Sounds like some FR Pilots wishing they WERE management. If Line pilots got on with flying the line and left the management to manage then all would be fine. It sounds to me that underneith it all the FR whingers admire MOL but cant quite get it to sit right with their egos as he might just be a little more succesful (and richer) than they are....

I don't think FR pilots are just fighting for more money here or even as one person said trying to be management.

I think it is about respecting employment law in the relevant countries and most of all respecting your front line employees which by all accounts FR do not do. If you are happy at FR, all the best to you. But when obviously well established and long term employees tell you there is a problem, there probably is....

There will be that day when you will have an issue with management and you will probably discover that FR is not such a rosy place after all. Until then enjoy bumbling along with your fingers in your ears while other people do the fighting for you. It seems like a win, win situation for you as you risk nothing but have maximum gain!

By the way I don't regard £80,000 for a Captain on a 737-800 to be that much money for 750-900hrs a year with no pension, no loss of licence, paying for sims, medicals, car parks, food and the rest of the stuff that comes with FR.

Maybe it is just me? That £80,000 is not a great deal for the type of flying in RYR when you take what you pay for. ;)

I didnt say they were fighting for one thing or another, just whinging. If the best they can do is whinge on here then all it is is just that. Whinging. I guess if you (i.e they) are FR Captains they have enough experience to go elsewhere so why not just do that. If half as much effort was put into transferring to the yet unamed mecca of T&C's we would all have a quieter life. I wrote a letter to MOL directly and he responded the next day. Direct action works - whinging doesnt. You cant blame him for that - I dont tolerate whinging from my 2 year old and she doesnt even get 80K a year.

alibaba
If I had flown 900 hours last year, it would have been near to the 90,000 that RYR advertise. Lets face it, since brown got hold of them, most pensions aren't woth a jot. The company pay for sim training (unless you are a contractor) The odd sandwich, a medical once a year etc, so what!
I agree, it is not the best job in aviation, yes, you can earn more money, but most of the whinging from so called RYR pilots on Pprune, in my opinion is way over the top.
For years, i have flown with people who asked, Why do rostering not roster us to max duty over min days, in order to give us more days off?
Now,at RYR, that is how i am rostered.
With regards to the other posters claiming concern as to their safety when flying with RYR. i have flown for a number of major carriers in the past and i see little or no difference in standards, or safety.
BALLSOUT.

very good flexy;)

T&C's can change when ever MOL wants them to without a blink of an eye and nobody can do anything. If people are happy to live in what ever base they and their families are happy to why should he be allowed change T&C's without a fight from somebody and thats what is happening here.

People who join now know what they are getting into but the Dublin based guys who are flying with RYR for years never signed up for what they have now. They are fighting for guys coming after them and aviation before every other airline follow his lead which alot of others have so far. You maybe next to have your T&C's changed and then we will see how you like it.

Yes he is a great business man and you have to tip your hat to him for what he has done for himself but i would tip my hat to any person who can do what he has done.

It is time to stop talking and do something that will make him take note. It should be all departments who stand up to him like the operation people because if they walk out the company will suffer and they are getting treated worse then flight deck.

Well Flexy I do hope that you treat your daughter with a little more care and respect than MOL treats its employees (and passengers, and contractors, and suppliers....) otherwise she would be quite entitled to a good whinge.

I would certainly not tip my hat for someone who treats other people the way MOL does. I have absolutely no respect for the way he runs Ryanair.

People going onto a professional pilots forum to express an opinion at the current state of employment practices in a company doesn't really constitute to being labelled whinging. I think expressing an opinion or stating the very worrying facts of working life in FR would be a little closer to the mark.

This is a forum after all and it is open for discussions about many various aviation related subjects.

I think many people who work for FR have very valid problems with the way FR conducts itself with reference to its staff and how it conducts itself as a company. Companies have many responsibilities when they operate some of which are legal, social, moral and environmental. FR have not always acted in a responsible way to many of these values or responsibilities. That is why you will find many different groups of people who come onto PPRUNE to comment on FR and that can be employees, passengers, ATC or anyone else who wants to express their opinion.

You are making assumptions that I currently or ever have worked for FR or that I am a Captain even? This is an anonymous forum don't forget.

Why does an employee have to go elsewhere? There are probably hundreds of reasons of why certain employees might not want to leave. That is possibly why many employees in FR could be fighting for reasonable industry compared employment practices and T+C's. Some people in FR might have been there a bit more than a year or two and might have seen a rapid decline in their current T+C's over their employment in FR. They have every right to be a little peeved and to try and improve their own employment situation in FR.

I can not see why open and legal employment practices and industry standard T+C's can be seen as a "Mecca". I just don't get that at all. Mecca is a very real place and industry standard employee practices are a very real objective. It wouldn't be such a large and unbelievable step for FR pilots and employees to try and achieve.

Well done! :rolleyes: I'm sure people will respect your tenacious pursuit of an objective or career. The thing is I don't think there will be much left of your professional career when MOL or FR management continue in a pursuit of your T+C's of employment. What was the point in all that effort to be left empty handed?

