KLM
 

Mjellow.

Does anyone have any information on KLM regarding recruitment, qualifications, minimum experience,...

And how to apply?

First, check and double check if you have attended the right kindergarten.
:)

(ok seriously, at the moment you can only apply if you are ex-Dutch airforce, navy, NLS, KLS, or ab initio of a small number of Dutch flightschools)

Is that legal from an equality point of view? Is there not some EU directive or law that would prevent these kind of practices from happening?

Even if it is legal, I am disappointed that a company like KLM uses a system like this. Seems to me like you may just end up with too many people who are alike and think alike. Not unlike a small gene pool. A bit of fresh blood never hurts.

Hmmm...

I guess I'll have to ask this question again then in about 3/4 years time from now when the economy is in full swing and they can't get their quota filled by their "approved schools" :rolleyes:
Was hoping to get in asap though with the old seniority kicking me back to bottom of the line. Thanks for the replies nonetheless.

Ok here we go:

recruitment:

they only take low timers from the KLM Flight Academy when they need.
Also NLS, Martinair school and EPST were invited to be selected to undergo their Compressed Bridge Course (+12k) and then could get an interview.
Only a few made it.

qualifications:

So like above, or when times are good: 1000+ hours commercial flying.
Also, you have to have KLS, NLS background.

So in 99%, KLM only hires ex KLM FA.

They say the long way in is to become instructor at KLM FA and after some years you can get in.
It's not nice, but also not illegal, since they can claim to have enough new students coming from the KLM FA.
And the people that invented this form of malpractice, are the ones hired in the past with non KLM FA on they CV!

I heard many stories from insiders there that it is going to change but I am hearing this for years now.

But there is a difference. I can apply to BA, Lufthansa, Air France.. they don't care too much where I did my training ten years ago, they rightly care about what I do now.

"It's not nice, but also not illegal"

There will be many legal experts attacking this point of view. As European company you can't select people with equal European qualifications (JAA) purely based on their followed initial flight school.

These things would maybe happen in certain developing countries. But in Holland, apparently also by the blue heron :D. Other flag carriers in Europe are way more mature with equal opportunity.

They only hire you if you did the TOP GUN school KLS, NLS. Because thats the best school in the world(not).

But if they are so good why do KLM pilots transmit on 121,5 all the time to call up dispatch or engineering? a lot off idiots there at KLM i do not want to work there. By the way i can not work there because i do not have Dockers Jeans so i will not match with them on layovers!

PENKO, I agree. Air France advertises in Flight Intl for pilots, Lufthansa and BA take pilots regardless of where they did their training. For these carriers(and I am sure many of the other so called Flag Carriers) it is about the present and what you can bring to the table now. The way it should be. By all means reject people for not liking their flight experience, their attitude or their personality. Don’t do it the KLM and not even invite you for an interview if you haven’t got the right training credentials. It is not just silly, it reeks of an arrogance, and I wouldn't have thought this attitude was still prevalent today in certain companies.

Nice insular world you create this way. Having said that, I think you need to let go of your issues a bit there, Babemagnet :) You'll enjoy life more, I promise.

It surely does not matter who a carrier is willing or not willing to interview…
Only whom they are willing or not willing to hire.

I once called them to inquire about their recruitment, and the first question I got was: "did you go to the KLM Flight academy" to which I replied: "No, I went to a a FAR better one, the BELGIAN AVIATION SCHOOL (now Sabena Aviation Academy)".
The woman hung up the phone...:E

Sjeez, here we go again,

For some reason KLM's hiring practices always seem a topic of discussion and unfair compared to other major european flag carriers.

The current hiring practices are unfair, however, KFA is wholly owned by KLM. Of course they would go there first for newhire pilots. It's a major selling point to actract new students ( I would think that this is no different than LH when it comes to their flight school) When they still require students above what KFA can supply they go to different flight schools. They do have a preference for ab initio trained pilots (beats the hell out of me why) instead of high time pilots.

In the past the have hired high time pilots of the street ( I am one of them) however, current managment doesn't do that. Once again I do not support that.

