UA/AA
 

which one should i go for ? time to command/ pay etc??
Any help?

I've never met anyone who had that choice. I'd say the first to offer would be a "no-brainer".

Flythebus,


My choice would be United. AA has acquired TWA and I am sure you'll find pilot integration problems sometime soon.

While United is in talks to acquire USAirways, there is a good chance that it will not happen for antitrust concerns.

United has, in my opinion, a better fleet of airplanes than American - UAL operates 747-400s, 777s (the biggest fleet in the world), 757s/767s, A320s and B737s (with a few B727s hanging on). AA operates 777s, 757s/767s, A300-600s, 737-800s, FK100s and a boat-load of crappy MD-80s (various models).

When you add in United's new pay deal, it should be the obvious choice...

Of course, either one is better than neither at all.

Thanks a lot for the info. I do agree, the UA fleet is more attracting to me as i currently fly the A330/A340.
I was looking for site with the payscales maybe but i guess it is not open to the public. the latest payscales i have are the UA 2000.
Any help??

Just one question sir.

Why on earth do you want to leave an A330/340 slot to go and sit right seat on a 737 flying a boatload of short days, or if your lucky as a junior junior 757/767 slot sucking hind tit to a bunch of grey hairs at a domestic only domicile (The home by 5 crowd)? Oh not to mention on the 757/767 you’ll spend 18 months minimum on reserve flying cleanup for the hub runs, i.e. DEN-IAD, DEN-LAX, DEN-SFO.

UAL hires into the right seat of the 757/767 but unless you have the proper plumbing or are part Cherokee-Israeli-Hindu and part Dodge Dart you don’t have a snowballs chance in hell of snagging one of those slots.
Odds are better you’ll win the lottery.

SLUF

Very interesting. I do not have much experience with how the US Airlines run the show as i have been flying 15 years in Europe and the Middle east. I certainly enjoy the 330/340 but i thought about the idea of having a job with the majors back in the US.
Maybe not such a great move then!

FTB,

I do not know the conditions where you work, ie taxes, pay, scheduling. Having said that, while it is true, that the pay at the majors is very, very good, it is purely seniority based and some of the arguments put forth here are valid. Also considering the "upheaval" currently going on in the US, more specifically UA still pursuing USAirways and Americans recent purchase of TWA. Who knows what will transpire with regards to seniority as well as furloughs, considering that the economy appears to be "slowing", as it was so gently put.

If you desire to return to the US for pressing personal reasons, I would certainly consider it, but the grass is not much greener here.

It is a hard choice and only one you can make. Best of luck.

D8

Thanks D8
I am currently working tax free and the package includes free accomodation and utilities, medical and schools for the children. The little problem is as a commander you will be making about $90000 to $100000 per annum while in the US you will be earning at three times as much flying the same wide bodies.
I will think about it . I believe the current time to command with the majors is between 5 and 8 years so i will have to take a paycut for the first few years.

Is that pay you currently get "net" or "gross"?
Count the others costs of living you´re getting paid, too.
Unless you would want to live in the US, your current bottom line might be just as good after all...

But then, I don´t know where you work, if you or your family want to stay etc.?...(Are you bored of DXB after 10 yrs, kids older than 13...)

That's net.
Any idea what the majors in the US are paying net?

FlyTheBus, for now, I can only quote first years in gross dollars for 727 SO, DC-9 FO at one of the "big four" carriers. 2001 rates apply here. 727 SO: 1st yr-$36.06/hr, 2nd-$72.19. With us, everybody can leave the SO seat by the end of the first year, and many, many start on the DC-9.

DC-9 1st-$36.06, 2nd-$80.22. 3rd-$97.04. A DC-9 Captain with them can net about $5600 on one check and $4,000 on the end of month check, including not quite max deductions for 401k and minimum in other areas. This might include an extra 4:15 extra hours on a day off, a little over the max monthly 80 or 78 hours, according to my buddy.

You might just subtract about %25 for typical federal tax withholding-a few states still have no state income tax (maybe Texas, plus TN...), but maybe all have about %8 retail sales tax, as you might know. If you avoid states such as CA, NY, especially MI and MN (yech!) or other upper midwest or east coast places, you should come out ahead due to their very high state/ property/car/dog/kitty litter/rodent/oxygen/water...taxes.

Minnesota is especially "too big for its breeches", considering the mild tropical climate. It only feels like Solzhenytsin's gulag.

[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 06 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 07 May 2001).]

"IG" thanks for the info i highly appreciate it as it helps me make up my mind.
Another question that comes to mind is what would time to command be like with the "big four" ? I know it varies considerably !
Regarding the 401k plan, any idea what the figures would be after say 25/30 years service?
once again thanks a lot.

Flythebus,
This is the info I've got on UA.
1yr B737-500 pay 47.63 rising to 119.64 at year five.
10 yr 737-500 Capt. 195.65
757 232.12
DC10 250.00
777 277.33
7474 302.04
These are May 01 rates
Minimum Federal tax bracket is 15% rising to a top rate of 39.6%
deductions for kids, mortgage interest, and charitable contibutions
I'm in the highest tax bracket but payed about 23% in Federal taxes (lots of kids, captains house, etc.)
You'll pay 7.5% on the first 58,000 you earn for Social Security and about 1% on all the rest for Medicare.
state and local taxes vary; a good source for state tax information is www.bobbrinker.com
DAL rates are 1% higher
DAL, rumor has it will start hiring 80 per month soon
AA in negotiations now; they want more.
All these figures are approximate; but not to far of the mark.
Good luck.
BTW tax reform is imminent.

