Pension damage at United
 

PBS Frontline did a interesting show on pensions and talked to two United Airlines employees, a retired mechanic and a F/A who both had their pensions cut as a result of the United restructuring. What I was surprised about was there wasnt anything about pilot pensions and the damage done. I was under the impression that there would be greater cuts to pilot pensions because they are higher and still insured to the same amount as everyone elses.

Does anyone know first hand what the pilot pension cuts were at United?

PBS 'Frontline' takes a sobering look at pensions

I have been told that they have been cut by 80%.:ugh:

My uncle is retired UAL and his went down by 75%.

DAL pilot pensions were also reduced by 80% I believe...makes a bit of a dent in the country club way of life, me thinks...:uhoh:

You won't find all that many guys living the "country club way of life" even before all this happened. When you look at 10,000 guys, you'll see a range of how people manage their money based on the information they had to work with. Some good; some not so good. I'm sure you did better than everyone else....congratulations.

Our pensions will soon be reduced to ZERO. Throw a party.

All in all, your comments are rather calloused. But, as long as you feel better about yourself by seeing the misfortune of others, go for it.

I thought you had a "close friend" from DL at Cargo 360. I'm sure he'd feel really "friendly" knowing how overjoyed you are at his loss of 100% of the pension he worked three decades for.

Sleep well....

we lost our pension at usairways too, the same routine. sadly the PBGC guarantees only a portion of the pension ( surprise!!!!) and yes it works out to about 25 cents on the dollar.

we would get a bit more but the PBGC says the most happens if you retire at age 65... but we have to retire (at least for now) at age 60.


of course the pensions of the CEO's didn't get cut at all.

The American way!

j

There are those that enjoy the good fortunes of others and then there are those that relish the misfortunes of others. When one gloats over the misfortunes of others what a miserable life that person must lead.

Pension
 

jondc9,

Didn't know if you heard...Rekesh, Ashby, and the original founder of America West have started Indigo. I read where Rekesh put up over $100M of his own cash. I wonder where he got that kind of money?

I'm getting about 22 cents on the dollar. I am in the 'outlier group'...started at age 26. So, I was fortunate to have gotten the job at a young age. Unfortuately, PBGC thinks I'm young enough to go out and start over. (I'm 53 now.)

Which I did. Southeast Asia is great!!!!! Money is good, work is easy, life is easy, people are nice.

More of our brothers have bailed or are bailing.

Fly safe,


Tom

hi tom

I of course hope that rakesh loses his shirt, but that's just me!

I've been on LTD (disability) for about 5 years due to a neurological injury to my spine, nothing too bad, just bad enough not to fly anymore.makes my right arm/hand painful etc.

I wish you well!

regards

jon

The pension tragedy should never have been allowed to occur in this 'land of the free'

I note that the PBGC netted a profit of over $330 million before they closed shop. It would have been highly appropriate to send that money towards those airline employees that lost so much.

As to '411a'. I have watched his posts over the years and wondered at the kind of person who thrives on highlighting other peoples misery. Unfortunately I have seen a few of his type on assorted flight decks.

He seems to have a little technical knowledge in a rather narrow field. If, indeed he ever served as a crewmember he must have been a nightmare to fly with, to the point of safety being adversely affected.

His astonishing lack of people skills must be a constant challenge throughout his everyday life in fact.

His are the 'hit and run attacks' easily enabled by on line
anonymity. Others have probably noticed he never responds to the irritation he causes.

Indeed, that is what gives him the greatest pleasure, and what makes him such a sad little man.

Cowardly is not an adequate description, for this pontificating, waste of space
and he does not represent or deserve to mix with the professionals on this forum.

But, once again, I am playing his game, responding to his verbal diarrohea.

It has been suggested in the past that he should be banned from this forum, but that idea has not been implemented. I have a healthy respect for free speech myself.

To repeat, 411a, you do not represent this profession, (even from another era) I knew and still know plenty of Gentlemen from your 'heyday' and any like you were shunned by those who knew better. You like to think of yourself as the knowledgeable, and clever voice of experience.

This you are not.

Perhaps some more adversity in your life would have served you well, provided some humility even. If anything about your past is true, you moved up quite quickly in civil aviation. Then again I know many people who were as lucky and still manage to have a sense of decency and gratitude for their good fortune.

So carry on 411a with your little game, however, you are not one of us.

The whole pension debacle makes me feel incredibly sad for the employees who put money into these plans for years and years only to be tricked out of their money in the end.

