with LH colours or other colours, like SWISS is doing. But I wasnt sure about the number of seats, as I said. But you made it quite clear.

And oppure is absolutly right, that you need to know german to enter in LH, more over you need to pay some money to have your school degrees accepted by an official office in Berlin.
Same applies for some other german airlines, so its is far easier and more up to date to join an italian airline, who are regarding to international pilots are well ahead of the german airlines.

Yes, a good command of German is required to join LH. This creates a hurdle for a lot of people from abroad, just the same as in most nations, the exception being english speaking countries that are easier to get into as everyone has to speak english in the first place.

Please note that LH can hire anyone they like to fly their planes, the contract only states the terms and conditions that are applicable. If LH creates a requirement that Milano-based pilots need to speak italian few LH pilots will get to fly from there, and MXP-BCN is not a traditional LH route. We just fear that slowly all routes from Germany to Italy will be flown by LH Italy if they pay less. For instance, Air Dolomiti have flown MUC-NUE and MUC-STR in the past, with none of the crew speaking any German on these services within Germany.



jstflyin
In the past, LH Cargo, Condor Berlin, Germanwings and the new Condor that was created to fly the 757/767 in the early 90ies were merged into the contract. Also, deals were done to enable Cityline to operate the Avros and the CRJ 900. There were talks about including Cityline last summer, but they failed. LH seems to fear the larger groups because of their power, and prefers to have seperate alternatives with similar operations (Augsburg Airways, Contactair, Eurowings).

Just tell me please, would it be possible a non Italianspeaking pilot got a job say for instance at Alitalia?:ugh: Do we not hear Italian as most spoken language in Italien airspace?:*
By the way: All LH-Cockpit and LH-Cabincrew at LHI do speak Italian.:mad:

Lufthansa cargo
 

Lufthansa germann pilots are already flying in italy from mxp to jfk and ord .........sooo , some italian pilot seat is already taken .
All this new airline coming to mxp are really welcome , but if there is not chance to get jobs for us (italian ) is a big problem

@m.s.r.l.p Only because LH Crago flies out of MXP to ORD doesnt mean that these are "italian jobs", CRG flew MUC-DXB, but we didnt say that these are "german jobs" and as Reimers already mentioned, EN is flying within germany and also between germany and austria, so italian pilots are already doing the german job.

@dutch flyer I think in the last 5-8 years not many pilots have been hired by Alitalia, so its a bit difficult to compare this, but there are non italian speaking pilots in AZ, anyway, that doesnt mean that they dont learn the language in the years that they are flying in italy.

For the rest, well all other airlines are full of non italian pilots, a lot of them didnt speak italian when they came to italy, most, like me, learned the language and some are just too ignorant, but almost all of us enjoy flying here.

If new, companies are coming to italy and to MXP, very well.
Everyone is welcome. If it is like in LH now, that it will be operated by LH crews only, well never mind, but if the company sets up a new company with new crews, very well, italy is a damn good place to work and live.

And let me add this, in italy our job as a much better reputation than in germany and other countries and its not only about "the comandante", its also how crews of different companies threat each other.

Only in italy and spain you come over to the a/c and ask for a jump.........without any ticket. Try that in germany or the UK.

Why do you waste so much time talking when i've already told you that lhi is sending to the applying pilots an email stating they'll start to screen and hire italian pilots during 2009?

We do enjoy communicating, a trait many of us have, having been selected by our employers for a job that requires good communication skills. Don't you enjoy a heated debate? Why stick abound then, lecturing us?

i've been misunderstood or more probably i've explained not well what i meant ho say
I wanted to say that maybe is not so useful to continue saying that only lh pilot will fly lhi planes when lh has already stated that this is not true,infact they have sent an email advising they will screen and hire italian pilots this year

I absolutly agree with Reimers, we just enjoy communicating, that is one reason why this form is so popular. In addition, the email by LHITA is actualy worth nothing, I have alredy been selected by EN to start on the A320 in feb. when the whole project with EN has been stopped.
So only belive it when you sit in the a/c and request start up to BCN. :}

Forget the language..... under the Lufthansa banner all pilots will have to have passed the DLR test in Hamburg - right? which is nothing less than a lottery. Im referring solely to the 9 clock test - give it a go at 1.3sec exposure with 4 numbers missing at 'skytest de' - to pass you need roughly 3 of 4 answers correct each time. Failing the test is a fail for life. And dont invest in these rip off training companies - the cd is all you need to practise the test from skytest. Many experienced airline pilots and captains have failed it. Indeed, my money would also be on most of Lufthansa pilots failing if they were to do a random retake - tests like the clock test are nothing but luck - you either perform at the right moment or you dont

Good luck

You are a bit wrong on this, because pilots will not be hired in LH, they would be hired in LHITA and there should be a test just for LHITA. We will see, but there should be something different.
Anyway, I passed the DLR test, some hundred years ago :p

Ok, I see your point.... but if the LH conglomerate expands much more and DLR remains a requirement, (like it does with Augsburg, CityLine....and many others), may the peace be with us all who have not passed DLR. I admit, it's a great way of controlling pilot surplus bt it would be nice to do these silly tests prior to spending 1000s of euros on flying training. (I admit to being a little bitter about DLR so I apologise in advance.....)

I guess there will be a kind of DLR also for LHITA, but as for Augsburg and Contact, this test will be different from the LH one.

But if you see what BA, CX, CV or EK are doing, same !!!!, just different tests.

We (EN) already had crew trained for the A319. We hired the ground staff for the base in MXP. Than LH decided that our pilots haven't LH standards. So they asked to EN just the cabin crew (several awards winners). Our CEO replay: no thanks.
fortunatelly we didn't have the same standards that LH has....

........disregard......

@EAM
EN is not involved in The email i'm talking about,this email has been received from a lh italian personnel direction office account
The email says nothing about EN while instead it refers to scala project and and lh willing to self-produce the whole screening and hiring process by a lh italia own personnel department

Ok AFD so lets start a little from the beginning.
The MXP scala project started about 2 years ago, it was planned to operated EMB 170 (I think) out of MXP by EN.
Last year they changed the a/c from EMB to A319, still in LH colours, still operated by EN. In september EN selected pilots for the A319 base MXP and trained some of their pilots to the A319, some already took houses near MXP, when somewhere in October the whole thing was stopped.
A/C are operated by LH crews now.

Now LH wants to create a company called LH Italia with an italian AOC to operate this flights and they want to hire their own pilots (italian, german, EU what ever), so far is correct, BUT the whole thing still means, a/c with more than 70 seats in LH colours on LH routes operated by non LH pilots, which as we know is not according to the LH contract.

So nothing so far has changed from the EN project to the LHITA project.
It has been stopped once, it could be stopped a 2. time.