Jimmy, the sauce hours are usually best kept to 9pm +

:}

FP

Comment moved.

Isn't LHC a shared account between MOL and one/+ of his senior pilot(s)?

Anyway...:/

How about the progress of discussions raging within AL about the relationship between BFS crews and DUB? Any news there?

FP

Entering a critical stage now...Seems like the airline will not budge from it's plans to hire the Belfast crews.

Side Show Dwarf.
 

While your petty squabble continues, as riveting as watching paint dry, the real story develops apace. Looks like its time for gloves off in Dublin.

Should be fun to watch.

How sad, though, to think that IALPA is going to be instrumental in Aer Lingus ending up here.

That means 1100 girls and guys applied without knowing the conditions.:ugh:
All my support to the old Aerlingus's chaps.:ok:
This bunch of desesperados or workingfornothing pilots erzats start pissing me of.:mad:
They started by paying for their type rating then working for nothing to build hours and afterwards accepting poor conditions to jump on the lefthand seat.
This will be my advice to senior managers: Watch your six, these guys will soon propose their services to get your position...
Ban on all over the World for them is the only and ultimate solution.
No fight, no glory!
An old fashion Captain

This poster is having trouble understanding the issues obviously.
Hiring Belfast crews is not the issue - their CONTRACT is the issue.

The poster (a non-pilot, on a pilots website!) denounced IALPA for threatening a strike before talking. Even though IALPA asked for talks and were refused by ALT!

Now the two sides are talking (the union backed down and allowed recruitment to continue during talks) and the chances are high the talks will fail because - more than likely - ALT will not compromise.

So, having backed down from a strike, compromised on talks arrangements, negotiated for 2 weeks - what will the posters reaction be when the pilots are forced to take industrial action again?
I guess he'll revert to type and blame the IALPA guys!

Talking is good, but sometimes its just a waste of effort, and a strategy for delaying the inevitable.

LHC is bawling for some attention.
Bugger off Leo.
Ever been banned?

That's not the issue Kremin, the airline's position was they did not have to talk prior to opening a new base outside the country and you damn well know it.

So now the talks are going on. If they airline goes ahead with hiring the crews on their terms according to local conditions, where does that leave everybody? After all the airline will have "talked" by then to the union.

Or does "talk" in pilot union speak mean the airline has to follow what the workers are telling them to do?! You forget who is running the airline here Kremin, it ain't you guys and the airline is under no obligation to follow diktats from a group of workers as to how the airline should operate.

I'll continue to post here as a retired pilot Kremin and there ain't a damn thing you can do about it and I know how that is just driving you mad.

But this is the real word Kremin, you seem to despise anyone who holds an alternative viewpoint to yours and seek to degrade them and throw hissy fits demanding they be banned!

You should be busy setting up this rivetting sounding pilots only forum I would have thought by now??

The above poster seems to forget that an airline needs pilots.
Without pilots to fly the aircraft, there is no airline, nothing to 'Manage'. End of story.

The pilots in an airline - just like all employees - have a legal and moral right to withdraw their labour when pushed to the limits by contract breaches.

This non-airline pilot poster thinks 'talks' mean a negotiated surrender by pilots. Patently he misunderstands the strength of conviction, and strength of purpose of the IALPA pilots.

The poster patently lacks the backbone necessary for survival in the modern airline industry, so its just as well he's out of it. Lucky man.

That's not the issue OneWorld22. Aer Lingus management were side stepping OUR COLLECTIVE AGREEMENTS when they wanted to implement a Belfast base using DEC's and the likes, agreements they voluntarily signed up to, and promised would be kept pre-IPO - and YOU damn well know it.

We have no problems living in the real world. We also would have no problems with Belfast AT ALL, if our contracts/agreements were honoured like they should be.

No papa2andcharlie, those agreements were for bases in the Republic of Ireland.

Belfast was never mentioned in prior discussions you had with AL management.

Kremin, you obviously don't fully realise the implications of militant behaviour like this, you could be threatening the very survival of the airline itself if prolonged action were taken over a simple issue of T's and C's for a base outside this jurisdiction. There are other groups who also have a stakeholding in AL, it's not just the pilots. Have you consulted with the other groups? All your other co-workers in AL to see how they feel about this? You're threatening their livliehoods as well you know...

But keep with the jibes, it's water off a ducks back.

papa2andcharlie, don't waste your time discussing Contractual obligations with that poster. He has already informed us on this very thread that he considers it acceptable to break Contractual obligations, thus inferring that he 'accepts' lying, and condones intentional breaches of faith.

He is clearly a dishonest individual without a shred of honour or self-respect. A self professed lover of lies, and a Troll of the lowest order.

Now he claims he is intimately familiar with the minutiae of Aer Lingus' SCOPE agreement!
Plainly, he is lying yet again, because plainly he is ignorant of the facts and utterly wrong. Yet he continues to spoof, spin, and lie.
How sick is that? Is the man delusional?

In any case, it wouldn't matrer to him what the SCOPE agreement said, as we can read in his own words below:

Kepp it coming Kremin. You're getting more hysterical by the minute.

