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Upgrade to left seat or run away?
I know this might sound stupid but:
Would you turn down a command offer on B737 (on a sh***y airline to leave for greener pastures? Let's say EK,EY and fly long haul? |
Command every time.
Long haul is boring, you'll be stuck as an FO for longer than you thought and you'll potentially see direct entry commands come along who've been LHS on a 737. It's a personal thing. Depends how old you are, but I myself would take the command. . . |
ALWAYS , ALWAYS get in the left seat ASAP , even if only for 500-1000 hours , you will NEVER regret it. Opens MANY doors.Get on with it.
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No brainer. Take the command. Many people get blinkered in to thinking long haul is the be all and end all. The learning curve steepens with command and you will make yourself far more marketable in the future.
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FMC Overheat
It's not a stupid question at all and dependent on many factors. I was told to never turn down a free type rating but that came from a guy with 5 different uniforms in his closet! In most airlines Seniority is everything and a couple of numbers can make a huge difference. Having said that, P1/PIC time can mean the difference between getting or not getting the next job. The best anyone can really say is that it's a crap shoot. Take this example from the past for instance. Join prestigious Pan Am as a second officer and have a job for life or cough up your life savings for the right seat of a clapped-out, foreign-registered BAC1-11 for a start-up out of Luton, that no-one's ever heard of; Ryanair? Who'd have thunk! Make your best guess after talking to as many people as you can. Best of Luck Atlast PS I've turned down 2 free types. CV240/340/440 because it was attached to a 2 year contract in Laredo,TX and L382 because right seat on the 747 was a no-brainer! |
you say your company is sh##ty. so will life be better in the LHS of this sh##ty outfit? how long will the glow of the forth stripe last before you once again hate the place?
what i' m trying to say is: maybe better work on greener gras. and since you can't transfer that captainship to the new place why bother? unless you join the PARCetc-contract-world and work for 1-4 different more or less sh++ty companies every year... furthermore i would be VERY carefull before choosing longhaul. |
Just what like everybody says.... go for the left seat.... it will be better in the long run! :ok:
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Thanks guys for the differents replies so far, indeed it's a great opportunity to go left seat and then get 1000 PIC on B737 and leave that would be a wise choice.
What made me think about turning down the command offer was the strange and childish behaviour of couple of TRE/I's working with us. Being a PIC on B737 and having 1000's hours on B737 permits in fact a lot of job opportunities like Ryanair (who's only taking non-EU captains not F/O's). Isn't that true atlast? ;) |
and here's me thinking you're talking about Ryanair all along
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Well - for my two cents worth...
I had the same choice and, after much debating on what the most sensible thing to do was, it all came down to what I wanted out of life at the time and for the future. I was very unhappy at my current company - working very hard multi sector lo-cost shorthaul and no life at home or outside work in general. Command was offered, assessments passed and start date for the course given. Meanwhile, alot of my friends in the company left for longhaul pastures new. No worries, I thought - take the command and at least the extra money will compensate for the rest of the pain......but for how long? And once those financial handcuffs are on - how easy will it be to take what will equate to a big pay cut to leave LHS and prob go back to RHS with a new company? I had also managed to secure a job offer from a longhaul carrier - just to make the decision harder! Many more questions filled my head every night for a considerable amount of time and all seemed to make the choice harder.....time to sort the wheat from the chaff! So...it came down to this...WHAT was making me unhappy at my company? Answer - lifestyle due working hours. Would this change with seat change? Answer - no! If I take the command, will I be happy putting up with this - not in just the first couple of years but in the next 5, 10 or 15? Answer - no! Will the command help me in a seniority based long haul airline? Answer - not really...still start on the bottom of the seniority list with 2 stripes! Will I like longhaul? Answer - don't know! Now, stay with me... the crunch bit....can I go back to shorthaul if I jump and dont like it? Answer - Yes! Will a command still be available. Answer - yes, either straight away or within a year probably. If I stay, move seats and am still unhappy, can I still jump ship? Answer - no, job offer will be gone! (and we all know how often they come along in many companies!) So....I jumped ship! Was it the right move? Well, I am sat writing this in LA after which I have 10 days off at home(where home, by the way, is now a far more sunny part of Europe than when I was at my old job!). Sure, the company has its problems, but so does ANY airline. Command is years away at present but suddenly, on the other side, that does not seem to bother me now I have what I wanted out of my life back - I have even started integrating back into the outside community and begun forming tentative friendships!!!! Will I ever go back? Not right now but who knows....at least I have the options. So, as I said right at the top of this post, I think it all comes down to what you want out of life and your job personally. Sure, there is much advice around - you can build that CV and get command time on there, never turn down a type rating etc etc etc..... Listen to it all and then think this....What will make YOU happy? Remember, great as this job is...it is just a job....only a part of your life, albeit a big one! Don't know if this helps...it is just my perspective on what was, at the time, a difficult choice. All the best, whatever you decide! |
Get your command . Start with a very positive attitude and you'll make it.
