Perhaps the bmi Skipper forgot his wallet, he was therefore refused the upgrade?

Well gents I promise to do my homework, but at the end of the day FCO or no FCO, when that doors closed we move who we want. Sorry if that's news to you but it's the truth, and dispatchers often ask me to upgrade pax for one reason or another if that's the piece of the puzzle I'm missing. Ask your team next time your on board, the answers may suprise you. Maybe were just a bit more easy going at B.A.?. .. .P.S. exeng - Some of my collegues may not have made such constructive comments after that earlier post. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

my wife tells me that as far as upgrades go that dispatchers call the shots as well as duty managers authorizing upgrades from one class to another - not a two class jump - It should also be noted that any upgrade done 'on board' could technically effect the weight and balance of that cabin area albeit a small one but it could make a difference in trim. As far as the BMI capt. he would definitely be behind BA staff in the pecking order.. .. .PS The wife IS a BA dispatcher!

Trident I think you may be missing the point now. Anyone who is due or has the right to an upgrade gets it if there is room, that's not the issue. However if for example this BMI cap and his other half were travelling on his concessions and were travelling in the back. If there were 2 B.A. staff travelling in the same cabin they'd be upgraded first, sorry but that's what happens everywhere in every airline not just B.A. If there's room for everyone they all come up!! All providing no blocked seats due to A/C trim as Kerdunker has quite rightly stated. . .If B.A. and every other airline start hanging in-charge crewmembers for upgrading staff or circumventing the system, then I'm afraid there won't be any be many of us left out there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

Well KERDUNKER was close, but only one of the people he mentioned has exclusive authority to upgrade people. I sense a bit of a power struggle developing on this thread. I am fully aware of what goes on once the doors are closed (although, erm, obviously I've never benefited from that) but it should be fully understood that this practice is outside of the rules and could leave you in a tight spot should it backfire, so lets all proceed with caution.. . . . <small>[ 22 March 2002, 01:47: Message edited by: Hand Solo ]</small>

Shadowpurser. .. .Apologies for my missing post. I did post a reply to you, tried to edit it for spelling and grammar, the thread got locked and moved, and somehow I have managed to lose the whole thing completely in cyberspace.. .. .Anyway, so long as you are aware of how seriously BA might view some of your actions, that's the end of my input to this debate.

Fascinating thread.. .. .Maybe an insight into the way another European major handles upgrades could swing the focus onto commercial issues:. .. .Absolutely NO upgrades in flight (The migration through the cabin after the doors have been closed is a bit too transparent). .. .In the case of oversales, the sequence is high value pax from Business to First, the same criteria from Economy to Business and if there's still space, staff travel (own airline, alliance staff, others) to the ticketed class.. .Pretty simple and commercially sensible.. .And if staff do get upgraded to Business or First, they get the once-over at the gate to make sure that their dress and demeanour is appropriate.. .Might seem pretty restrictive, but the paying customer base turned out to be pretty critical of the previous "free for all" situation

