If Capt Jonny bloggs finds OS t and c better than his current outfit then he is either a cessna 150 driver or from the east, or as has been noted desperate.

Could someone send the t/c and pay to find out if it worth of applying,also link to apply:)

Before making such a statement, have a read through this topic:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=271434

Loads of guys earing less and having worse T's and C's then OS.

Must be quite nice living in total ignorance to the rest of the world.:{

CEJM,
Having read the open shorts contract cover to cover and been astounded how much people are willing to prostitute themselves and the industry I would suggest that I am less ignorant on the matter than you may have assumed.
I am not surprised by the type of people I know to have joined.
My integrety is intact. I didnt join. It wont last with the type of management, the type of servitude , i mean contract , and the type of people that have joined. Both parties will live to regret it.;).
They dont need to be called scabs. Anal prostiutes would be more appropiate

Wee One,

You might be right. But your earlier statement seems a bit unfair on our Eastern European colleague who is on 1400 euros a month. Imagine yourself in their position and you might have done exactly the same.

Different people will make different choices based on their requirements. I do understand what you are saying and personally I wouldn't join either. But if you have the choice to join OS or be without a job in the near future then a lot of people will choose OS. And hopefully I will never be put in that situation but I might choose OS also over being without a job.

Very difficult to judge the people who have joined and what their reasons are.

But I must add, that unlike you, I don't know anybody who has joined OS.

"Different people will make different choices based on their requirements. I do understand what you are saying and personally I wouldn't join either. But if you have the choice to join OS or be without a job in the near future then a lot of people will choose OS. And hopefully I will never be put in that situation but I might choose OS also over being without a job.
udging ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It not as if we are judging their mortal souls ,only their choices. And it is a bad choice indeed. There are lots of jobs available today that do not involve compromising one's integrity and life-long reputation. It's just not worth it.

I think we shouldn't be surprised to know that there are quite a few 757/767 captains and F/O's who are really interested in Openskies.

You can't blaim them really, they have their families and/or themselves to take care for and the future for them at Flyglobespan, XL ,Jet2 ,Thomson and all those mainland charters operating on 757/767 like Arkefly and Jetairfly is starting to look a bit grim beyond 2008.
Compared to those operators , terms and conditions don't differ a lot and one could imagine there might even be more job security at Openskies.

There is some smoke screen of putting openskies pilots on the BA seniority list but what we are really talking about is the fact that we are talking about putting BA pilots on the openskies planes and nothing less or more.
And that means a stop on direct entry captains does it not ?

I guess there will be quite a few BA F/O's happy with that.
But will that really happen or is it wishfull thinking ?
Normally a new start up requires direct entry captains don't they ?

and to mention other UK airlines T&C's will erode because BA's T&C's are eroding (which they are not by the way, they'll mean openskies T&C's don't they) goes a bit far doesn't it ?
I very seriously doubt that ThomsonFly T&C's will be eroded by the openskies start up. Same goes for all the other operators.

Joe Two,

You are, indeed, correct. There are DEC positions within OS. Infact the recruitment has been open to a limited number of BA line pilots who wish to be 'seconded' to OS for a minimum of 4 years on OS T's & C's.

As far as joining OS as a DEC from an FO's position in mainline, it's a non starter. BA have already stated that a command course within OS will not be accepted when the secondee comes back to mainline and they will have to wait and re-do the command course as appropriate. Somewhat questionable to me as the command qualifications/course should, surely, be adequate for OS and Mainline unless the management are accepting below par training for their new fledgling?

Even if the common seniority list were to be accepted, any DEC positions who wish to transfer to the mainline from OS would lose their commands as they take up their natural seniority position within the company. AFAIK there will be no grandfather rights.

It's all in the melting pot at the moment but, oddly enough, there doesn't seem to be a queue at the door to OS from Mainline. :\

As to the T's & C's, BA is still billed as an 'aspirational' carrier. Which means that they, at the moment, have no lack of applicants wishing to join. If the T's & C's at any major carrier be it BA or Virgin are slashed then there is no incentive to move carrier. The management will know this and therefore reduce any incentives they may have to entice people to remain with their company. As the top starts to slip the degradation WILL roll downhill. Why would any current management maintain any half decent T's & C's when they know that the pilot workforce has nowhere else to go?

April the 15th was when BALPA showed support for others. Only it was just BA members that bothered to show up. If my memory serves correctly (it does) the only other support was from Air Lingus.