I fully understand the need for the companies to survive but if the PBS show is taken at face value than several financiers jumped to the front of the line and secured huge profits by gutting employee benefits and pensions. Sad.

Surely there has to be a better way.

Oh dear, Stilton, I do seem to have upset you so.

The facts are however, that a few rather bright(er) pilots at the major US carriers managed to have a little more foresight than the majority,.

Instead of asking for more, more, more, and buying two new trucks every year along with the odd boat every so often (not to mention changing wives at the same time) they took a rather long look at their respective carrier (and the outlook for US carriers in general)...and decided they didn't like what the saw, and bailed early, when they were offered a sweet cash/incentive deal to do so, taking as much cash as possible.
These folks are doing generally OK now in these more lean times.

The folks you generally refer to are the more, more more crowd who spent every last dime on 'today', believing that the 'company' would provide, seemingly forever.
Hmmm, didn't turn out that way, now did it?

If you want to blame others for calling it for what it was, IE, the inability to use just a little more common sense about the whole pension scenario, then you might right and truly find yourself up the creek, without a nearby paddle.

The PanAmerican 'white hat' era has loooong passed.
Sorry.:rolleyes:

Well said stilton

Gentlemen,

As a ' limey ' living and working in the Middle East, I wouldn't normally venture into USA territory but having seen the dreaded '411a' appear as a 'last posted by' on this forum, curiosity got the better of me.

For those of you unfamiliar with this character, i'll let you into a little secret. His posts serve no purpose other than to wind people up. He's often on the Middle East forum pontificating his outdated views and the lack of our desicion making skills in choosing to work for Emirates. He saves the most vitriolic posts for those of us that have been so 'naive' and downright stupid to have given up a Command for a F/O position. Never, ever, give up a command, under ANY circumstances, are his wise words of wisdom.I haven't checked, but it would not surprise me in the least if the British Airways pension saga was not free from his repetitive diatribe as well. In the 20 years i've been flying, i'm pleased to say only rarely have I had the unfortunate experience of flying with pompous and rude individuals like him.The only positive aspect of flying with him and his ilk was the insight it gave me into how not to treat people.

Regarding his Command theory, in my case that's been dissproved i'm pleased to say. I, like many other professional Pilots worldwide, have taken tough decisions to move ourselves and our families to foreign shores, hoping to provide a better life in what is becoming a tougher and tougher environment. Not just here in the Middle East, but all around the World, as greed and Airlines run by accountants erode at our T&C's in a way that his generation would never have imagined. After 3 years, my command is back. My net wealth has doubled in those 3 years, not through Emirates salary but through the opportunities that were available to us here in Dubai. Both my children go to an excellent private school and along with First/ business class travel, we live in a large Company provided Villa in one of the best parts of the city. Because of the latter, several overseas properties are renting nicely.
I could go on.

I'm sure he'll be quick to reply with some wonderfully presented arguments but I will not be entering a slanging match. And nor should others on this forum.Thousands of people have had their future and livelihood literally pulled from underneath them. Fellow aviators who's only 'crime' was to expect a decent wage for a job that's becoming more demeaning and undervalued each day. How can you gloat about guys losing 80% of their future pension. BA are facing similar problems and the only greed I can see is from the higher managers.

411a

If you really are a professional, retired or current, then you're a complete disgrace to this profession and in future i'll treat your posts with the contempt they deserve. that is until you start to show some compassion and humility.

I'll not hold my breath.

BYMONEK

Bymonek,

You are a gentleman amongst friends, I too preserved my tongue in this forum until recently, your comments are a credit to true professionals who do their level best for this industry, their families and what suits the quality of life that is important to us all.

My very best wishes to you for your forthright honesty and your integrity.

:D :ok:

Compassion and humility are certainly not on the agenda, Jox, as it concerns pilots who get themselves into a fix, even though advised beforehand that perhaps they had better look a little more deeply before leaping off the short end of the pier.

There are HUNDREDS of pilots in the USA that previously worked for major carriers, noticed that future prospects were not as they anticipated, and actually DID something about it.

They left (early out), collected a lump sum, and moved on to other carriers with better prospects, many as DEC's.
Many went to the middle east or south/south east asia, and as a result retired quite nicely.
Others were not so fortunate.
They hung on, 'hoping' for the best.
Now that the situation has turned ugly, they are crying the blues.

NO one in aircarrier flying is going to hold your hand.
You have to be mostly self-relient.

