Living abroad
 

Hi Everyone,

I have finally landed that dream Long-haul job and now that I am only flying 3 possibly 4 trips a month, both myself and my wife very much want to move abroad and hopefully escape the strangle hold of UK living.

All I wanted was some advice really. The places to move to, the places not to, the hang ups and the benefits...

Obviously the biggest is the tax exemption leading to a much better quality of life but any others would be most welcome. I don’t want to commute further than about 1hr 30mins, so come on everyone... Those of you that have taken the plunge... Where have you gone and why?

Many thanks, all input would be great appreciated...

FL :ok:

:hmm:

In the great land mass that represents the UK there are not many overseas destinations that lie one and a half hours' commute door to door. There are a few more that fall within your time scale on an airport to airport basis.
If you are searching for a tax base then you really can't surely cast your eyes further afield than the Channel Islands. But your problem here may be the initial very high cost of property. In case you don't know, you would have to buy or rent on what the Donkeys or Les Grenouilles call the 'Open' market. Property protectionism at its most refined!
In any event, if your work base is within the UK, which you omit to state, the likelihood is that HMRC would do you for UK income tax anyway, since, presumably, your salary would be paid there, at your place of habitual employment.
No doubt further details from you would ellicit greater and more authoritative information from others. Does, for instance, the cream long haul job allow you to base in a long haul (from the UK) country and operate from there?
More information = more wonderful advice from the fount of all knowledge who is never wrong even when he is mildly mistaken.:D

Commuting, especially aerial commuting, is cumbersome and stressful; but more importantly, it eats up your free time. Especially when you have to position to your base in time for an early morning departure and spend money for hotels. It's more peace of mind just to pay your tax and live where you work. :ooh:

:hmm:

In general I would agree with that. The exception of course is Britain which is so ghastly as to be worth the effort.:yuk:

Even if you do live outside the UK, unless you live in Monaco or Andorra, yo will still be liable for income tax somewhere. I believe France has a fairly low tax rate for resident foreign based pilots. I gather that all other EU countries actually levy a higher rate of tax than the UK. Good luck in your search.

Thanks everyone... All good stuff...

Aone live Geneva area or south of france both Toulouse areas and Nice areas... Would love to here about these inparticularly...
FL

I read last week in an english publication whilst on holiday in France, that Sarkozy is closing the tax benefit loop for foreign pilots living in France.

I gather that the new UK-France tax treaty has been ratified and now just needs to go through parliament. I think that the devil is in the detail. The HMRC website has the details.

Have a look at
Tax officials deny claims that UK-French double tax treaty is to be scrapped from FrenchEntrée.com
NDS - News Distribution Service
UK/France Tax Treaty signed
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/international/france.pdf

There are infestations of a v large British airline's pilots clustered around Nice (many), Toulouse, Bordeaux, some Paris, Barcelona/Alicante/Malaga. They do not seem to be unduly alarmed having seen more than one onslaught come to naught.

It should not put you off your idea, but it may be an idea not to let taxation rule your life and where to live. We will inevitably one day end up in a unified and taxed Euro-conglomeration. By all means make hay while the sun shines, but do not expect it to last forever. Foreign residency is a big step, and they make sure you DO cut your links if you are going to throw off the tax yoke, and they WILL examine you with a microscope. It is a major negative in life.

Me- I'd go to the Nice area. This could seriously be the most beautiful place on Earth! Every time I fly in or out, I can't help thinking it's wasted on the French! They've got too much like that- we should invade!

- be careful - there is a certain minimum standard of English required to live abroad:ugh:

dlying_lawnmower
 

We moved out of the UK a few years back...some of the folks here have made some very pertinent observations.

Tax - situation may change wherever you go for better or worse - don't move just because of the Tax situaion.

Commuting - I second cavorting Glueballs comments about it eating up your spare time. Commute to/from somewhere which is served from your base airport and has a high frequency of flights. As an example if you are LHR based Nice makes lots of sense but Toulouse doesn't.