Sorry but that shows a lack of appreciation of recent history. ThomsonFly was a pre-runner of the OS model, Britannia tried to undercut it's main line by introducing TFly on lower T&C's. BALPA, which is very strong in TFly, stood up to the company and got T&C's back to parity. All those that joined TFly benefitted from the focus of the Britannia company council.

I wish all those joining OS as an FO the best of luck, everyone needs a break in this industry. I can't condone any DEC's, you are all big enough to know what the issues are.

Joe two.
You are right about an ever shrinking 7576 pool of jobs,however you need to compare apples with apples etc. OS is a ryr style shafting nothing more nothing less. Makes jet2 look like ahippy commune.

Joe two, you have little or no understanding of terms and conditions in Thomsonfly if you are comparing them with OS, Jet2, Flyglobespan and Excel.

PP

Does anybody on this thread / website who freely uses the word SCAB actually know what it means ?
The Oxford Dictionary states that a SCAB is a BLACKLEG ( in regard to trade-Unionism ) and that a BLACKLEG is ' a workman who works for an employer whose men are on strike'.
In aviation ( eg the Australian 'dispute' in 1989 ) it means a pilot who basically defies his own colleagues / union and crosses the picket line and returns to work .
I fail to see how prospective pilots for OS , who are obviously not part of any union as yet , can be labelled as SCABS .
Get your facts staright please.

ps I have no interest in the outcome of this 'dispute' , but I dislike the use of derogatory terms in our ' gentlemens ' profession by Neanderthals.

Kota....
The BA pilots are in court so they can strike on this issue if need be. That fulfills all requirements to use the word SCAB. How funny that you types get all squeemish over the use of the word SCAB itself, yet look the other way over the act of SCABBING.

All of this political correctness and equivocation is serving to appease WW and let him get away with it. For heaven's sake ,grow a pair and call it what it is.

If this is the attitude of a typical BA pilot I am glad I am not part of it.

quote Kotakota I agree 100 %

How you can call this a gentlemans profession when we are debating pilots choosing to ignore IALPA recruitment bans is beyond me.

And for all those that have chosen to join Openskies...you have NO bloody idea what the current management ethos is in British Airways because they will drain every last drop of morale from your soul. I have seen the contract; are some of you blind? the terms and conditions are appalling.

- No seniority, so any upgrades will be to the biggest brownnoser/ Robin glovers golf pals.
- company can cancel your leave at any time - awesome, that'll be interesting to tell the wife and kids!
- company can vary ANY aspect of your duty from time to time - i can see British Airways taking FULL advantage of that.

I wouldn't like to make that commanders discretion extension on a snowy January night in NYC after my third 2 man B2B in a month.
For comparison i have just got back from a 2 man JFK B2B...still knackered 2 days later and the weather etc on the East coast was benign so it was as easy as atlantic crossings ever get. The thought of doing it 3 times + a month fills me with dread.

CAn someone who is employed with Openskies please give us a breakdown of previous employment because i would be interested who exactly has worse conditions in the Western world.

The word "scab" is being used out of frustration!! It's a pathetic, dismal attempt to intimidate and stop people joining Openskies and it won't work:=

Those who consider the T's & C's at Openskies to be below par may well be right when compared to their own, but the (sad) fact is that there are a lot worse out there.

If Openskies offers you an improved quality of life then go for it. Don't worry about a couple of donkeys trying to bully you here on Pprune.

The attitude of the majority in BA mainline can be found on this thread thro' the words of "wobble2plank".

MD:ok:

Whether the people applying to Open Lies are to be referred to as "scabs" is not especially relevant. The fact is that they are in contravention of the IFALPA recruitment ban which means that if they ever need the support of a union (and BA have already said they will recognise BALPA as now), they will find themselves on their own.

As someone who currently works for BA, that is not a position I'd feel particularly safe in considering some of the individuals who are running the show. Don't ever, ever, ever put the slightest foot wrong and you'll be absolutely fine. If you screw up, God help you because it's unlikely anyone else will.

Pity the IFALPA ban was only launched well after recruiting had begun (as usual). A retrospective ban on recruitment seems more than a little daft.

i think that was because the BALPA ballot had to be issued, voted on, then action could start once the union had a mandate.
IMO it would have been stupid to issue a IFALPA ban BEFORE the ballot result was known just in case. :ugh:

True.
From all those companies Thomsonfly is the only one who is forced to have redundancies.
Redundancies will be on a voluntary basis.

Makes a possible move to OpenSkies even more likely doesn't it ?

Dave,

If BA say that they are to recognise BALPA in Open skies, then I assume it will have a Company Council just like the BACC and an appointed full time official. Their job will be to provide help and support for anyone who has a problem with their employer. I really don't understand what this so called ban has to do with the level of support that BALPA will provide. If, as you suggest, there will be no support provided, then why would BALPA seek recognition in OS?

