Although it was almost 5 years ago, I was specifically asked at my Ryr interview if I had the money to pay for the TR.

I said the Bank were willing to lend, and that seemed to tick the last box post sim check.

So therefore although they had already decided they wanted me.. Had I said no I don't have the cash.. well there would have been no offer. Maybe that process has changed now, I don't know.

My job offer in my case anyway, was therefore based on my ability to pay.

Do RYR use their own tri/e for the training. I could sure use some guidance from a TRI who has been a pilot for 4yrs or a tre who has been a capt for less than two yrs, and a pilot for four.

I think if i was fessing up the dosh I would like some experience teaching me not a trained ape repeating what he was told.:8

Cloud Bunny,
By actually showing up, you are declaring your willingness to part with money. Obviously many suitable candidates don't show up as they are unwilling/unable to pay.
By the very fact that only those willing to pay show up, self selection has already taken place. To suggest that anything other willingness to pay is the prime selection factor is thus nonsense. A selection is being made the moment you make the application. Thereafter, all other selection decisions are made on the basis that you will be prepared to cough up.

Camel Hair takes the not insubstantial salary and whines more than a CFM56 on a 22K derate.
If you are so unhappy put your money where your big mouth is and push off to the greener grass elsewhere; otherwise shut the :mad: up whining about Ryanair.
No rational argument is ever going to change your misguided viewpoint.

Ouch Mr S, touched a nerve have I?!
Not sure where I'm going wrong. It's so very simple, if you are not willing to pay up, you won't get the job. Doesn't matter how good you are, you're not paying, you're not in. In this scenario, it's hard to see how willingness pay is not the primary factor.
You must be talking about the lowest jet salary in Western Europe. Not insubstantial compared to the dole. Pretty damn poor when compared to any other airline.
Truth hurts eh? Dissemination of the facts is not whining dear boy.

I agree with slim, at no point in the interview was I asked about funds for the TR. Ryanair are turning people down if they don't make the grade in the sim/interview even if they have the funds to pay.

This just goes to show you can't just arrive at the interveiw with with 20k in your sky rocket(pocket) and expect a place on the TR course, you have to make the grade.:ugh:

Fireboy,
If you made the grade but didn't have the money to pay, would you have gotten the job?
Q.E.D.

of course, 20k is not enough, you need to pass their selections. they have so many of 200h pilot ready to pay.
they can even ask 30k if the decide to and wanabes will pay if they decide to pay.
this is not only at ryanair, but in many other airlines the same "ripoff".this industry stinks! I just hope to find a good company for myself.
God bless you!

It's a very big problem, but it seems to be the way the industry is going, even Bmi regional make you pay for the TR on the emb135/145 £2000 up front then £163pm total cost £12000. I know with FR you need to pay the toal up front but even with Bmi regional you still pay, Jet 2 is another, I think.

Camel, you need to make the grade to get offered a place on the FR TR, it would be a waste of time for the applicant and FR to have someone sitting on the flight deck who couldn't cope with the pressure but had 20k to spend and at the end of line training FR say thanks but no thanks, whats the point in that.

Yep they certainly do, not everyone gets in just because they have the cash as FR can still pick and choose. However, if you dont have the funds then you wont be getting the job ether. There are pilots out there who are willing to pay for hours on type and work for free so of course MOL is going to take full advantage.

Forgive me for trying to get a thread on track again, but can anyone give me some indication of how much they earnt in their first year with Ryanair? Just salary, preferably before and after tax, before expenses and loan payments etc..

Horgy

pay not attention to camelhair
 

the guys a jerk. i can understand him being pissed of with ryr due to the treatment of us pilots and cabin crew, but i think the pay is pretty good compared to other airlines -camelhair calls ryr "the lowest jet salary in Western Europe". thats rubbish.

the pay for the first 6-9 months is rubbish however. you wont get much during your training, along with zero sector pay (which now makes up around 60% of my take home pay). yes it's a struggle up till a time when you've signed a contract and on full sector pay.

but if you're at a point where you're trying to get into an airline for your first job, then i'd assume you've had at least 6 months of struggle without a job anyway. i now take home over 3k a month. thats about 2500 more than when i was doing temping work, about 2000 more than when i was a flight instructor and around 1500 more than some of my mates who are flying for airline who pay less. YES- camelhair, believe it or not there are some salaries in western europe less than ryr, even on jets.