Guys I agree it's time to end this debate because I don't think were going to resolve anything. All very interesting and enlightening though. . .. .I'm wondering if anyone found themselves on receiving end of "company favouritism" or "looking after your own" - and it was the difference between you and your family getting home that day or being stuck in an airport for 24hrs on the other side of the world, would you refuse those seats? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . .. .A final thought for everyone out there. . .. .Have you ever tried to manipulate the system when your on staff travel by asking a friend (crew or pilot) a favour, droping a note to the operating crew, asking for an upgrade on board? Or have you been operating and been asked for a favour by a pal and have "had a word" with someone? Be honest. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Perhaps not so much a power struggle as a fundamental difference in outlook & mentality between many cockpit and cabin crew?. .. .Anyone correct me please if they see it another way, since this is just a small pet theory of mine. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .For references; I live in 1 country and fly out of another so I travel back and forth to work on staff tickets. (US $ 92, UK £ 68 for a return trip). .. .Once at work I am in charge of the cabin of a 737, assorted types & sizes, and have to make decisions on upgrades every stretch I fly. (sorry exeng, but that's what it says in my manual <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ). .. .On this thread some of the cockpit people seem to have gotten stuck in "The Rules"; the way things are supposed to be done. This quite normal for cockpit people; if they were not that way inclined, they would not be suited to pilot commercial aircraft. . .In their world there is a procedure for almost everything laid down in Aircraft Operation Manuals, Basic Operation Manuals etc. They have to take note of NOTAMS & NOTOCS. The Captain also has to sign his name on the dotted line before each and every take-off. . .Sticking to the established procedure gives the greatest chance of safe execution of the flight. (and the smallest chance of ending up for tea and biccies with the chief pilot or getting one's name in the papers). .Which logically results in a certain rigidity in most pilots' outlook on rules and on how the rest of the world should treat rules and regulations.. .. .Cabin people also have manuals and SOP's. But since they deal more with people than machinery (yes yes yes I know, generalization..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> ) cabin people often find that to execute the flight in the most "commercially satisfying" manner, they have to bend, amend, circumvent, interpret, extrapolate and sometimes totally ignore the rules laid down by the company. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . .. .So if we can not stick by all the rules, who decides which ones, when and where and how to break them? . .Well, as a matter of fact, the CSD/Purser does. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .Using experience, judgement, and hopefully brain.. .Shock, horror, indignation! . .What are these uppity cows thinking of?? . .(........ why do FA's have 1 more brain cell than cows? So they don't sh!t in the aisle.....) . .This leaves your general cabin person with a somewhat more fluid outlook on rules and the application of same.. .. .And THAT difference in outlook is what IMHO is causing the lack of consensus on this thread.. . . . <small>[ 22 March 2002, 18:45: Message edited by: flapsforty ]</small>

Spot on Flaps.. .. .Quite a few years ago I flew longhaul on BA on an ID90/R2 with a priority lower than ballast weight. However, once seated way back in monkey a kind purser came down and asked if I would please follow him. Gathered my belongings certain that I was about to be off-loaded. But to my surprise he led me upstairs and placed me in a J-seat. Excellent service. During the +12 hour flight, I visited the cockpit and thanked the captain for the upgrade. He broke into a big smile and told me that he had nothing what-so-ever to do with that; he tended to concentrate on the stuff going on forward of the cockpit door and leave the cabin to the FA's, since "they work back there and I work up here". Seemed like a sensible approach to me, although it might not be in full compliance with company SOPs. But as Flaps has said, the strict procedures that cockpit crew so rigidly follow are not always applicable to the self loading freight, whether they have paid a full or reduced fare.. .. .In my days as a dispatcher for a handling company I saw the same things happening; Cabin Chief would come to the check-in desk and politely ask if we would upgrade this person, normally a friend or relative of the crew. We always complied because a) we were a handling agent and b) it would be stupid to argue rules and regulations with an operating crew. Yes, the rules were more often than not bent or overlooked, but that is one of the charming things about aviation when there are no safety concerns is it not ? The possibility that you can look out "for your own" and offer them the perk of an upgrade.. .. .For the balance shift when upgrading .... well, we trim aircraft for zero-fuel, take-off and landing weights. Ever noticed that as soon as the "fasten seat belt" sign is off a rather large number of people immediately gets up and head for the nearest lav ? I would imagine that +30 people getting up and moving around, not to mention the 10 or more FA's and their rather heavy trolleys running up and down the aisles, presents more of a weight shift than 1 or 2 in-flight upgrades. ..... not a pilot, but it would seem that the autopilot can easily cope with the constant in-flight balance shift from people moving around the cabing, and trim it out.. .. .Keep it up guys and girls, it is one of the charms of flying.