But to suggest that the other major European flag carriers are more fair is RIDICULOUS. I think KLM is the ONLY carrier that hires non dutch nationals that are not fluent in the dutch language. LH, AF, IB, AZ etc, You will not get hired there unless you are fluent in the national language (please, give me one example to prove me wrong) most of those airlines have the entire selection proces in the national language. KLM only requires that you learn the dutch language within a given period, witch has never been enforced. NO pilot has EVER been fired for not knowing the language!!!!!!!

Please, give me one example of LH, AF, IB or AZ where a pilot got hired that wasn't fluent in the national language ( I won't mention BA because everybody is supposed to be fluent in english).

At the moment KLM prefers AI new hires (once again I don't know why, and I don't approve) They go to KFA, once again, why not? it is their own flight school, but lately? KFA has not been able to supply enough pilots and they have looked to other flight schools. One of those flight schools is for example Oxford.

So their only difference is they prefer AI above high time, it's a mentality, other MEFC prefer high time instead of AI. are they discriminatory???

It's a current practice, in the past KLM has hired pilots from all over the world. I don't have the numbers to back it up but I would dare to go out on a limb and claim that KLM ( besides BA and perhaps LH) is the major European flag carrier that has relatively the most non national pilots than any other MEFC, We have pilots from the US, CAN, AUS and various other european
countries. Can AF, IB, AZ claim the same?

So, in closing, I would like to ask any of the people on this thread complaining about KLM hiring practices if they have been able to get hired at LH, AF, IB or AZ! probably not because they didn't speak the national language!!! Is that not discriminatory, however, I read very little complaining about that!!!

P.S. About the dockers paints, dude, get a life!!!!

This is not correct, from September 2006 ALL new hires to KLM must be fluent to level B1 european standard in the Dutch language (If you doubt me Flyburg then check the CLA!). Only the ex UK pilots who were successful at the selection were given the exception (and i quote) "must be fluent to Level B1 european standard before accepting their next function in the KLM".

KLM's hiring practices are BLATANTLY illegal, the way the UK pilots were treated was pure discrimination.

Still the French are marching their way here ;-)

Well Blue pilot,

Please point out the chapter in the CLA where it states that pilots have to be fluent in the dutch language. It isn't there.

However, A recent change in the part A, specifically states that conversation in the cockpit shall be in dutch or ENGLISH!!!!!

give me a second and I'll look it up.

BTW, I don't even know what B1 european dutch standard is??

It was a change bought about by whining 737 captains complaining about having to speak english all day when flying with certain ex UK first officers, it is dated september 2006 and ratified by the VNV, perhaps you can find it on the VNV website in the archives.

The fact is that to join KLM now you must have been trained by KLS NLS or the Dutch military AND speak Dutch to Level B1 standard. These practices are illegal and protectionary.

KLM may be a great employer when on the inside, but their practices are far from fair. They took over Airuk within the D and K accord agreed that effectivly all the Airuk jobs over time would be transferred to Holland (KLCuk could not hire any more pilots). so in effect 250 UK jobs have been transferred to holland. Now apart from the ex UK guys can you give me an example of a NON Dutch National that has been employed by KLM in the last 5 years? Probably not, there are in fact a very few Belgian nationals who went through KLS but that is about it. So in reality 250 UK pilots have lost their jobs and 250 Dutch nationals have gained by this practice.

KLM is discriminatory through and through, this practice was bought about by the very right wing ex DFO E D H.

Ohhh men, It's turning into another KLM UK debate.

Anyways here is the text from the BOM

Either the English or the Dutch language may be used as the common language for communication on the flight deck and between crewmembers during line operations. When crew composition so dictates the English language shall be used
BOM 8.3.1.1

The case you talk about is of one specific individual, well known in the entire company for being a giant a$$hole, he refused to fly with one ex UK guy that you forget to mention is also known for being extremely lazy. Nevertheless the captain in case got into more trouble that the UK guy and as a result the BOM was CHANGED. You forgot to mention that.