my advice to those pilots whose heads are stuck in the 80's and 90's where pilots where celebrities and on huge salaries is to be pissed off in your own time and quit moaning about it, bringing down others and attempting to put them off ever thinking about starting a career in aviation.

if you stay out of the politics and treat ryanair as they fully expect to be treated (i.e. stay there for a few years, gain command, have a couple more years on the left then leave) then they are a great airline to join. who else takes on cadets with almost zero hours, puts them in brand new 737-800s, pays them well (ok, after the first 9months) and gives them the chance to be captains after 3 years.

the initial payment of a type rating is peanuts. look at how much youve paid already and go for it. its definitely worth it. i know i havent helped steer this thread away from the argument it was turning into! sorry about that Mr Horgy! just pm me and ill answer any questions you've got as best i can.

b.bear

Can anyone enlighten us on what the score is if you have stumped up 'all this dosh', finish the sim but bomb out on the base training. Will RYR offer some more training to get you through, or will they show you the door with no type rating to show for 'all that dosh'?

RAT 5,

To answer your question, I know of two guys who struggled on their base check. They were put in the sim at EMA for a few more hours (At FR's expense) and then went back up in the real thing to do their circuits again. They both passed and are now flying the line.

Mr Horgy,

I made £35k net (From Cadet to FO) in my one and only year at Ryanair as a PAYE employee. I was fortunate in that I was through my line training in six weeks and then straight onto a Ryanair contract and half sector pay for the first six months. (I say fortunate because some guys are a little unlucky with the continuity of their line training and it may take a bit longer)..

During that six month period of half sector pay, you will get a lot of flying done believe me. This is because you're fifty percent cheaper to have flying than a FO who is out of that six month period.

BongleBear
Your post is what this whole thread is about. Terms and Conditions !!!
You say you take home £3000 a month. Well, good for you.
How much of that do you spend on your own food and water at work? How much of that is your car park pass? How much of that is your uniform and dry cleaning? How much of that is for transport to and from sims? How much of that is for accommodation at the sim?
A not insignificant sum
On top of that, how much do FR pay into your pension? How much do FR contribute to your death in service benefits? How much do FR contribute to loss of licence insurance? How much do FR contribute to PHI income insurance?
Absolutely nothing
You get my drift, the job is cr@p..... and it's because muppets similar to you think that you are well rewarded. You aren't. You are badly paid and work hard for that privilege.
Contrast your position to a legacy carrier, such as Virgin or BA (where all pilots should be aiming their terms and conditions). A first year FO at Virgin takes home £3400 a month (for no more than 760 hours a year) PLUS allowances downroute, gets all the above benefits (and more) and a 15% company contribution to a pension, on ALL pay including flight pay, except overtime.
That's not bragging. It's where terms and conditions should be. If not better.
Wake up and smell the coffee (that you had to provide yourself of course).

Thanks for the feedback guys, I appreciate the time people are taking to message me and answer my question.

Stansdead, although I agree with you in theory, I notice that Virgin and BA aren't taking 200 hour wanabees on, and throwing benefits at them. BA take Oxford bods, but have you looked at the cadet salary scales? It's worse than Ryanair in some cases!

People also say instructing is better - I don't see pension, salary, loss of license insurance, (insert benefit) provided there either, yet thats a better option?

I've personally taken a long hard look at Ryanair. Where else can you get a job fresh out of school flying a jet doing 900 hours a year on an interesting and varied route network. Sure the pay isn't great, but it's going to be better than sitting on arse moaning on Pprune. And after all, I can go to BA when I have my 500 hours anyway, which will be roughly 6 months of flying at RYR. Unless (heaven forbid) I actually enjoy working for RYR? Who'd have thought it, I am getting a nice sprinkling of PM's from people who are actually pretty happy.

Horgy

MrHorgy

But it is not only 200 hour pilots who pay for type ratings with FR is it?

Everybody seems to. If people just said no for ONE month, FR would change their tune. QUICKLY.

How can you compare ryanair to virgin?! yes the t's & c's are better with virgin, and the pay may even be better. but it's chalk and cheese. mr horgy is asking for comments on a low houred pilot joining his/hers first airline. and if you look back at my post you'll see that im talking about being at ryanair for a few years, gaining work and life experience, then moving on to one of the airlines youve named. for an answer on those people who have thousands of hours experience and still choose to join ryanair- you'd have to ask them. however id expect them to explain that they know theyre getting treated poorly, they are home every night, have a fixed roster and know when they'll be home, and have great staff travel benefits- especially if they live away from their base. for those who have families these points are extremely important. believe it or not some people are prepared to sacrifice payment to cover travel, uniform and dry cleaning for the extra time they get to spend with their family. how would a new dad find it with a random roster flying long haul?

so why do people choose to pay to join ryanair? it just suits some people.