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FMC O'Heat, I assume from your username that you are talking about newer model 737 (EFIS) at the minimum. I would take the command seat unless you are talking about locking yourself into an older fleet (737 pre-300 model). Same would apply to any long-haul decision (747 Classic or older series A300/B767 for example). Once you launch a career into aircraft soon featured on "The History Channel", you are on an ever-narrowing path to Freightdogville. Assuming your decision takes you to the left seat, be sure to upgrade to any training status (LineCheckAirman, TRI, TRE, whatever they might call it) when it is open or offered to you, you seem like the reflective type so you are already ahead of the game. If you do this, your career opportunities will resemble a bullhorn rather than a funnel. Best of Luck. Timbob.
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Recalling old days... and mistakes...
In 1973, got layoff from PanAm (October War oil crisis)
Thanks to PanAm, with 707 and 727 type ratings, I got myself captain jobs overseas. Rarely coming home to Califonia... but I was a big-time international captain... xxx A few weeks home in Los Angeles, 1979, a friend gave my name and number to Air California HR. Got an interview, and offered a job a few days later. Back then, AirCal routes were from the SFO bay area to Orange County. Miserable fleet of little "light twins" (737-200s)... xxx Me - a "heavy 707 international captain"... becoming F/O on 737 local operations...? NOOOOO...! And resign my seniority/recall rights with powerful PanAm...? NOOOOO...! Well, what a mistake... Some 10 years later, AirCal became part of AA... All these AirCal guys are now 767 - 777 captains with AA... xxx So, damned if you do, and damned if you don´t... I thought PanAm was forever... as TWA or Eastern... or... ??? Like you people maybe think now same, about BA, or Lufty, or... ??? Well, remember Sabena and Swissair... xxx My personal advice to your question, take PIC positions and type ratings as first choice... but... :) Happy contrails |
Go for quality of life first and standard of living will follow - it does not work the other way round.
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NAT Zulu....
One of the absolute BEST posts I've ever read on Pprune. Bravo, Sir!! Kapitanleutnant |
start doubting
Hello mates,
I would like to have some frank opinions from your side despite I am convinced I have taken the good decision:33 years old,6800h,TRI/TC MD80/90 in Europe,PIC on thi acft since 2 years and I resigned from this job as PIC.I will start an A330 course as F/O in the middle east and am looking forward,my family too,which will move with me. |
It would be interesting to know the experience of the gentlemen advising to upgrade instead of taking the LH FO position.
Have they ever experienced the lifestyle of LH flying? As anything in life it is a personal choice what one considers a good lifestyle, for me it is LH without a doubt and I have done both SH and LH. I am not going back to being looked up in a crammy cockpit for my 5´th 4 leg 12 hour duty day departing at 4:45 anytime soon, 4stripes or not! Then there is the consideration of senority, the PIC time SH will do You no good in most future LH companys if senority based and most are. Best Regards Heavydane |
FMC
Please take note of NAT Z's post. What is your situation? Do you have an offer elsewhere yet? Is there a bond for your LHS? How soon is your course? P1 is great but with the predicted :eek: shortage of pilot numbers in the next decade, who knows what the opportunities will be in 1/2/3 years time. Life is risk management, so do what feels good for you now. PS With the number of a/c orders and if you can do the course, widebody LHS in EK is 3 years away :ok: Good luck, HD |
What is your situation?