Further more, If you read my posts in the past, you know I didnt agree with the KLM UK situation, but can you give me an example of any former UK guys getting hired with AF, IB, LH or AZ or even BA

I would still like to see any specific reference to the article in the CLA where it states that new hires have to be fluent in, what did you call it, BI european dutch standard.

you will not find this reference in the BOM (to outsiders thats the Basic Operation Manual!! not an explosive device ;-)) . Fluency in european langauges are divided into levels I.E B1.B2 etc

See here Common European Framework of Reference for Languages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It was agreed with the VNV in 2006 that the entry requirement to KLM would be fluency in level B1 Dutch.

quote: Further more, If you read my posts in the past, you know I didnt agree with the KLM UK situation, but can you give me an example of any former UK guys getting hired with AF, IB, LH or AZ or even BA


what a rediculous statement! the KLM uk (read AirUK) pilots were EMPLOYED by KLM not AF, IB, LH or AZ . However some have joined BA.

I would be very suprised if that that was a deal made with the VNV as they generaly don't get involved with the hiring practices but I will enquire tomorrow.

But please answer my question, did any of your buddies get hired with say LH, IB, AF and if not, what was the major reason?

It is not a ridiculous statement, it goes to show that all the other MEFC have their peculiars as well when it comes to hiring practices.

AF for example, I have never seen a advertisemt for pilots in the past, just recently they have hired so many people that they have gone outside. It's really rare.

But still they have the requirment for french fluency, why don't you complain about that.

After all, the aviation language is english!!!!

same goes for LH, IB

My Flyberg I was answering your post saying that KLM do not have any discrimination when it comes to recruitment. The fact is they are WORSE that IB AF LH etc because they not only have a language requirement (this you will find me correct on) BUT they also state where you must have obtained your qualifications which MUST be of DUTCH origin!! THAT IS ILLEGAL!!! why do you not see that?? Are you so brainwashed by the wonderful "blue" you cannot see what it does to outsiders?

The reason that no ex uk pilots fly for IB AF etc is that none applied! This does not detract from the fact that KLM is discriminatory and that is illegal and if they had been treated fairly would still be employed by KLM!!

You havent answered my question....how many non dutch nationals have been hired in the past 5 years apart from the ex UK guys of which they took 12 :rolleyes: (nearly 700 pilots have been hired in the last 5 years!!)

Your gripe is more with the KLM uk situation, I already stated I didn't agree with that, but aside from that, how are KLM's hiring practices any different from the other MEFC. ( besides BA, but I'm pretty sure you would never pass their interview process if you couldn't convers fluently in Englisch, exluding many Italian, french, spanish pilots, btw, how many pilots from those countries are working for BA)

I do not have a gripe, just want the FACTS to be known.

Many non british pilots from Europe work for BA, in fact many Dutch nationals work there ......... reason? not trained by the KLS NLS or Dutch military therefore sub standard to KLM and cannot apply to their own flag carrier :rolleyes:

I didn't realise it was a question, but KLM probably has not hired any non citizen. This has to do with the fact that they take their newhires from the KFA. Sofar they have been able to keep up with the demand. However to go to the KFA you don't have to be dutch...The school is open for every one.

Once again, I ask you if you find the hiring pratices of the other MEFC less discriminatory when it comes to the language requirments???

The big difference is that, while I'm fluent in Dutch and have VG English and French, I (training at SFA) can apply as an ab-initio and have a fair chance with AF, BA, LH (if I learned german), but never with the KLM, because no KLS/NLS/KLu training, no interview. The point is that you don't even get a chance to apply. With LH or AF, you learn the language and can apply with any JAA license, fair chance for everyone. With KLM, even though my training is pretty much comparable (KLS even trains its students with us (SATC) in Phoenix in the same programme), I don't have a fair chance, in fact I don't have any chance.

edit: and I think learning a language of a certain flag carrier is no big deal compared to just having no chance because of your FTO choice. It doesnt seem abnormal to me that, for Air France, you have to speak French.

quote flyburg:

But to suggest that the other major European flag carriers are more fair is RIDICULOUS. I think KLM is the ONLY carrier that hires non dutch nationals that are not fluent in the dutch language. LH, AF, IB, AZ etc, You will not get hired there unless you are fluent in the national language (please, give me one example to prove me wrong) most of those airlines have the entire selection proces in the national language. KLM only requires that you learn the dutch language within a given period, witch has never been enforced. NO pilot has EVER been fired for not knowing the language!!!!!!!

Please, give me one example of LH, AF, IB or AZ where a pilot got hired that wasn't fluent in the national language ( I won't mention BA because everybody is supposed to be fluent in english).