Stansdead
I work for ryanair and a good friend of mine works for Virgin and I do earn more than him. £3000 pounds a month is bulls++t i took home £4450 last month.. How much did you earn as a F/O.
Pay for a hotel twice a year really does not break the bank.
Taking healthy food to work is maybe better than eating the Sh+t you might get served full of fat.
Pension I have my own.. Plus enough net pay to afford 5 houses
How many do you have. Do you really think your pension is worth that much
Love sausage :D

not bad..
 

Well said sausagefinger, Im with RYR now, and enjoy it! Have paid for my type myself, home every night, brand spanking new airplanes that are xtremely well maintained.
I don't want longhaul, don't want to be away from my family for days in a row, and honestly I have eaten enough infested crewfood in my life to manage without for the rest of it!!!!

Careerwise, I bet cadets that stay on with RYR will make more money than anyone in a so called lecay-airline will make over their 40year career. Upgrade to captain at age 25, put away £15k in a pension fund a year for 15 years plus the company contribution(£5K), let that money swell till you retire and have a good laugh at your friends that decided to "wait it out" in order to not pay for a rating. They got a job with BA at 28, with luck captains at 42 at the lowest payscale, lowest on the bidding list. They will do London-Manchester in the weekends for the next two years.

Depending on how you look on it RYR may not be so bad, it sure is a lot of airlines out there where you are worse off!!!!

Question at the end here: Is there really a need to tell people they are stupid just because they have invested in their future?

Just wanted to say thanks for all the people that have contributed positively to this discussion.
I'm fresh out of OAT, with an interview with Ryanair this week - so am keen to hear as much about the company as possible.
I'm married, with a 3 year old daughter and another due in April - so share the sentiment previously mentioned about not wanting long haul, not wanting to be away from family for days at a time.

I'd be interested to hear from the guys who do have things to say about Ryanair that they don't want to air in open forum.

Many thanks

Hey guys,

I passed selection recently and have been offered a place on a 'Ryanair Training Course'. I have received my 'fixed-term training contract' as a .pdf via email. The contract clearly outlines my responsibilities and liabilities.

Section 3 Highlights the 'term'. It states that the contract will terminate 6 months from completion of base check. For this period I will be on E15,000 pa gross. (=£749 pm net).

Some guys have said that Line Training can be completed as early as 6 weeks from the base check. The presentation at the open day informed us that after successful completion of line training, cadets are offered the standard contracts (most likely Brookfield). I have heard some FR pilots say this as well.

Can any peeps who have completed line training recently confirm this?
If so was your contract also titled as a 'fixed-term training contract' ?

Its just bugging me a little that I may finish my line training after say 2 months, I'm then released to fly the line fully without a training captain but I am retained on the low take home for another 4 months. (That would be a bit of a p*ss take).

Can any peeps who have recently started on standard Brookfield contracts also offer any advice on how they are managing themselves as sole traders/limited companies, offering any general pointers on how this works in relation to the agency?

Please pm if you wish.

Many thanks.. :ok:

As we all know, you cannot guarantee the take home figure will be the same month on month in FR. Before I left the company I sat on my ass for two months surviving on my basic pay of £1700 which was tough, is this still going on? As far as the benefits go with legacy airlines all well and good but there is no way I will be relying on the super annuation to get me through in later life, hopefully make the money on housing allowance etc. This I suppose is the benefit of ryr, quick command invest wisely then get out of the company as soon as possible.

me too sausage - I calculated my work related expenses and it was only a weeks flying.

Dry cleaning? Do some companies pay for your clothes to be cleaned?

I get a delicious/appropriate meal every day better than 'orrible crew food. I am home every night, I get absolutely no hassle what-so-ever from crewing etc and I get between £4k and £4.5k a month net.

I paid for my rating many years ago when it was a lot cheaper but look where I am now - not sitting on the bench.

Anybody would be a fool to turn down an opportunity on principle.

sausagefingers

I took home £3750 last month after my pension contribution, for an 85 hour month. Plus allowances downroute. On top of that nearly £1000 went into my Virgin pension.

I have more than one property too. That's not the discussion topic here you know. Who, as a pilot ,doesn't own more than their primary residence now? It's nothing special, so get over it. House prices can go down too..... I am acutely aware of that currently.