Do you have an offer elsewhere yet? Is there a bond for your LHS? How soon is your course? P1 is great but with the predicted shortage of pilot numbers in the next decade, who knows what the opportunities will be in 1/2/3 years time. 3100h TT 2800h B737. 27 y.o not married no kids. :hmm: If there's a bond for LHS, for sure there's one, min. duration is 2-3 years. Course is scheduled to start in FEB-MAR'08. Training for PIC is taking too much time here and progression is very slow. :ugh: I've got some offers in ME and Europe and I was about to start conversion to JAA ATPL in JAN. So taking the command offer is going to mess things up. I am not sure if I can handle the command training and the JAA conversion process at the same time! :mad: What will be the opportunities for long haul in 2-3 years time? Who knows? This is the question? |
I think NAT Z post says it all. I have been in exactly the same position, albeit in the UK. (lowcost-to Long haul)
I was given some advice when I was thinking what to do……."you’ll regret it if you stay (all you will want is a stable, secure job with good quality of life) and you’ll regret if you go elsewhere (you will see you friends get commands and the extra money/stripe whatever turns you on).":ugh: The above was very true for me until about 18 months into my current job, and then I started to see what a wonderful quality of life I had. I have no regrets at all. Get into the big seniority based airline asap. The only word of caution would be if you ever want to work in the USA. They put a lot of emphasis on P1 time, whether it was from a Cessna or a 737 doesn’t seem to matter, even for F/o jobs. |
An old bald (or was that bold?) captain once told me 'never turn down a command or a type rating [in that order]'. I think he was 99.9% spot on. The other .1% is NAT Zulu! Hope whichever you choose works out for you!
:} |
NAT Zulu, very good post. :ok:
However, i think there are a few differences between FMC overheat and NAT Zulu. As far as i can make out than NAT Zulu jumped ship to a British longhaul carrier were FMC is thinking about going to the ME. It's difficult to assist somebody in making a decision as we don't know al the personal info. FMC, if you are going to the ME do you see this as a career move where you will stay for the longterm? Or do you see it more as a way to get some longhaul experience and typerating? If you know that you eventually would like to move back to your homecountry (guessing the UK) than i would take the command now and wait for an opening at either Virgin or BA. This way you are on the seniority list with a carrier you would (hopefully) like to stay with. Working in the ME or Asia for several years and than trying to go to BA or Virgin might put you a few years back, seniority wise. Best of luck with your decision. CEJM |
A very tricky question indeed.
First of all...I have been flying over 6 years for one of the fastest growing airlines in the world...Yep...it IS based in the Middle East! I have had the opportunity to fly with all the latest types of heavy metal. But without wanting to go in to a polemic regarding Middle Eastern Airlines, be aware that you will come here to work really hard (1000hrs/year) and that you will be looked upon as a slave. While living and working in the Middle East used to be able to provide you with a certain lifestyle, these days many of that has dissappeared due to erroding T&Cs, dwindling exchange rates and huge pilot shortages. So dont come here for the lifestyle, only come here for a certain career progression. Upgrades will be offered to you maybe or maybe not. Depending on the company you will choose...But it might easily take you 4 years from date of joining, a term which has proven itself to be too long for many others. On the other hand, I think the old adagio of "never leave an upgrade or a typerating untouched" does not have that much value anymore than it used to have. Aviation is changing and for sure opportunities will be around for some years to come. I am faced with the same question as you are facing. After 6 years here I am finally offered an upgrade. But both my wife and I are fed up with the place and its lifestyle. At the same time I am offered a job back home. Less money and less apealing airplanes, but with some sort of a normal lifestyle which allows me to be closer to family and real friends (exactly, the M.E. will bring you many people to know, but very very few real friends to have). So 90% it is decided, I will leave the M.E and a possible upgrade behind in lieu of a better lifestyle.... All I want to say is....do what you think is right. Do not listen too much to others but follow your gut feeling. Dont get stuck following old sayings etc... But remember....The grass is only greener on the other side as a result of the :mad: underneath it! |
Hi again...back from my trip.