I stated the above in the context that agreements do get broken and have done with the Labour Courts approval in certain situations. It's a fact of life.

And here you are still dodging the wider picture. Have you considered the implications of potential action on the other workers of Aer Lingus? Have you looked at the wider picture? A man who you detest is banging on the door of Aer Lingus. Your company already had to pay a fortune defending itself against his hostile attack and now you want to dictate that the airline cannot in fact open a new base and hire new pilots based on terms and conditons applicable to the local market, something any company should be able to do.

You've already shown you have a causal disregard for your customers Kremin, the people who ultimately keep your airline in business. Do you disregard the other workers so casually as well? Is this just about you? Do you not look at anybody else?

Your arrogance is astounding.

Seeing as it is obvious you have no idea what is provided for in our Job/Work Security agreement, (freely negotiated and signed up to by the company) nor our Seniority agreement (likewise) - statements like

" No papa2andcharlie, those agreements were for bases in the Republic of Ireland."

are farcical.

In fact, the sole purpose of your comments on this thread is now plain for all to see. You are a Troll who will argue for the sake of it, not for the valuable contribution it can provide.

There's no point in trying to explain ourselves any more to people who are doing the online equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears. You are refusing to listen or understand, instead repeating the rhetoric of "doesn't apply outside Ireland". Too bad, if you actually took some time to look into the full issue, (rather than banging the keyboard with your forehead every 5 mins), you may understand what this is all about.

"Belfast = Uk = Not Ireland = Nothing you can do about it" is far to simplistic for someone allegedly retired from this industry. It may make good reading in the Indo for the unwashed masses - but the reality is far from this stance.

I'm glad I'll never have the pleasure of your company in my flightdeck. I'd be afraid to turn my back.


* Edited to say that this was written before the last 2 posts, so may seem like I was repeating Capt Kremin, I'm not as fast a typer as you two are. :)

Do you think the Management were looking at anyone else when decided to award large share bonuses if they cut the T&C from workers?

Cant have it both ways OneWorld. If you claim Management can steam roll over agreements because it suits them at that time, then what's good for the goose...

How is it arrogance??

Lets look at the facts here.

Are your T's and C's under threat here in the ROI? NO

Is management asking you to take a pay cut? NO

Is management trying to alter your work practices? NO

The are simply trying to set up a base in another jurisdiction and hire crews under local conditions.

Yet in spite of all this, you are willing to ground your airline. The lost revenue, the screwing your customers, many of whom may never return and not just out of anger but because they will be unsure about using AL again if this action continues and also the potential damage this could do to your fellow workers.

I am painting the other side of the picture. And yet somehow this constitutes "trolling"!


(*internet chatroom rule No. 156. When someone disagrees with your viewpoint, accuse them of trolling)



It beggars belief.

Your head must be spinning from repeating yourself all day. What's even funnier is that you're not getting the right parts.

So to help you for the very last time, I'm going to put this into a small list.

1) The Job and Work security agreement does not apply to ROI pilots.
2) The Seniority Agreement does not apply to ROI pilots.

3) The Job and Work security agreement applies to an Aer Lingus pilot.
4) The Seniority Agreement applies to an Aer Lingus pilot.

5) A Belfast/Warsaw/Birmingham Aer Lingus pilot is just that. An Aer Lingus Pilot.

6) These agreements apply because they are between the company and its Pilots. Not between ROI pilots and the company. (If you had these docs you would have seen this).

7) Management have decided that it doesn't suit this time to follow these agreements, so are trying to get around them.
8) We will do what we have to, to prevent this.


Point 8 seems to be your problem. Apparently we should just sit back, shrug the shoulders and say "tis was grand in the old days.....such is life".

To be frank - I really DON'T care what you, a retired pilot thinks about all of this, your concern or lack of it, won't directly effect me.

However I do like to ensure that the drivel on here spouted by people without the correct info, is shown to be what it is....just drivel.

Enjoy your merry go round. It looks like your the only one on it.

Well said P2C.

If this thing gets in what's to stop the rostering of BFS crews on W patterns BFS-LHR-DUB-LHR-BFS? Or the reserving of all the LHR/ORK night stops for BFS based crews? Then over time maybe move one of the 330s to BFS?

And still the questions go unanswered! The other Aer Lingus workers, the customers etc etc all discarded...


It DOES apply to ROI pilots because AL only had ROI bases when you negotiated. You can't turn around when the airline opens up a base in another country and somehow claim that ROI agreements negotiated by ROI unions have validity in other countries! SIPTU/IMPACT/MANDATE etc etc have no authority in other countries. Pretending that somehow they do, doesn't make it so.

Wrong again. Prior to Belfast you only had ROI pilots. Surely common sense dictates that the opening of a new base starts the whole thing off again.

What kind of statement is that?? You telling me that Microsoft workers earn the same wage and earn the same conditions in Redmond as they do in other countries?!

Sorry lads, you're actually the only ones on this particular merry go round. In the court of public opinion, nobody is with you on this. And if this is really all you got, then you really are in trouble.

You don't care what I and other shareholders think, so why should we all care what you think? You want to bring this airline down, go right ahead.