BACON Pilots prepared to strike.
 

:\ Well?? Do we have the commitment and the guts of our mainline colleagues? Evan's letter is an insult to the intelligence, doubtless we shall be told that any industrial action will result in Company Closure. The sheer nerve of the man saying BA cannot afford to pay the deficit, and that BACON has no cash reserves. Mainline bought us and immediately asset stripped us of our LHR slots, that's why we have no cash reserves!!!:*
However, this is about principle. The deficit was known about when they bought us, it is on the record that they promised to preserve our pension entitlements, and now this.
Please please please let us all act as one, please lets involve those not actually members of the Final Salary scheme - this is what BALPA is for, and what it's supposed to be about. If they don't make the right noises now, I shall be very very disappointed.:{
It would be nice to be able to link the mainline problems with our own; for the first time in my life I can now see why secondary picketing was so important. Enough is bl00dy enough, Evans needs to be sorted out, I bet HIS pension isn't being tampered ith. This pension is a contractual obligation, and Evans, Boy Hutch, Witts etc all need to understand there is a line in the sand RIGHT HERE!!!!!:=

Dear Capt C.

You are posting in a vacuum here as non of us have seen the "letter" and thus don't fully understand what you are trying to say.

Could you paste some detail - amazingly your mainline colleagues are keen to help but need some direction......

Captain C

You are absolutely correct. pension provision is something that should unite ALL of us. I am utterly disgusted at the way those at the top of these organisations only lift their snouts out of the trough long enough to tell the workforce that their pensions are now unaffordable.

There is inevitability about the way this will pan out in mainline. Let's hope the same is true in the regions.

come on lads - lets see the proof in the pudding!

All well and good saying lets unite and strike but I for one am not on the final salary pension scheme and I could not afford to strike.

I'd be on the street within a week with all my training debts.

The main problem with this is that not all of the pilots at BACON are affected. The Guys and gals who came into the shambles from Brymon rather than BRAL have a separate, money purchase based, scheme. Although this is not a huge issue in the crewroom on a day to day basis I have heard the odd "well it's alright for those BRAL people with the big pensions" (not that accurate an appraisal but still an underlying feeling with some). Would all of those, including new starters, really be prepared to risk their jobs to fight for rights they will never be able to have. Probably not.

I am not saying what the company are trying to do is right. It is clearly far from that but it is unlikely that BACON Balpa could get enough support for meaningful industrial action over this. For those of us on the Final Salary scheme our best hope is to try and do a deal with mainline Balpa that will tie us into the overall discussion on BA's pension problems.

What is clear that there is no easy solution. BA can't just fill the hole. What message would that send to those fighting for their rights in mainline they have an even stronger legal and moral position than we do. That just isn't going to happen. BA can't simply magic closed the hole in their own fund and they aren't about to do it for ours, so some kind of deal is going to have to be done. We will get a better deal if we can establish that, due to BA's contractual commitment to the pension at purchase, the BRAL scheme should be subject to the same negotiation and solution that is adopted for the main BA pension as a whole. Still won't be great but will be better than negotiating within BACON.

Finally, WW is looking for an excuse to rid himself of BA Connect. He likes the product not the company. It would be easy for the beancounters at Waterside to make him a case to simply close it any time he wants to impress the share holders or scare the unions. If they declare it bankrupt (which they could) the chances are we could lose nearly all of that money. Remember it's on the IOM not in the UK. Tread carefully when talking about industrial action.

Can you enlighten us as to the content of D Evans' letter?

The Great Pensions Theft.
 