My point was that you are WRONG when it comes to language, you are WRONG because KLM has not hired non Dutch nationals for over 5 years (with the few exceptions of the ex uk pilots), the other flag carriers are not right either, but dont protect KLM on the grounds that you did because that ground does not exist! KLM is worse than these other airlines (and they are not good!) because of recruiting from sole dutch establishments. This is against european law! if you are qualified for the position (i e hold a JAA state license) then you MUST be able to apply. The way around the EU law is to make the language (B1 Dutch B1 French, German etc) an entry requirement, IB AF LH etc to not break the law, KLM does.

Okay mister Blue pilot,

You have edited your post #21. You state that now the training must be of dutch origin....................pfew that's the first I heard of that.

This board is great for promulgating information, I just can't keep up witch you. You win.. I think... and I now support a hiring ban for KLM.

They are clearly the evil of the airline industrie...

I declare..al dutch piloits are evil (evil I say)
All dutch pilots are out to screw former UK pilots
all dutch pilots are out to screw non language speaking pilots

All other major European flag carriers are excamples of how to treat non national speaking earopean citizens.

I'm going to bed,

slaap lekker

:rolleyes:pathetic

ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I tend to agree with bluepilot.

I am 25 years old. 2500+ hours on medium jets. Born and raised in the Netherlands.
I can apply at any European flagcarrier provided I speak the language. However I can't apply to KLM because I didn't go to the right flighschool six years ago.
Try to explain to people why BA, LH or AF would have me but KLM won't!

I am not desperate to work in Holland but if I ever would be, KLM would be the only real option. Since I am excluded from applying at KLM I basically had to kiss Holland goodbye.

Why didn't you train at the KFA?

Good question. It was too expensive and at that time KLM wasn't hiring. Also historically 500h multi-engine would make you eligible to apply.

If I would have known I might have considered it.

Open Des,

You can apply to KLM, they just won't give you an interview at the moment, because they have enough students leaving their own flight academy. As little as two years ago KLM did hire pilots such as yourself as direct entry captains on the F50, which could have gotten you onto the mainline senority list. You kissing Holland goodbye is your own choice, Martinair and Transavia are both fine companies.

You and I might not agree with KLM's preference for ab initio pilots from KLS, but nothing here has convinced me that it is illegal.

you are correct Longhaul, direct entry captains were employed a few years ago BUT they had to have been trained by KLS or NLS :rolleyes:. Many of those employed came from the likes of Denim Air and were trained by the NLS.

What is illegal is that if you have a vacancy for a job under european law you MUST accept applications from qualified candidates from within the EU. You can specify a language requirement (as LH AF and IB do).

Over the past five years the only candidates who can apply to KLM are those trained by KLS NLS or the Dutch military.

If you look at the KFA website under "minimum requirements" it already states that you have to be fluent in the Dutch language. It is funny that the website of KFA is only available in Dutch without the option to read it in English (KLM FLIGHT ACADEMY) So basically, KLM expects you to learn Dutch before you can even read their training website, very clever!!!! If you go to for example Lufthansa Flight Training the website is in English with the option to read it in German (www.lufthansa-flight-training.com).

I am Dutch, non KFA trained and one of many foreign nationalities flying for BA........and HAPPY. It is nice to have colleagues with a different background like ab-initios, regionals, low cost and military. No need to be painted in the colours of the Union Flag!!

KLM
 

Hello,

Almost 3 years later, does any of you have some more information regarding KLM recruitment process ?

Considering the fact that I have both french and dutch passports, I'm wondering if I'll be able to apply for KLM in the coming months (years?) given that I don't come from KLS nor NLS but from a french flight academy ?

Thx :)

Assuming you would graduate from the KLS today you would have 350+ graduates in front of you in the holding pool. Only after that has cleared other schools might be considered... :ugh:

There also might be a few Martinair guys standing in your way as well. And then there's the issue of production ratios with AF. Will the addition of the Martinair airframes to KLM's fleet count as an expansion or are they already included in KLM's allotted quota? If they count as an expansion, KLM won't be expanding for a while yet.

CA - I wouldn't count on being recruited by KLM but stranger things have happened. Just ask the Dutch kids who went to OATS. As ever, it's a supply and demand issue. But one thing is for sure, once you are in is probably one of the best places to be. I know, I can't go any further into the house than the kitchen.

PM