flythebus,
Another good sight for some contract summaries is www.airlinepilots.com

flythebus,
401K plan current contribution rate is 10,500 USD per year. Most airlines put money in these plans too. Legislation in the Congress should, if passed, raise this to 15,000 USD over the next five years or so. Compounding interest can be calculated with the "rule of 72". Basicaly to determine how often you double your money divide the expected return into 72. Expect 7.2% annuall return? Then your money doubles in ten years. There's probably a lot smarter people out here than me who can explain it better, but you get the picture. This is called a defined contribution plan. Most airlines also have a defined benifits plan also. These plans work along these lines. A pilots average earnings for the last ten years of his carrer is multiplied by a factor, a negotiated number, and then multiplied times his number of years of service. Say you were a UAL 747-400 capt. for the last ten years of your carrrer making 302,000 per year. With 30 years seniority and a multiplier of say 2% (my airline's is 1.9%). Then you would recieve 60% of 302,000 for the rest of your life. These benefits are sometimes paid for by an annuity that the airline has purchased upon the pilots retirement. His payout of a little more than 180,000 per year (tax law may limit that to 175,000) is the equivalent of having 3.5 million in the bank paying around 5% per year compound interest.

Very large point being glossed over there: "he will have the equivalent of 3.5 million in the bank". True, but the confirmed expat will ACTUALLY have the 3.5 million in the bank and so will his survivors. It's apples and oranges, mate.

Dropp,
I wasn't glossing, I almost always forget to floss too. I was just defining the "phantom assets" inherent in a defined benefits type plan.

Thanks again Critcaact that is all good information .
The pay here in the middle east when you consider the whole package is not that far off when you take the tax out of the US salaries. However for job security it is best to come back to the US!!
Another question if you may, what would be the average time to command with the majors? Do they still employ you as a F/E for a couple of years? Because it would mean a serious paycut while operating as a F/E.
thanks

[This message has been edited by flythebus (edited 07 May 2001).]

I made the move from mid-east B-747 Capt. to US major F/O a few years ago. (Have worked in Asia also.) Paycut was short lived, security & insurance are great (out 6 months with ski injury, sick leave and insurance combined made my income about 90% of normal), work rules wonderful( commonly get 16-18 days off per month), and pay just keeps getting better and better(right time, right place is a lot of that, but even on the bottom you can't complain). Let us not forget, you get to live in the US of A. After 13 years living overseas and just visiting here, I had forgotten just how much freedom we have, and how great the living standard is. If you play the game well you can take a good income, invest smartly, and be rich in 10-15 years. If I had started this when I was 25 rather then 45 I would be ready to retire now.

Taxes can be easily reduced with proper planing. (Payed 14% on over $175K gross using deductions for real estate, 401K's, airplane business, ranching, etc.)

At my airline you have to have about 20 years senority to hold F/O as many retired Capt.s who mismanaged their lives, or have no life, fly as S/O's for a few years. Actually, they get checked out and call in sick for two years! In a few years there won't been any S/O's at the majors.

Your experience isn't going to count for much at the interview so don't get a big head. In fact take a course on how to interview if you are serious about this. In the US most airlines only give pilots a small imput as to who they hire. Frustrating, but just the way it is. If you don't have a green card or US Passport I wouldn't start packing your bags just yet. If you do, good luck. You won't be sorry that you made the move. The way I am treated I would rather be and F/O here then a Capt. at any of the ex-pat places I have flown at or even heard about.

Cheers.



------------------
ex-expat.

Bus-at one of the big four, more than half of the new hire seats are as FO, according to the monthly Flight Ops magazine. Years ago, Captain might take ten plus years, but for the time being, I've heard that now around five can apply-IF you are willing to be on reserve . It is usually best to avoid ever commuting while on reserve-many pilots regret that decision, when they have a choice. Your 12 days off are usually the only days available for travel (crew schedulers here rarely let pilots leave their base until the end of the last reserve day-they are not even aware that we would do them more favors, if they would reciprocate), which means very few nights at home per month, even if you are senior enough to get them in blocks of four or even a five-day sequence. I found the contract comparison for all the six largest US carriers. If you need more hourly figures or daily credt guarantee, monthly maximums or minimums, duty rig, governance, job security language etc, just holler.

Of course most of this will change.

flythebus,
F/E's as has been noted are not very prevelant anymore. The only downside to being hired now is the possibility of a serious economic downturn, if it hasn't already occurred. If this were to happen I would expect furloughs to occur. The upside is that a furlough shouldn't last long because of, what I percieve of anyway, the gentrification of the seniority lists at the big four. In other words pilots are retiting in record rates. So then call backs from furloughs shouldn't take very long. At the airline I work for there are going to be about 150 retirements, out of 1400, pilots in the next five years. If you get an interview do your homework. There's a lot of information out there. I work for a small airline and there's even a guy who'll rent you a sim and teach you our sim check. It's probably worth every penny of it. If you don't spend the dough and don't get the job you'll be mad at yourself for a long time. Someone else has noted that your experience may not be of the utmost importance to the selection process. This is probably true to a certain extent. Human Resource departments really do seem to run the hiring show these day's. I guess I pulled the wool over their eyes big time. Good luck.

Flythebus,
As to your question regarding time to command that isn't always a concern anymore. Work rules now allow pilots to live just about anywhere they want and commute to work. Therefore equipment seniority might be more important. A senior F/O might have the same paycheck but a much better lifestyle than a junior Captain at the same airline. Anymore it really is just a matter of what spins your prop.