1. Pension entitlement cut to a career average rather than a final salary.

2. Employee contributions increased by nearly twenty percent.

3. Change in accrual rate to 1/55ths rather than 1/50ths.

4. Uplift of pension in payment changed to 2.5% with no RPI linkage.

The bottom line is the obscene rush to accomplish this by July. Evans talks of listening to the views of the employee groups before reaching his decision - clearly it is a done deal, and the speed with which the letter is to be followed by "forums" is ridiculous, the letter was dated 13th June, and the first forum was 15th June, then 16th on the IOM. The b@stard 'urges' us to attend the forums, and then says " it would be our intention, once we have completed the communication process with you and your fellow scheme members, to introduce the changes in July 2006 as we are obliged to address the BRAL scheme funding requirement identified in the 2005 valuation". :ugh:
Well, if they were "obliged" why wait so bloody long since 2005, and why is July so important. I suggest that it is because they want to steamroller it through before enough opposition can be mounted. The only reason many senior guys have stayed with this one horse outfit is the pension scheme - watch the exodus if Evans gets his way. I restate the question - what is happening to HIS pension scheme, the fat two faced b@stard!!!!
Come on BALPA for chrissake there must be something we can do. I am disappointed though not too surprised by the attitude of the BACON BARPER equivalents, and I don't necessarily blame them. However, is it industrially necessary to have their support? Even the fifty per cent or so of final salary scheme members could bring this company to its knees in very short order and force it to at the very least come up with a fairer deal - this deficit didn't happen overnight. Furthermore, having asset stripped our Company, they are morally and ethically bound to put a little back in, and a 'little' is what it would be compared to the value of the slots they have taken, and the dubious accounting practices used to turn us from profit to loss. BACC - any chance of some linkage?

Very Simple.... GET OUT.

With those jokers in charge are you surprised ?

Well, if it goes like it did here in the States, if the first few groups don't draw the line and say NO to concessions and loss of pension, then forget about it. The horse will be out of the barn and now management will be talking about needing to "remain competitive" with the newly castrated pilot groups at the first airlines that give up pay and pensions. Who knows what would have happened at Delta and Northwest if USAir and United had gone on strike (and probably out of business)?

The hard part is to be the ones to take the bullet for the rest of the industry. Who wants to be the one to lose their job (if it came to it) to save the rest of us?

Looking for a 'positive' here. I'm told the 'new' pension will be portable i.e. if you leave it goes with you.

If correct, the golden handcuffs holding many senior (and notso) pilots are off. For sure the pension is the main thing retaining this segment of BACON's pilot workforce.

I think expecting non-scheme pilots to strike for (us) BRAL scheme pilots is optomistic. Also Evans et al know it.

WW & the product.
 

So, WW likes the product but not the company, says, remarkably well informed, cheekyvisual. Well what would he replace it with then? BAR?

BAR lost BA £300million pa & BACON only "loses" 20 or so, that looks like a BIG saving to me. Assuming you accept the creative accounting in the 1st place.

As for morals, don't expect any. They were possible when the Ombudsman told BA/Brymon/CX that the Brymon pensioners had a MOral case for a claim re their disgarded FS pension, but the ruling was brushed asside.

If there is any moral case it is to eliminate the divided pension arrangements that give one pilot group an FS scheme & the others a lottery. After a decade or so of service my pension looks like £7kpa, I doubt it will be any better when I get to collect it either.

Also, BA mainline pensions will be what they will be without reference to BACON. Don't kid yourself that if BA m/l keep a great scheme that the "moral" issue will count that way round.

If the BACC are genuinily extending a helping hand it should be grasped. Divide and rule has always worked for management & collective action works for employees. Sadly it is like herding cats so far as pilots are concerned. Individualism rules.

There was an oppurtunity to draw a line in the sand a year or so ago & we collectively wimped out. Now here is the result.

Evans & co think we won't have the guts to stand up to them. They do NOT think that about the BACC & BA pilots for one simple reason. They have demonstrated a willingness to strike. We have dmonstrated the opposite.

Herding Cats!
 

Herding cats eh, I like that, you're probably right too.:( The sheer diversity of individual pilots, backgrounds, length of service, pension entitlements, debt etc etc. not to mention the relatively small number of guys and gals who will actually 'stand up and be counted' probably means we're stuffed. Yet so un-necessary. Remember those times and people who did say NO. Remember Mel? Remember Flossies panic when we voted to maybe approve industrial action? BA management, not to mention our home grown fools are cowards, just like most bullies. It's such a shame, imagine as you queue at the post-office for your income support stamps and winter fuel allowance, you may see Evans, Hutchings, Witts, etc all drive past in the Merc/Jag/Beemer just back from the tropical winter hols they've bought on the strength of the bonuses awarded for keeping us all held down. You think I'm joking?:rolleyes: Look at Ayling - he did very well out his incompetence, and mainly because he was the architect of the first big pension ripoff when NAPs was introduced. Then Edders - he cut and cut and cut - and wow, did you note the details of the payoff? Look at Lloyd's bonuses just this year - a paltry 330K, check it all out, they make a fortune out of saving money. I have no problems with that except when it's MY money they're using to make the cuts. BA mainline are much better at this than us, more united, and have more support from BALPA. I guarantee they will win their own pension battle, because they have collectively decided enough is enough, and despite the occasional whinge from jealous outsiders, they are right. I honestly believe this can be turned around for us too, but only if we act now, just like ml did. In reality, it's probably too late, we are not united enough, and we're too used to doing what we are told by a bunch of greedy, profiteering, incompetent @ssholes. The figures quoted by Ted really tell it all, even allowing for the exaggeration. BA use a devious accounting system but even allowing for that we do very very well compared to the equivalent BAR performance. The really worrying thing is that even though we roll over, (again), and accept the shafting, WW may still decide to dispose of us because in his own short term profit/loss figures, he will be shown to have achieved a miracle in cutting losses. So what to do - well, the main reason for staying has now been removed. You can just see in another couple of years that 'unforeseen factors' dictate a greater contribution from, with correspondingly lower benefits for, that well known bunch of lazy malingerers, the pilots. :*
I'd love to see where we all are in five years, our so called management will doubtless be alongside that idiot TDLF in well paid and secure management positions within mainline. Me, probably abroad, hopefully in the sandpit. We shall see.:D