Finally living somewhere full time is not the same as going there on holiday. France is wonderful if you are not trying to get stuff done in a hurry, in fact it often best not to do anything at all....but you don't find that out until you actually live there.

Then again, I've just spent a couple of days in the Pyrennees, along with 100,000s of other nutters, waiting for 150 odd lycra clad idiots peddle up a couple of mountains. Scenery to die for, a hangover I nearly died from, thanks to some Basque supporters, and nobody stops you painting slogans on the road - in fact if you ask nicely the rather nice lady Gendarme :E will make sure you don't get run over while you are painting. T'would never happen in the UK so on balance it's a :ok: from me...but the commutes still a b***r

Dont forget the "keep the little wife happy" program.
 

Either your wife will love Southern France or she will leave ( you too), so start the exercise by forgetting tax and concentrate on quality of life. If you have any doubts if she is up to it - stay where you can be with her most frequently. If you belong to the 20% minority of pilots who actually married a girl who can put up with our way of life long term - GO,GO,GO and learn French asap. And never whine about her spending too much in LaFayette ( she will) while you do what mortals think is work.
Wx and connections are better in Nice, but TLS and Western France has a lot of charm.
We never looked back after moving there.

I've lived out the UK for 12 years - not in aviation just a customer - and I have seen many people fail at living abroad for the reasons the last poster gives.

It doesn't matter what job the main breadwinner does (got to be PC, don't assume it's the husband, although it usually is), the partner gets all the problems. He's off at work, no worries, while she's maybe given up a job to go there, maybe got kids trying to settle into a new school where they don't understand the language. In Asia particularly, the expat wives' societies can make or break it, if the mrs cannot get into the circle, she's stuffed. In Jakarta, we had the British Wives Association, the BWA, aka Bitches, Witches and Alcoholics and many many times they just didn't like the new girl on the block and she had no friends. So much pressure on the husband to go home. This may not apply in France, but in my experience - I have some friends who have retired to La Touraine - there are quite a few Brits wherever you go and she will have to be able to mix in with them while you're off in the wide blue yonder.

Tax has to be your last reason for going. Quality of life should be your only consideration, and you have to be prepared to put in a lot of work initially.

And here I am, thinking about moving TO the UK.............

Flying lawnmower

Life in the UK is what you make it,if you believe all that's written in the papers or broadcast over the airwaves you could well believe we live in a hell hole,the reality is that on the whole compared with many parts of the world we don't have it that bad.

I've travelled fairly extensively and I can't say there are many other places around the world that I find hugely better.

There is a light on the horizon in that we only have to wait until 2010 in order to be rid of the biggest problem facing the UK at the present time ie the Labour Government, in my opinion one of the worst governments this country has had to suffer in over 100 years.

Aviation in this country is on the whole still one of the best careers you can have and as others have said being somewhere on holiday is a big difference to actually living there.That said I always find the small towns and villages in parts of France charming and providing I could learn the language that would be the first country I would head for after the UK

Dear Lawnmower;
Don't assume that leaving the UK exempts you from paying tax. You will be liable, one way or another, for the tax on your income, wherever you earn it. There is no way to avoid paying tax in the EU unless you are a resident of Monaco or a few other exclusive retreats.
In general, it is better and less likely to be questioned if you register for tax in the country where you derive the majority of your income, in your case, the UK.
You can elect to pay your tax liabilities in the country of your primary residence but then you might find it difficult or even impossible to claim any allowances you are entitled to, e.g. the Tax free portion of your flight allowances.
Anyone who has the idea that the taxman will ignore you once you leave these shores is sadly mistaken. It was the case some years ago, but no longer. As advised, study the tax laws and read all the literature on the UK Gov website. It pays to be upfront with HM Taxman.
Whatever you do, don't stop paying your taxes if you do move abroad as the resultant bill will be far more than the original liability.
I know from experience.

Wow, what happened to you then?

rubik101
 

Sounds like you went through a painful experience, but I'm not sure you have the option to just "register in the country where you derive the majority of your income". The French, for example are very interested in anything you earn in France (e.g. gite rental) and don't give a stuff about you being "registered" elsewhere when it comes to "non-flying" income.