Ok have the relevent FCO now (Thank you), however if FCO 2177 was used against everyone who's broken it (or anyone who knows it is being broken), we'd have no planes in the air because there'd be no pilots, crew, dispatchers, groundstaff. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . .. .Similarly if we prossecuted everyone (Including children) who broke FCO 4004-app-11-2 which I incidently am VERY SERIOUS about and include in every crew briefing(Get your books out) we'd have no pax either. This goes back to my other collegues posts on how we are flexible and bend the rules sometimes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . .. .Similar situation to speed restrictions on the roads (70mph on a UK motorway, 30mph in built up areas etc.) the rules are there, but if everyone who broke them got points for it, well... we'd all be on public transport by now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . .. .We could sit here all day thumbing through FCO's and SOP's picking holes in the way each other operates. But would that really solve anything? If we go down that road then airlines have spent an awful amount of money on CRM for nothing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> . .. .WE ARE ALL TEAMS WITHIN A LARGER TEAM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

Toatally agree with Shadowpurser - In my experience the Captains interest in upgrades is confined to his immediate friends and family, I've never seen one take much interest in pax upgrades, thats usually left to the CSD.. .. .Mind you I did see one captain delay a flight by 30 min so that the engineers could fix a seat so that his wife could get on standby. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

Flip Flop Flyer,. .. .Small point to clear up any misconceptions: yes, the pilot/autopilot can handle any movement around the cabin by retrimming in flight. However, if a significant number of people have moved around the cabin before departure, then the trim setting given on the loadsheet will be incorrect. This could cause a nasty surprise to the handling pilot when his mate calls, 'Rotate'. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Brake ... beer, that goes without saying. Hence I wrote after the fasten seat belt sign has been switched off. Having said that, and speaking of big iron, would it be felt if you move say 2 x 80 kgs from row 50 steerage to single digit comfort ? I mean, a LMC can cover upwards of 500kg without calling for a new loadsheet, which equals to around 6 passengers.. .. ..... Or the PF would either think "damn, must find time to go to the gym" or look at his arms with a rather large smile mumbling "yeah, now the watch matches the arm" . .and ..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 22 March 2002, 16:45: Message edited by: Flip Flop Flyer ]</small>

Shadowpurser. .. .I agree with the way things are done as you do them. I hope those spouting FCOs at you were not proposing that you obey them exactly.... .. .What they were hinting at was:. .1. If you are going to disobey FCOs, by very careful about spouting it out loud. .2. At least if you are aware of the FCO you can ensure that whatever you do, you cover yourself, especially if the stuff starts hitting the fan. .. .Its not that pilots have a wedge of rule books and follow them blindly. We do have, though, knowledge of disciplinaries where the Mgmt will throw every little FCO transgression at us. So we are wary.... .. .IMHO - Keep it up!. .. .NoD

Cheers buddy! Managed to keep clear of trouble so far, comes with having a "unique style" that people seem to warm too (even management!). However always ready to take good advice on board. If it ever comes down to it, hopefully all those years of complementary letters and positive comments cards written by pax won't be in vain. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

Flip Flop Flyer,. .. .Sorry, thought you meant it might be OK to shift large numbers around in between the loadsheet and take-off. Anything within the LMC limits on most aircraft would not even be noticeable to PF on rotation. Hence the limits, I suppose.

Shadowpurser,. .. ."If someone came and "told" me who I was upgrading I would politely "tell them where to go". It's like me telling the pilots who's having their jump seat. It's their call and it just ain't done. Yeah Yeah Captain is A/C commander etc etc etc but at B.A. if anyone thinks or would like someone to be upgraded they ask the in-charge crew member first".. .. .I think you and I might be having a chat next time you fly with me and, as a hint of the tone,it won't be you doing the talking. I suggest you think very carefully before you write more and have a good think about your actual influence on the conduct of the flight versus your Walter Mitty perceptions.. .. .Fortunately, your 'unique' style has not only made you stand out to the pax but, combined with the rest of the info you've given on this site, led to your easy identification.. .. .Telling me where to go, politely or otherwise, would result in you no longer being part of my crew and probably lead to you having no further say in upgrades or anything else to do with the running of any BA aircraft. You're not in as lofty a position as you think you are, but rather than spout on further here, I'll be explaining command chains et al at our next meeting.. .. .PS: It's funny but, apart from charging a passenger's credit card, I see no mention of the SCCM being involved in upgrades at all in FCOs. Maybe those rules, under which you fly, will also form part of our 'chat'.