It is true that the ex-Brymon crews (already shafted by BA over their pension scheme) could very well turn around and say "Not my problem mate"...

... but then when BACON management decide that they can't afford the cost of providing their private healthcare (which us ex-BRAL don't get), the precedent will have already been set.

Management will say it was just one of the many perks which is hitting the bottom line. They will say "We pay for our own healthcare from our own pockets", yet you can be sure it's very little in relative terms when you look at their salaries.

I pray that we agree to draw a line in the sand.. otherwise as previously stated, the 'golden handcuffs' are off and there is absolutely no reason to stay. Then there will be such a shortage of experienced crews that flights will be further affected, and we will subsidise our sister companies (Flightline and Titan) to such an extent that we are no longer viable and we will be shut down. It's a pretty vicious circle, and one which does not need to spiral out of control. The management are guilty of ignoring ALL the staff groups here. Proposals were put forward to help ease the pain of the Final Salary scheme, and share the costs, but they were dismissed out of hand, and dialogue was stopped. It is fairly typical of their 'management' style. They have already made their decision, and are currently trying to deceive the employees into believing that they are being engaged in 'meaningful dialogue'. These roadshows are a mere gesture to convince authorities that they have not taken the decisions unilaterally should anyone decide to pursue the matter legally. You can be sure that the pain of such changes are not being borne equally between management and the employees. Oh they will say "We are in the scheme too, and we are affected" but you can be sure they will be given a management-size financial painkiller to make it easier!
:mad:

Got to say it.............You guys in BACON have got your just desserts! Particularly those of you ex BRAL who have sat fat dumb and happy in "fortress Manchester" content that your mates Hutch and his relos were in control after having spent a goodly apprenticeship honing their skills under Flossyfeatures. You were always going to be looked after weren't you?

You sat their as jet training jobs were dished out to your people who'd never flown a jet before by Anstead and all sorts of other little favours given to ease the passage from the Island and distanced yourself from the total carnage that was left in the wake of the Fosse and McLaren bulldozers.

As for bothering to give any support to your colleagues in the regions as they were disrupted time and time again, well you just couldnt be bothered could you, because you were all right Jack...eh?

So give me one single reason why those of us expecting less than £10K (Those in the Money purchase scheme-typical illustration) in retirement should put whats left of our pathetic company at risk to ensure that you get your £40K or thereabouts?

As for equating the Private health care carried over by a few ex Brymonites to the value of the Final salary scheme that you are all whinging about now..............get a life!! 30 quid a month against 30 thousand a year......ooh, let me see.that is a difficult one.!!

Sorry guys but you have lost the war before even the first battle.......hell half of you couldnt even be bothered to return your pay questionnaire.

As to the future of BACON, I reckon Willie has got a goodun and would be an idiot to let it go. Where else in the industry would he find such a bunch of divided spineless wimps who do absolutely everything they are told by management for the price of a bag of monkey nuts.

Noiffsorbuts, HERE HERE, could not have said it better :D

No ifs'rbutts
 

Sadly,what you say is spot on & illustrates the point of divide & rule vs collective action admirably.

The division has created the bitterness you & others feel & so now unity & action is impossible. 10 out of 10 to the management, who must be wetting their pants with laughter.

It is a case study in how selfishness begets selfishness. Our CC worked their butts off to get a healthy ammount of support for strike action last time to no avail - they cannae do it alone.