If I were to apply to OS (which I am not) i would expect the same level of support to be provided by BALPA as i enjoyed last time I was a BA subsidiary employee and I am sure I would get it.

Just supposing three or four competent and preferably battle hardened reps were to emerge within OS. If they were to work with a top rate BALPA negotiator (there are one or two) and if OS had a high quality well trained management team in place, who truly undestood the concept of working together for the benefit of all, it could be possible to adapt these terms and conditions to create a good quality package which was well matched to the type of operation along with the pilots aspirations and with little or no exta cost to the company.

I know that given the right team BALPA could do it, but this would of course mean having a management team which didn't link competence to golfing ability and funny handshakes. An incentive scheme not driven by short term bonuses would also help.

Back to the drawing board then. :ugh:

Sell your soul?
 

There's a largish airline in the Middle East that started a DEC program around 4 years ago. Previously upgrades were made internally on seniority.

Happily all the BA retirees boycotted said airline.

Hang on! No they didn't!

Since then several hundred F/Os at that airline have been disadvantaged in perpetuity by the arrival of no small number of ex BA DECs (and others).

Open Skies? Bring it on.

Not that I'll be applying though.

jesus christ Watertheflowers,

YOu have managed to miss the point completely haven't you.

I assume you are referring to Emirates...if so then as there isn't a union in EK then there couldn't have been a recruitment ban eh? :ugh::mad:
Instead of whinging on here about displaced Fo's how about you chanel your energy into getting union recognition at EK. then and only then can you use collective bargaining to negotiate with your employer. Otherwise i'm afraid they will do as they like...:ugh:

BALPA aren't objecting to openskies, nor the pay, nor external pilot recruitment. What we want is PROTECTION so that if Openskies is the great success we ALL hope it is, we don't end up with a jetstar/Qantas situation.

I suggest before posting such accusations in future you at least get the facts right as it just makes you look a bit daft otherwise....

And what the hell have BA retirees got to do with anything...once they have left BA then they are free to take up a position of their choosing. As i have said above, i believe no recruitment ban was in place or i'm sure many would not have applied.

And one last thing...i see you object to command upgrades on a non-seniority basis; tell me what system they are using at openskies again?

biddedout,

Nearly.

If BA say that they are to recognise BALPA in Open skies, then I assume it will have a Company Council just like the BACC and an appointed full time official. Their job will be to provide help and support for any member who has a problem with their employer.

I may be wrong but I can't imagine there'll be too many members applying to Open Lies until the dispute has been sorted out one way or the other. Like I said, anyone who isn't a member should watch their back if they screw up.

As to the rest of your post, I agree with the sentiment. IMHO, the likelihood of there being a few "battle-hardened" reps at Open Lies is similar to the likelihood of Open Lies getting competent management. :rolleyes:

As you say, a decent set of reps could potentially improve the T&Cs at Open Lies over time, which may start to make it an attractive proposition to more pilots. However, if they do this without being on the master seniority list, it risks driving down the T&Cs at mainline, which brings us back to the Qantas/Jetstar scenario which is exactly what we're trying to avoid.

Dave B

In simple terms, 3Greens, you and your group are attempting by the best means available to you, to avoid the importation of the commercial practices that we in the Middle East and other parts of the world experience.

The problems we have in the Middle East are in a small part caused by people of your type exporting themselves to our area.

Maybe I should say 'best of luck', but it sticks in my throat a bit.

Well I'm afraid guy's I'm not convinced.

Coming back to a question I posed a couple of days ago - why is OS any different to GO?

Ans: -

1, GO provided a nice little job for retiring 55 years olds

2, GO didn't fly and n'stop anywhere nice like NY

Rather than a great moral crusade to defend the T's and C's of our industry this IMO is all motivated by self interest of a blinkered group of pilots who already have good jobs and want to ensure that they maintain themselves ahead of others.

As for talk about 'scabs' etc I thought I'd left all that behind in the playground 30 plus ago.

If BAPLA and BA pilots really want to improve T's and C's industry wide then a good start would be RYR, Jet 2, Globespan and others flying around with below par pay, meaningless pensions and nothing to eat - compare that with your 2 man b2b JFK - God give me strength

Gypsy

For a start BA & BALPA would be pretty hard pressed to improve ts and Cs in companies that don't have union recognition.