What is the amount FR advertises for pilot’s gross pay? £90,000 or £100,000 or £130,000. I think it depends on the deal or base and as far as I was made aware there are many different deals in FR. The figure I used of £80,000 give or take a few thousand was quoted to me by a LTC in FR. That is not a large sum of money as a LTC flying 900hrs a year plus all the other training and checking responsibilities.

I'll be sure to let my accountant or financial advisor know of your expert financial opinion. I think he would have to disagree with you though as anyone else would who is receiving a well run and funded pension benefit.

I think most people know it is not as blasé as what you portray. The lists of expenses on pilots in FR will be on a daily, monthly and yearly basis be considerably larger and more costly than you have alluded to.

I will ask why you would not try to understand and educate yourself to the reasons why so many long term employees are not happy with FR's attitude towards it's staff? :confused:

nice rebuke alibaba.....you shot down a lot of "off the cuff" comments made here which were annoying me too

Alibaba I think you are getting a little overcomplex.

We go to work, fly an aeroplane and get paid. If we do not like it for whatever reason we have the option to move (other factors present or not) Have you contacted MOL directly about this? If not and you feel so strongly about it I am at a bit of a loss....My point about whinging on here is that every one joins in and morale decreases to a point less than any possible problem causes in the first place and the whole thing snowballs.

The beatings will continue until morale improves!

alibaba
I agree with you that there are some areas that need to be addressed. However, I am simply trying to put things into perspective. Most people who read anything about RYR on Pprune are led to believe that the staff are slaves, and the airline is dangerous. If you actualy do know anything about the airline, you will know it is all far from the truth!
BALLSOUT.

So, 7,500 pounds Sterling per month (or 11,000 Euros per month, or 15,000 Dollars per month) "is not a large sum of money as a LTC flying 900hrs a year plus all the other training and checking responsibilities"?

You have legitimate grievances in Ryanair, but surely you can see how comments like this could possibly cause a collective snigger from other pilots in other airlines around Europe? Obviously, the same pilots would care deeply about your sacrifices in trying to make Ryanair a better place by staying on while your T+Cs are cut further (cue more sniggers from FR headquarters), but the vast majority of us would vote with our feet on the basis that if the airline haven't got pilots, they can't fly their aircraft and will have to pay more as a result - it's the way it normally works in the business.

Here here - anyway thats all I have to say on the matter. I'm off to work to see if the soup kettle is fixed.

I thought most of my questions or points would not get answered and they were not..... You see there are people who don't want to ask the difficult questions about life or in this case their own current employment situation or that of other colleagues in the same or other companies and fields.
Unfortunately you do have to make the choice at some time.

Moving company is not always the only choice here. People for whatever reason might not want to or have the ability to move company. Whatever the person's reasons what right have you after a smaller amount of time served in a company to turn round to the employee who might have given very many loyal and hard working years service and tell him to buzz off because everything is ok in the last year or two with your own situation?

Don't let the length of my post detract from what I have been trying to point out in my two previous posts. There was nothing complicated in anything I have said. To be honest it was as simple as it gets.

No I haven't contacted MOL. Thanks for the suggestion. :ok: Whatever I feel about the subject does not change some of the facts that surround it.

Well you know how to stop people complaining don't you. Join and support your colleagues in FR by trying to achieve better employment practices. If people didn't have anything to complain about they wouldn't come onto PPRUNE to talk about some of the blatant and very real abuses that go on in FR. You could actually try to make this change and you would benefit from the very many real and positive changes in your employment in FR. That sounds like more of a win, win situation to me.

FR is a large and a professional airline with a good standard of SOPs, I would say most fellow professionals acknowledge this and should understand it. But there are by all accounts very real and damaging practices that take place against employees. These affect their life directly and sometimes to a extreme extent. I understand what you are saying and have to agree with what you are saying at times but people do have real problems and that is something that you and others should also try to understand.

Culture is a very real issue that can effect all departments in a company. With safety being of a pilot’s primary responsibility can people not see how this culture can not slip into daily working practices and safety related tasks.

Net or gross, what are we talking about here? Dollars or Euros is dependent on exchange rates. The point is flying a B737 or A320 size aircraft to some of the many weird and wonderful places FR go 4 times a day is no easy task. Especially as a LTC on a training day. I don't think many pilots in Easy, Virgin or BA would look at £80,000 as a great deal of money doing this with all the expenses of employment in FR such as pensions and other items. This was my point.

It is not the way it works for any serious career pilot on how they would see the business. People understand market forces but they generally wouldn’t let someone on the street walk up to them and take money out of their pocket. So why do people let it happen in their employment?

This is not always an option for employees of any company to leave. Many pilots have been with FR for a long time and have seen their current and past T+C's steadily eroded. Is it an acceptable practice to turn round to that person and say "if you don't like leave"? That person might have his family settled and all the other stuff that comes with life in general and have put in a large amount of service with his company. Moving is just not that easy. Would you expect a BA pilot with 20 years experience to do that or any other pilot with a serious employer?