Where I would agree with you is you should be upfront with the Uk taxman, declare your earnings somewhere -wether the host nation decides to tax you is another matter. Be aware of any bi-lateral agreements - or lack of them...and don't try to fly under the radar with the taxman -that will be painful.

You could try a search of 'Tax' threads here on PPRUNE and read some of the previous history on this subject.
I moved to Germany many years ago and thought I was 'under the radar' working in one EU country and living in another. After many quiet and uneventful years I received a rude awakening when a demand for unpaid taxes arrived from the UK taxman. They required all the unpaid tax plus a non-payment fine plus a non-negotiable payment for the interest on the unpaid arrears. The rate was well above the bank rate. Total amount, horrendous.
If you think you are clever enough to avoid paying tax, believe me, you are not. Try it if you like and if you get away with it, all well and good. If you get caught, it is very, very expensive. Ask Boris Becker and Michael Schumacher et.al. MS narrowly avoided prison.
Just accept that you will pay taxes and eventually die, both are unavoidable unless you are very, very rich, and then it's only one of them!

Try doing a search on several of the Swiss Cantons.
I eblieve they are relaxing the rules on who can move there, its fine if you are from one of the larger / older EU nations.
Not so good if you are from the old East or Africa.

That said they have varying tax rates that can be very attractive.
The scenery is amazing, quality of life, education etc
Only problem is you may have to speak French and / or Boxhead, however evrybody speaks English.

Tis my intention to get there...

Ah, to be the New World Man again!

Great posts by all and really good advice. It's amazing how common the problems are that are faced all over the world by expats.

IMHO, you are going to pay most of your national income tax no matter what. The only question is whether the locals where you flock to are going to let you live there for free. I'd get rid of any ties (tax targets, houses, vehicles, boats, accounts) in the old world if you know what's good for you. And do not go home to visit family and do something like vote: might complicate the argument about where you really live. (vote at the overseas embassy.)

Expat Base: (If you bid a hardship posting overseas)
If you're single, or become single :} avoid the Witchbrew pots like the plague. I mean: marry a local and get scarce. Don't live in their little dictatorship neighborhoods by any means. Your girl will be happy since she's with you and the town loves the both of you; this will make the Witches Covenant especially Unhappy. Especially if she's a cute young thing full of life who dotes on you. Having a foot into the culture will make life a breeze for you overseas; whereas the witches struggle sideways daily, complaining and trying to change everything all the time. You'll have a great experience overseas if you go someplace with an open mind and resolve to get drunk and be somebody (I never dined with so many mayors, high priests, dignitaries, celebrities etc in my life.) Back home, you're just another unimportant number. Overseas, you're the King if you can manage to stay away from the rolling-pin committee. :ok:

If you're married to an old-worlder, ahem, I recommend volunteering for uncovered trips often.

I'm sure they gonna welcome you with open arms....:rolleyes:

"Expat Base: (If you bid a hardship posting overseas)
If you're single, or become single avoid the Witchbrew pots like the plague. I mean: marry a local and get scarce. Don't live in their little dictatorship neighborhoods by any means. Your girl will be happy since she's with you and the town loves the both of you; this will make the Witches Covenant especially Unhappy. Especially if she's a cute young thing full of life who dotes on you. Having a foot into the culture will make life a breeze for you overseas; whereas the witches struggle sideways daily, complaining and trying to change everything all the time. You'll have a great experience overseas if you go someplace with an open mind and resolve to get drunk and be somebody (I never dined with so many mayors, high priests, dignitaries, celebrities etc in my life.) Back home, you're just another unimportant number. Overseas, you're the King if you can manage to stay away from the rolling-pin committee."

Oh what very wise words those are. I have seen countless expat Pilots struggle because the Missus didnt like the new home. Choose very carefully and put taxation about number 10 on your list of good reasons to commute.

I left Virgin Atlantic last year (A340 FO). A major factor was the commute. Put frankly it was horrific. The amount of free time I lost travelling and overnighting at LHR didnt even make it close to being a viable long term option.