Firelfly bob - think you managed in one sentence what I was trying to say in half a page!!! Well done sir! I agree! FMC Overheat.....yes, I did jump to LH in the UK (VA) and not the ME, but I do think that this is not really that important. The ethos I was trying to communicate still applies to taking or leaving the command, I think - investigate thoroughly your options, including both positive and negative aspects, and then go for the one that seems to give you the most satisfaction to your OWN personal requirements. Remember it is horses for courses, so to speak, for every aspect you could consider! One mans desert sandpit prison is another mans nirvana and some may say the notion of working for a boss who has a penchant for bad sweaters and galactic space tourism a crazy idea but, right now, I love what I get from the job! Try this...... I wrote a line down the middle of a piece of paper with "plus" at the top of one side and "minus"on the other and listed everything I could think of into the two columns. Try and block out everything else except what each point means to YOU. For example : "command at current airline" - obviously, on the face of it, a "plus" since it looks good on your CV but possibly not the same grade for the effect on your lifestyle maybe? Nothing else I can say really, fella. It really is your choice. I guess the point is alot of people on here like to tell you WHAT to choose, when really, I think, the most important thing is HOW to choose! Hope the fog is clearing slowly!! PM me anytime Nat Z |
Having both the European and the ME experience in both seats for a number of years in a variety of types, I feel obliged to comment:
Nat Z, you must have not lived in the ME, or else you would have known that it IS of great importance where that job is. Flying longhaul for Virgin and EK is NOT the same! I can see our FMC friend being all excited about the prospect of going to work in the sand pit. Beware:}!!! FMC, I see you have your mind set for "go", but before you do, ask yourself a few questions: 1. Are you ready to put your pants down for the relentless drive of bean counters to make more profit for their masters, and crush your spine and destroy your health in the process? Here, you won't have budy, rules and regulations or pilot union support for WHATEVER problem you are going to encounter. Lifestyle? forget about it. Savings? Give me a break! Upgrade? Maybe. Sunshine? Oh yes, cause if you are lucky to land that EK "dream job" you'll spend a daily average of 6 hours in DXB traffic jams. Plenty of sunshine:}!!!!!!! Ever wondered how life looks like in an artificial, luxurious and overpriced Mars outpost:eek:? If you find these are non-issues, come to the sandpit. Good luck:E Please re-read excellent post of Sgnr De L'Atlantique:D! And, one more: before you start any ungrade, anywhere, get confident about the prospect of making it, or else........ Ps: On my way back to GOOD OLD EUROPE;) |
FMC OVERHEAT
I am a similar age to you and I got my first command a year ago and it's on a medium jet. I have always wanted to go long haul but had not applied for anything at the time so accepting the command was an easier decision for me. I have however found my command experience very rewarding and the past year has been a fantastic learning experience. If I had the chance to go long haul when the command was offered then I probably would of taken the command for the experience. Looking back and using hindsight - I would of taken the command even if it means I may delay a potential move to a bigger company. The way I see it at the moment is that despite not having the greatest roster plus other issues, the extra money is very nice and transformed my quality of life. that in turn will make me look very closely at other airlines when I do wish to move on. In otherwords I feel less likely to make a move which would be a mistake since I have more to loose now with T+Cs than I did as a F/O. The command can open so many new doors (training etc) and you could find yourself joining a long haul airline in a couple of years time having a lot more to offer than your peers who are in the right hand seat. If it is of any use then relation of mine who is a trainer in a long haul company strongly advised me to take the command and postpone a move. Whatever you do... best of luck :ok: |
NOTSURE....