As a new dad I quite enjoy my 16 average DAYS OFF per month thanks on my "random" roster".

I am not trying to turn this into a mine is bigger than yours argument..... I merely was alluding to the fact that people like you think you are better off than you are. You could earn so much more than you do if you all stood up against O'leary.

I am glad you earned £4500 last month. Please tell everyone how much you will earn in January or February when the sector pay cheques dry up? About half that maybe?

Chalk and Cheese maybe, but why not accept that you should be aiming for better terms and conditions? Surely that has to be the aim doesn't it?

At the end of the day its up to you what you are happy with. I spent over 12 years with them and i was very glad to get out. Alot of people who post here like myself remember the good old days when it was a nice place to work before MOL went nuts and turned it into what it is today. People have asked what it is like to work there now and we have posted why we think it is not a nice place to work. I know guys who are living on £600 a month which is a disgrace. New fancy airplanes or not, people are leaving very quickly and that is one of the reasons that routes are being cut and 7 aircraft grounded for the winter. I really enjoy my new company and i am very glad i gained great experience and met some great folk but it is not an airline that i would look at long term. You are only as good to them for as long as it suites them. If you refuse to do anything for them no matter how many times you have gone out of you way to help them , they will be after you. When you hand in your notice they will make you give them 3 months notices and they will not fly you because as i was told by a base captain that they will leave you on standby so you dont get any sector pay. Now if thats the way they treat people you can see why alot of us here have no time for them. If anything happens to you on line and you make a mistake you are on your own. It has been proved many time overs. I hope most of you who join get what you want out of them and move on but remember when asked what we think we will tell why its a nasty company because of what we have seen over many years and not just what we have read here.

Good luck

:D

So let me get this right, as a long time FR pilot, I tell it like it is and this, to some wannabe who doesn't like what I'm saying, make me a jerk!

Stansdead is the only person talking any sense on this thread. It's the likes of all these wannabes, not even in FR, who think they are being well rewarded, that is screwing this profession.
All this rubbish, I earn this at FR vs that elsewhere. Yeah, but you don't pay for your rating elsewhere and you have a pension, sick pay, loss of licence etc etc etc. In your astonishing arrogance, do you all think you'll never get sick, never risk loosing your licence and never retire??
All told, the FR package is the lowest of a jet pilot in Western Europe. Sorry to rain on your parade boys. Anyway, you better get used to disappointment as it awaits you at every turn in ryanair.

Nail on the head. That said, it's not chalk and cheese either. Fr affects all. If you're perpared to work for $hit in fr, all anyone else needs do is pitch slightly above that, $hit + 1 if you like. You're cutting your own throats and everyone elses.

Sits back to wait for Bongles "expert and experienced" riposte.

I am glad you earned £4500 last month. Please tell everyone how much you will earn in January or February when the sector pay cheques dry up? About half that maybe?

As a RYR UK FO my take home is fairly consistant at around £2800 but as said above you get nothing else and pay for everything. In my view its not to bad and compares with alot of UK airlines but lags miles behind the likes of Easy when all the extras are added.

Oh so true CamelHair..! The lowest common denominator drives the market..

I've seen this in other countries too... hate to say it but this happened a while ago across the pond with certain sectors of the industry - guys prepared to pay to work, one operator with crap t&c's - suddenly presto! all the other operators know they can also start to dilute t&c's, save money where they never previously could and we all bend over...

So now you have a whole new market developing - TRTO's cutting back a slice to the airline for the SSTR, airlines saving big time and all of us getting royally b*ggered...so much for unity!

Forgive me for once more trying to get this thread on track - perhaps a mod could step in and tidy up some of the scrum that seems to be overflowing.

I, like Diamond_Dog, am also interested in what sort of tax/Ltd company arrangements people at Brookfield/RYR have. if you don't want to trawl through this, then please feel free to PM me.

Horgy

Stansdead check your pm's thanks :ok:

Hey guys,

I passed selection recently and have been offered a place on a 'Ryanair Training Course'. I have received my 'fixed-term training contract' as a .pdf via email. The contract clearly outlines my responsibilities and liabilities.

Section 3 Highlights the 'term'. It states that the contract will terminate 6 months from completion of base check. For this period I will be on E15,000 pa gross. (=£749 pm net).

Some guys have said that Line Training can be completed as early as 6 weeks from the base check. The presentation at the open day informed us that after successful completion of line training, cadets are offered the standard contracts (most likely Brookfield). I have heard some FR pilots say this as well.