If you do not try to stop the gradual deterioration of T+C's in that company do you not think that these same practices will not come to your company? This is also the way business's work! It would be naive in the extreme to assume that many of the practices that take place in FR would not follow you to your new company. Running away doesn't solve much it just delays the inevitable reduction in T+C’s that will follow you to your new employment.

nope you're still talking to wrong person....

On the positive side - the soup kettle has been fixed so have had soup for lunch...mmmm

Don't know you are born
 

What a load of moaning minnies you lot are. Get a life. The money you earn for the job you do is certainly not poor - just look at the major jobs being advertised in the press and see what you have to do outside flying to earn between £80,000 -£130,000 gross. Do you realise that 'normal' people working 37.5 hours - and not may earning £80k+ do as little as that; and working 46 weeks of the year put in 1725 hours a year. This is the real world. You can't compare what someone in BA or IB gets as they are working in a completely different employment environment. It's like saying that you want to buy your food at M&S but pay Costco proces.

Good company pension provision within the UK, outside direct government employment, is almost a thing of the past - even for the old legacy carriers.

You are protected on the hours you work, the rest periods you have, the numbers of consecutive days you can work etc. etc. You complain that you have to pay for your food (ah, bless).

If you are unhappy with you lot DO SOMETHING, don't just moan on and on about how it used to be; nothing stays the same forever. Everyone has a choice.

and, you are wrong to say that MOL is doing it all to line his own pockets. The FR shareholders (and are a lot of the 'older' employees not shareholders as well?) are the main beneficiaries of the profits and growth in FR. MOL gets his share but don't be mistaken that it is all for him.

There are lots of very skilled professionals in this industry that would be very, very pleased to receive a massive pay increase to take them to 50% of what a pilot earns. They do it without all the regulations and protections, they have to pay there own way in terms of transport, food etc.

Finally, I've been in this industry for many years (30+) and moaning and whinging was there on the day I started and it is still there today and, yes, aircrew still moan the most.

arr good, this tread has taken a turn for the better. I agree - JUST STOP WHINGING ITS BORING AND NOBODY IS GOING TO RESPOND TO IT. BORING BORING BORING. I apologise to those non whingers about the childish nature of my posts but it is very difficult to get it through!! Like banging head against brick wall. Looking from my own experience a long sector/tour is the ideal time to find fault (in anything not just FR) I find myself doing sometimes and have made a mental note not to do it any more! God if I sound half as bad as you lot somebody bang me over the head with a blunt instrument and remind me how lucky I am.

Yeah quite true there aren't that many jobs that you get paid £80,000-£130000 (lets forget about investment bankers:{ ) But there aren't many jobs where you have to pay £70,000 odd to even have a chance of getting the job!.
Oh yeah I used to work for FR for two years and really enjoyed it for the first year, thought it was great! :ok: Until I got told that they had decided that I was given the wrong contract when I had joined, and would have to pay back all the money (quite a few grands worth) they said I had been overpaid!:ugh: :ugh: :=

Errr no, passengers and the general public are protected from the hr's flight crew work because the consequences of tiredness, exhaustion and fatigue could be frightening and shouldn't need explaining.

Off the top of my head; Doctors, Solicitors, Accountants, NHS and Council managers, Head teachers, Bank managers and very many other professions. This is a profession the same as any other and should be paid accordingly. The point that a previous poster made that there is no other profession as far as I am aware, where you would invest £70,000 to obtain a qualification is also a major point.

You are missing the point though of what the main problems are and pay is quite clearly not the most important problem currently in FR. It is the way it may conduct its employment practices. Just because you are paid a greater amount of money than other professions doesn't mean a company can say and do what they like (possibly in breach of the law and regulations), with the employees that provide their labour and expertise to that company.

Yes you can compare like for like. The example you gave is still in the food retail industry is it not? Even though they are different companies they are still serving the same principal which is to serve customers with food produce. A pilot is still a pilot whether that is in BA or a Low Cost carrier. Low Cost pilots work a considerable amount and a 40-50 hr week is not uncommon. You see what makes it different to a normal office job 9 to 5 at 37.5 hrs a week is that the office worker has probably not been up at 3 am in the morning 5 days in a row and had the responsibility of around 3000 people relying on his sure of hand. It is in the end a pilot flying an aircraft full of people or goods to a destination is it not?

I see you have not answered any point or question put to you. Again is there a reason for this or are you the type of person that likes to let others lead you around and do the thinking for you? I will ask a question again from a previous post. Would you let someone on the street walk up to you and take money out of your pocket? If not why would you let your employer do exactly the same to you or other colleagues?

Rene Descartes said "Cogito Ergo Sum" ("I think, therefore I am.") Your inability to try and think through the many problems in FR shows a distinct lack of intelligence. Quite frightening that you could have obtained an ATPL from any ICAO state really! :eek: :ooh:

I shouldn't lower myself to a slinging match so I will apologise but you show NO informed or thought out responses to anything put to you.

Go somewhere else then as this is an internet site with people that can generally debate over the many issues that effect aviation and our professional working lives. :ok:

Sorry for the length of my posts but some posts that have been made require a detailed response to the utter drivel that has been wrote about fellow professional pilots in their employment situation.