Well I'll have a go at calming things down here. I think Shadow may have been mis-interpreted and actually meant that none of his cabin crew or pax would be telling him who to upgrade, hence the 'being alone in bars' comment. I don't think it was intended as an attempt to usurp command of the aircraft! Staff travel actually isn't a right and it can be withdrawn by the company for reasons such as abuse of the system. This they can't do with your pay. We rightly expect our staff travel entitlement, but this is only in economy most of the time. Any unofficial upgrading is a welcome benefit.

Recover, I read your post about an hour ago.. .Re-read it to make sure I didn't misunderstand.. .Re-read the whole thread to see if I'd missed anything.. .Got out the vacuum cleaner and the mop and did the main floor to avoid posting while in a "state of agitation". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . .. .So, calm & perspective restored, I remain incredulous. The red letters at the bottom of the page come to mind. . .Surely no real BA Captain would react the way you do to the statement: As a purser ......it comes down to me sometimes who gets "china or plastic"??? Because that is, plain and simple, a fact of life!. .Maybe I overrate the intelligence required of captains at BA? . .Or maybe you are the ultimate, frightening embodiment of the archetypical but in our company blessedly mythical pilot whom I sketched on page 2 of this thread?. .Are you seriously threatening a fellow ppruner with disciplinary measures as a result of something posted here? . .I have a very very hard time getting my mind around that scenario. . .. .Not working for BA I can happily post here without fearing the likes of you. . .On our 737 fleet the entire pilot body would wonder if I had taken leave of my senses if I were to seek their permission everytime I upgrade a passenger. A 737 Purser who isn't able to make that decision alone would be regarded with grave misgivings in our mob. I reckon quite a few of our captains would laugh me out of the cockpit if I came to them with an upgrade question.. .The rest would be rather bemused. And worried about my lack of decisiveness.. .. .Recover, please have a good think about the realities of life on a 737.. .You are the boss, and we work under your overall responsability. And yes, you are responsable for everyone on your aircraft sticking to the rules.. .But the reality is that if we stuck to all the rules, we'd hardly ever take off........... .That is not theory from a manual, that is not speculation Recover, that is a hard fact of life!. .. .I repeat .....to execute the flight in the most "commercially satisfying" manner, cabin crew have to bend, amend, circumvent, interpret, extrapolate and sometimes totally ignore the rules laid down by the company. Seeing how we can not stick by all the rules, who decides which rules, when and where and how to break them? . .Well, as a matter of fact, the CSD/Purser does!. .Using experience, judgement, and hopefully brain.. .. .Recover, I am mercifully spared from having to work with captain's who have your mentality.. .Your post has made clear to me once again that I need to count my blessings regarding our company culture.. .. .Our pilots expext us Pursers/CSDs to do our jobs in the cabin in such a way as to make sure the pax return to fly with us next time 'round, while ensuring that all FA's strictly follow flight safety regulations & procedures.. .They are happy to help us when needed, they enquire how things are going "down the back" to make sure all is as it should be, but in 20 years flying I have only met 1 captain who actually interferes with the running of the cabin. . .By both the pilots and the FA's this man is universally regarded as a total f**kwit.. .. .Shadowpurser, time to wind in your neck mate, if this man is serious, the fact that you see the realities of life on the 737 much more clearly that he/she does, is NOT worth your job! . .. .Visual, Hand Solo explains succintly the difference between a perk and a right. . .A good point to keep in mind when traveling on a staff ticket.