Can any peeps who have completed line training recently confirm this?
If so was your contract also titled as a 'fixed-term training contract' ?

Its just bugging me a little that I may finish my line training after say 2 months, I'm then released to fly the line fully without a training captain but I am retained on the low take home for another 4 months. (That would be a bit of a p*ss take).

Can any peeps who have recently started on standard Brookfield contracts also offer any advice on how they are managing themselves as sole traders/limited companies, offering any general pointers on how this works in relation to the agency?

Please pm if you wish.

Many thanks.. :ok:

Sorry to post this again. Just wanted to make sure it wasn't in invisible ink the first time round. Pressman, thanks for focusing on what I was trying to say.. Can anyone else shed light specifically on what I was asking.

Cheers..

camelhair you are a jerk, get the point! people like myself are trying to say that it's a great place to start, then move on. answer me this: what other airlines take on low houred pilots who can then gain 2500 jet hours in a few years? if it's so bad and other airlines are so much better, then why are you there?!

I think the point is more that places like RYR are changing the dynamic of the pilot employment market. If other companies follow suit, apart from a dilution of t&c's from what they used to be (which has been a progressive but direct result of low houred guys desperate for work submitting to such conditions) its going to be a case of "those who can afford to fly will" Ultimately the market is being commanded by your ability to spend, not your ability to fly...QED...

The airline cashes in, and those guys who have worked hard through their training, but neither want / have the ability to finance the SSTR, are left out in the cold. That's a very sad state of affairs, because ultimately we have all lost out due to the phenomenon of SSTR! The SSTR guy is 25K down compared to the way things used to be, and the guy who can't foot the bill for the SSTR is sitting on his arse or instructing on 172's....

Thumbs down all around mate....:(

it is worth remembering that no matter what FR or Brookfield tell you, that if you are working in the UK and living in the UK, or the "centre of your life" is deemed to be in the UK, you WILL be eligible to pay UK income tax.

That's the end of the matter, there is no short cut to not paying tax in UK.

Elsewhere, who knows, but to try and eke more money out of FR by tax loopholes shows just how terrible things have got in our industry.:confused:

Such a carefully thought out and erudite reply; have you ever thought about a career in the Diplomatic Corps?

Finals the market has always being dominated by "those who can afford to fly will”. Apart from the military or ab intio cadet programs it has always being pay to fly. PPL, IR, CPL, ATPL, who paid for yours? SSTR is just an extension of what has being going on for years. At least with FR you have a job after spending the dosh. How much were you guaranteed when you started your ATPL ?

Hard to believe but at one time airlines hired pilots off the ramp and trained them from zero hours but that is no longer the case. If enough people stop turning up that will be the case again but until then Ryanair and everyone else will pay as little as they can to get the labor they need.

If the pilots in the UK and elsewhere want to change this stop blaming the people at the bottom with zero leverage and start doing something. The old model of captive customers getting stuffed to pay for what ever deal the monopolies made with their labor are long gone.

SSTR is not an extension, its an option. An option most people with SJS (Shiny Jet Syndrome) have. Is it fair though that because of Ryanair the whole market has to change? NO!

I think a lot of the pilots are asking others to take a "look at the whole picture" and not just themselves. As a student I might go the CFI route just to improve hours, gain some experience and move foward with a career at a "major" or an airline that bonds you for a couple of years. Getting the hours under my belt.

However I do say another way to combat this is to get GA back. General Aviation is what is causing low hours and because of that you people over the pond are suffering. (Just a thought)

This is an amazing thread creep. The guy only asked for advice in relation to the inital outlay he would have to fork out during his Type Rating.

As usual, whenever Ryanair is mentioned, the is a diversion, the genesis of which focuses upon the "scandal" of paying for additional training or working for Ryanair.

The guy has made his choice and decided for whatever reason, that he is going to pay for a type rating and commence his airline career with Ryanair. I for one wish him the best of luck despite my previously posted misgivings.

Perhaps some of the old timers out there, rather than shake their heads at us younger guys, care to cast their minds rear wards and recall the day when paying for a Type Rating was first introduced. And then hang their heads in shame for not taking the airlines on over the issue and saving this career for future generations.

But the old timers didn't, because "it didn't affect them". Selfish, self serving and very short sighted. It's not the "youth" of today who have created the problem of SSTR, it's the older wiser pilots who should have known better at least a decade ago.

Bravo!!!!! :D:D:D:D