Reap what ye sow & all manner of other appropriate cliches..........either way Evans & co can play you lot like a stradivarius. :ugh:

The grass IS greener.
 

It's rather sad to read this thread. You don't find internal dissension like this on the mainline thread. All I can say is that I'm glad I left; people still whinge but somehow stick together better, probably because they have not been divided and conquered like you lot. Can I say that having spent 11 years in BRAL?? well, yes, because I finally smelt the coffee. Am I sad - you bet, and most of all because it seems that Hutchings and his nepotistic arrogant stupid colleagues seem to have won. Just to correct one point - the management DON'T pay for their own healthcare, it's a free perk for them and all their families, just like the car, the share options, the expense account and the extra generous staff travel.
One question - is there ANY humiliation and shafting over that BRAL/BRYMON/BACX/BACN pilots won't accept? Is there ANY line in any sand anywhere???:confused: :confused: :confused:

You blinked first!
 

Have not been on here for some considerable time - since leaving the Company I've been working too hard on new types and SOPs. However, it is so very very sad to see the state the company is now in. You guys unfortunately blinked first some time ago, and I fear nothing you can realistically, practically do will prevent the repeated application of the baseball bat, blunt end first, and you will be charged for the vaseline! If only you had had the balls to follow your BALPA council when they had DLF on the run, you might have negotiated from a position of strength, but now your weaknesses have been exposed and will be exploited mercilessly. The only thing puzzling me is why they didn't close the scheme altogether, because even that wouldn't have been too difficult. My only explanation is that then too many people would have left for pastures greener, and bumped up the training bill - mind you, it's only a matter of time; the next announcement will be unforeseen costs/deficit increases/mortality changes, and more cuts will be imposed. Do keep it all together though, as you are looking after my deferred pension!!!!! BTW, how is this year's pay rise looking?
I'm not trying to gloat, just suggesting you all look carefully in the mirror and see what BA and your own inept and bullying management is doing/has done to you, and more important how little you have done to protect your collective six!

Good luck boys - you'll need it.:suspect:

Noiffsorbutts-this is your first post so you are either management trying to drive a wedge or a very bitter individual who wishes ensure he/she remains anonymous. In the latter case you need to PM me and we can have a chat over a beer ...won't tell anyone who you are (I assume you have the courage of your convictions).
This is this a big issue for the management and they will be prepared to absorb strike action for a few weeks....after this the members will would probably fade. Our action needs to be sustainable.
This company lives on worked days off and disruption...even if one third of the workforce refused these duties for the rest of 2006 it would cost them a fortune.
The shrinking violets who believe the company will close if we upset the applecart need to speak to an accountant/BALPA rep re. the costs associated with such a closure.We may well be sold but it would be financial incompetence of the highest order to incur such MASSIVE closure costs when a company is starting to make a profit. Unfortunately confrontation is sometimes necessary...the line in the sand has been drawn and this is not going to be pretty.
Make no mistake this is our pension money going into the dividends paid to share holders/management bonuses.
If it is a choice between my families future financial security and BACON not posting a profit when management want it to then it is a no brainer.
To answer the question above yes there is one issue that we will not allow ourselves to be shafted on...and this is it.
Mainline poster support is appreciated.

Hutchings?
 

If this is the same Hutchings from what was Manx/BRAL he was a prick back in 1994 -98 when I was there - I cannot see any reason why he should have changed. Sorry thing is that with the attitude Manx/BRAL management has ALWAYS had with regards to their Human Resources I can only say all you guys and gals who stuck it out SHOULD HAVE SEEN THE WRITING ON THE WALL LONG LONG AGO!
I got out when I could see that in almost ALL cases of mismanagement - the Management versus the pilots/cabin crew - everybody in the crew room sympathised with you BUT nobody would have stood shoulder to should with you against them. Hence I left and gues what? it was the best thing I ever did. Never regretted it for even ONE SECOND.
Good luck anyway :ugh:

Well written, well argued from RMC. - my only question is what gives you the idea that anything is happening other than everyone opening their legs and bending over. Certainly at MAN I have not been able to find anyone aware of any realistic structured opposition. Plenty of ranting, not least my own, but no organisation as yet. Come on BALPA, come on mainliners......please.:hmm:

PS, for Mercenary Ali - Hutchings is NOT a prick; a prick is useful! He is not even the female equivalent, because that's useful too, he is an overpromoted, arrogant, pompous, bullying, inadequate and incompetent twit!

RMC,

I too spotted the first posting and came to the conclusion... MANAGEMENT!