Nat Z, you must have not lived in the ME, or else you would have known that it IS of great importance where that job is. Flying longhaul for Virgin and EK is NOT the same! I can see our FMC friend being all excited about the prospect of going to work in the sand pit. Beware:}!!! Hope you find pastures greener! |
Lifestyle.... For me this is the answer to all the questions I have always had with regards to my career. So yes you can turn down a command and so you should if it is going to bring only misery, tiredness etc to you and your family.
Nowadays I don't care how big is my plane and where I sit... Where I live, the house I have, the car/bike I have and how much skiing or scuba diving I can do just like that without having to book holidays or anything like that is what makes me happy. Like I say, I don't care where I sit because if I am happy in my environnment then I will stay in whichever company it might be and then the command will come. Actually I doesn't always take 15 years to manage to concile the two together... So enjoying myself at work, at home and on the seniority list is what matters. We all have different aspirations but I found the lure of a LHS was often a con for me to stay. The rest of the company doesn't change... Good luck with the choice anyway. Better to have one than none ;) |
NAT Zulus first post is a very good one, my situation was exactly like his and sounds like we were and are in the same companies...
However, I was very close to jumping ship to go to a ME carrier and am so happy now that I didnt, fortunately a UK longhaul carrier saved me from the sand. What I would add to NAT Zulus posts are that before going to the ME I would think very carefully as flying longhaul out there is not quite the same, you will be in a shiny new jet but you will fly your pants off with minimum rests and minimum days off at home or even downroute. Good Luck. |
Sorry, what I forgot to add was that for me the lifestyle involved with flying longhaul is far superior than what it would have been going to the left hand seat in my last company.
The novelty of a command would have quickly worn off after 5 early starts in a row... |
Hi guys,
May I ask, as well, what you think about waiting for a LHS upgrade in a turboprop or moving to a jet (737, A320...) ? I'm in my late 20ies, not ready to be upgraded yet, but enough hours to move on. If I wait for the upgrade, I'm afraid that I would have to start again anyway as a FO in a jet. And as lifestyle would be the same, I'm not sure what would be the benefit of waiting for the upgrade... Thanks for sharing your experience and your advice. |
Le nautilus, that's exactly what I was going to post until I scrolled down and saw that u had beaten me to it!
Could a guy for example who has a couple of years command experience on turbo props get fast tracked into the LHS seat of a jet after switching over? After all, he already has the command experience and all that, just needs to get used to the different handling characteristics of the jet. |
Why?
I know this might sound stupid but:
Would you turn down a command offer on B737 (on a sh***y airline to leave for greener pastures? Let's say EK,EY and fly long haul? I know on paper (ok pprune) this option may sound good, but do you think the reality is ? All of the crap aside, it still is flying one jet from one airport to another. It is just a JOB!!!! Not any better, not any worse. Just a different perspective is all. And one last point, what do you think the industry will be like in 5 more years.............? My $0.02 worth |
Hej Badboy,
For sure, we are more than 2 interested in the answer to this question :) In my airline, some captains say it's better to move to a jet as soon as you have an opportunity since experience on a jet is more valuable. Some other say it's good to have get a quick upgrade and then wait for some training duties (line training captain, tri/e) as this can also be very quick and be a big asset when you move on. Obviously, all the pilots I talk with have not flown a jet yet so they may not have all the elements to answer. And that's why I expect here that some of you (with more "experience") will give their opinion: for a pilot is an experience as a captain on a turboprop an advantage when moving as a FO to a jet? what is the faster track to the LHS on a jet? some say flying a jet is not as fun as flying a turboprop, in that case it might be more interesting to spend more time in the tp...? etc. Cheers (sorry if my english is not perfect! :uhoh:) |
Thanks to anyone who replied so far.
LeNautilus and badboy raggamuffin: It depends on the airline you're working for. If there's a chance to go for a jet (B737,A320) I would take that opportunity since the hours on jets are more valuable. Unless you could get the upgrade on Props then move to jets within a year or two, that would be a different case. |
It is either BA or Virgin (sorry not sure which!) who state that they want X amount of hours on either a Boeing A/C or a Airbus...
So in my opinion I would jump of the turboprops if you can secure a boeing / airbus job and start building up your Jet hours. Only my 2p worth... |
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