As for GO i concede that at the time BALPA was rotten from the core with too many feathering their own nests to give a damn about line pilots. Outsourcing was new in BA at the time and too many "i'm alright Jack" pilots wouldn't have given the union a mandate to do anything. I believe these times have changed and the current BA company council are excellent and i have more faith in them than i've ever had in BALPA.

As for giving you strength, i'm afraid i can't do that; all i can say is that comapring multi-sector days for RYR and 2 man B2B's is comparing apples and oranges. I have done both (and still do on the 757/767) and both leave you tired abeit in a differant way. I personally find that SH just requires 1 good night kip to recover whereas a 2 man East coast requires a few days, more if it's a B2B. This is more akin to fatigue than tiredness.

And as for NY being a "nice " nightstop - it is excellent - that is if you are staying in Manhattan. Where is Openskies putting its crew up again? the BA owned hotel is full of mainline crew everynight so my guess is you will be staying in New Jersey or out on Long Island. Trust me on this, if you aren't in Manhattan then NY is a 5h1te nightstop. Oh, and as your cabin crew are NY based they won't be with you either so it's candlelit meals for 2.

For many people starting out in the industry the likes of BA/Virgin et al, otherwise known as legacy airlines provided the opportunity of flying for a reputable, stable airline and the chance to fly some heavy metal. Go around any flying school and the majority of people will ogle at the big jets and hope one day to be at the controls. The chance of one day being at big airways would help people get over all those low paid long houred days in rusty old buckets held together with gaffer tape.

Open Skies and what it represents has the potential to completely ruin this industry once and for all. The chance to finally earn a decent living doing a job we all love will be gone. We didn't fork out a fortune and forgo time with our families to end up getting paid a pittance.

If you want to see where this could be heading just look to Asia and the ME. Cathay was once a great airline to work at. A scalers were the best paid in the world. Then they moved to the B scale. Still okay but not so good. Then C and its getting worse each year. Then there were DEC's hired and shafting of guys on seniority lists. The freighter fleet brought even more heart ache. Emirates were no better. All Willy is doing is copying the business model and I hope that BALPA can put an end to it for the sake of all of us.

As 3greens isn't a retiree it's hard to blame his type for your troubles. The question remains, what did you do to fight this imposition by your management? If the answer is sweet FA then it would be pretty feeble to wish hardship on others who have the balls and the organisation to resist the kind of management shafting you didn't. Sadly for some people 'sharing the misery' is a mantra.

GO was a small, low cost airline aimed at attracting budget travellers at a time that BA was actively distancing itself from that segment of the market and downsizing aircraft from B757s to A319s in order to minimize low yield seats on board the aircraft. GOs business plan was complementary to mainlines in that at the outset it exclusively targeted a market segment mainline did not want. When GO started to target premium travellers it was no longer considered a complementary business to mainline and was sold. Open Skies is exclusively targetting premium transatlantic business travellers, the core market of BA mainline, from the outset. That's the difference.

I can't excuse the behaviour of BALPA during GO, CityFlier etc, but what I can say is that Chris Darke, the general secretary at the time, was summarily dumped, and replaced by Jim McAuslan, a man in a different galaxy when it comes to comparisons. The stalking horse candidate was a BA Captain who put his money where his mouth was when the demand for change became a clamour.

Secondly, the Chairman of the BACC at the time left BALPA to take up a management post - in charge of baggage as it happens. What followed was a rout, with a new BACC of a completely different agenda.

If BALPA could have been accused of a prochial view in the past, the current BACC has a far broader horizon, and a MUCH more commercially aware constituent. I suggest that if we had this BACC then, things would have turned out very differently indeed.

HS - GO was a small airline ????? I think they got up to 17 or more a/c - OS has one and is planning I think 6 by end 2009. I don't think I can see your point.

As much as BA pilots would like to think that any European capital to the USA in Premium class is their market, I'm afraid it isn't - thats the whole point about open skies agreements - competition.

3 Greens - I've also done longhaul 2 and 3 man crew both east and west, plus SH and Charter -they can all be tiring but there is a body of chaps who still see the chance to get off in another country with some beer vouchers as the best choice - my point is I don't think they'd be this fuss if OS was a SH operator. My feeling is that a lot of the noisest complainants would look down their noses and be happy to see such a SH version of OS recruit others on less pay and lower T's and C's. I take your point about NY n/stops if your assumptions about OS Hotac are correct - truth of the matter is that the n/stop isn't designed to give us a great little social life - nice when it happens but it doesn't feature high on the agenda in the office

So tell me HS, more about these:
Would that be the great BALPA cop-out?
Got it wrong again eh?
What an absolute waste of everyone's time - a period of silence from you would now be most appreciated!