A very pitiful attempt at causing more disharmony. It's what they know and do best. I don't think 'he' will be taking you up on the offer of a beer, even if you pay for it.

What they need to realise, is that the BALPA stance is becoming more determined, and the fight for pensions will be aligned with the fight for a meaningful payrise. That way, the pilot workforce will be united, and as stated many times before, simply refusing disruptions and working days off will cause mayhem... they know that they are only managing the schedule day to day, because of goodwill (with a slight financial incentive).

This whole episode is too rushed... something very fishy is going on. :hmm:

Quote RMC

"What they need to realise, is that the BALPA stance is becoming more determined, and the fight for pensions will be aligned with the fight for a meaningful payrise."

Sorry, dont make me laugh! The pathetic scribblings on the subject from Balpa so far will leave management feeling that they have been savaged by a crippled sheep.

As for showing any leadership or erecting a standard around which to make common cause, there is no evidence of this whatosever. The only guys capable of leading such an onslaught gave up long ago........having been castrated by the indifference of the idiots they were trying to represent.

BACON pilots are a disunited, anarchic, selfish and leaderless rabble who know only how to bend over and be shafted. Rant as you will, this issue is dead and you might as well accept it ....because no one has the guts or capability of organising any united action that would achieve anything.

Sorry to disappoint I am not management. I am just a realist.

Go on....Prove me wrong, then I will buy ther beers!

Nobupyourbutt,

post no. 2 and you say (only one single bit chosen) that BACON pilots are selfish....

H E L L O ! ! ! !

Exactly what you aspire to in, and are proud of, in post 1.

You are on the ignore list :rolleyes:

Idiot. :D

EDIT...

Actually, let's prove a point here. Are you a freeloader? If you have an ounce of decency and aren't a bloodsucking ****, what date was on the recent company council letter about the indicative ballot and tell me the initials of the person on the left hand side at the bottom of page 2.
If you genuinely are a member of the union, you can prove it. You can even PM me (have removed you from ignore list). Dare you.

16th June ................and KB!

Now wake up and do something or for ever join the ranks of head banging whingers who are frightened of their own shadow.

By doing something I dont mean ranting on this forum.

Get on the Council, kick your idiot colleagues into action....then lead an orchestrated and properly thought out campaign leading to industrial action.

otherwise you can carry on howling into the wind if it makes you feel better!

I just don't get you at all! You are so full of inconsistincies. In one post you are doing management's job for them. Now you've proven you are one of us and you are pushing for industrial action. In your first post you advocated doing nothing because you weren't part of the FSS... we are on our own.

You decide to tar everyone from BRAL with the same brush because of the nepotistic clan during the merger, and yet we've always said that unless you are part of the Cardiff Mafia, you never get training jobs in this madhouse.

Well and truly confused. :confused:

I will admit though, that I am pleased to see you are now pushing the united union line. Please remember that BALPA have stated that this fight for the pension will be aligned with the fight for a fair pay deal so as to avoid having a split camp and a weak vote.

Some of what you say is correct... I just don't like how you say it. :hmm:

Ah, you dont get me at all.................

Could it be that I am poking you with a sharp stick to get you off your butts??

Too late now anyway.

Now you've got me laughing! :D

Maybe the worm is turning?
About time if you ask me, although I believe our BALPA guys/gals have done a first rate job, unsung heros the lot of them. In many cases they have received direct pressure back from Hutchings and Co, and received career knockbacks purely for doing their elected BALPA task. Disgraceful but no more than BACON management (if that's not a contradiction in terms) are renowned for.
Hold the line everyone, this one is winnable!:D :D :D

Noifs.

Mine is a Bud. Don't think that last post gets you out of the beers! Watch this space.

Reply to Poodle Velour
 

Quote - PS, for Mercenary Ali - Hutchings is NOT a prick; a prick is useful! He is not even the female equivalent, because that's useful too, he is an overpromoted, arrogant, pompous, bullying, inadequate and incompetent twit!

----------------
Yes exactly! but I was trying to diplomatic :-) he hated me because I stood up against him for a young First Officer whom I believed was being treated abysmally by Hutchings and co. At least I invited him outside to tell him what a prick he was and did not do it in the crew room in front of everybody - something I have regretted ever since!

..................So what's happening about the supposed industrial action then?

Results of indicative ballot out this week.

Aparently every BALPA member who is in the pension scheme voted.

A few more days and the result will be out in the open.