To do otherwise is a self defeating proposition.
Period.

Those are the facts, like it or not.
And, I suspect many don't.
Just the way it is.:ooh:

Now, on the other hand, I do have compassion for folks that were at (for example) the original Braniff.
There, the company closed up suddenly, no salaries, no job...and no pension.
A totally different story than UAL/NWA/DAL.

Airline pilots everywhere had better have a serious look at their specific company prospects, and if they don't like what they see, act accordingly.
This is done in many other professions, airline pilots are no different.

I heard it reported today, Delta's pilot pension scheme will be 'TOTALLY' cancelled, sometime in September? Who does this affect? Guys retired for 10-20 years, guys just about to retire, guys facing retirement in 3-5 years? Can't believe there will be a TOTAL loss...? What about the executives...will execs retired 10 years previously lose their retirements also? Will 'Golden Handshakes (fleeceings)' for CEO's also be refunded? Just like to know, Sam.

Stilton,

Your asssesment of 411A is spot on. A psychatrist could have a field day with him.

Notice he has been in Arizona for quite a time. Perhaps Air Universal does not want him back.

Guys

Only a thought.

Did you know, if you go to your "user CP" (found at the top of the page you are reading right now) On the left you will find a column entitled "Control Panel" At the bottom of that is a block entitled "buddy/ignore list".

I use it on another forum, and find it improves the quality of debate no end, when complete pillocks are excluded.

Catch my drift???

The only problem with your idea, Tandemrotor, is that by those doing so I suspect are the same folks that have ignored really basic financial realities in their airline careers, thereby finding themselves on the short end of the funding stick.
Take a look at DAL as a perfect example.
For years the pilot 'thinking' was...'the company is so financially strong, has plenty of cash on hand, has always treated their employees well, so the pension plans available will surely take care of our needs during retirement.'
And, along comes deregulation, and a few new carriers appear on the horizon (Airtran, for example, right in DAL's own backyard) and the cushy financial future begins to erode, ever so slowly...certainy not fast enough for those dense pilots at DAL to realise it. ALPO was not much help either, negotiating the huge pay increases just shortly before it all started to fall apart, and now finds itself in the position of negotiating from a point of extreme weakness, exchanging concessions now from the working crews, in exchange for cutting off the already retired (or about to retire) pilots right at the knees, leaving only the federal government to pick up the pieces, and delivering 20 cents on the dollar, all courtesy of the bankruptcy court.
Pilots in the USA who look to their companies for financial freedom in their later years are in for a rude awakening, as many have found out already, much to their disappointment.
Those in western Europe have a much better deal, as pensions there are protected under law...usually.

Yep, the country club atmosphere was good while it lasted, only to be fondly remembered by those that failed to take the long view, and spend every last dollar when they were making the big bucks.
To those I can only say...'not too smart, was it, Bubba?'

OK guys/gals, how many US airlines had a plan to pay a pilot an oft-quoted "lump-sum" after 10, 15 or even 20 years? Some major airlines never had it, or most of us somehow never heard about them.

You betcha, even if your company had no lump sum, then this is still supposedly the theoretical cure for saving one's career and survive the industry's worsening condition. Quite simple. Ganz einfach.

Let's look at the main problem here, seen from the perspective of pilots who either were very fortunate (with many years at one airline) or spent most of their careers in various foreign lands, also with no crystal ball. The pilot unions have only themselves to blame, even when TWA's unionized pilots agreed to about a 40% pay cut? And Northwest's 40%, which was a temporary major pay cut, accepted by the pilot group months before their Tentative Agreement passed? Other pilot unions (at early Republic, Flying Tigers etc), even many years ago, agreed to pay cuts worth lots of liquidity to the banks etc. But an airline's demise is still their fault. Even after replacing the union pilots at Continental with much lower paid scabs, who had no minimum standards for pay or benefits, Lorenzo and his wannabes should have created the most successful US airline. The pilots were no longer The Problem.
Maybe the Wall Street Airline whiz kid had no intention of anything, except self-enrichment, plus large crumbs tossed to his legal team. With much lower staff costs at Continental, based on the assumption that previous highers costs were the main problem, it should have become the leading carrier in the later 80s. Negotiating is one thing-but declaring Chapter 11 in '83 in order for the new airline savior to avoid the process, with solid support from the White House, is another thing altogether...after Frankie's stunt, the bankruptcy laws were modified.

Pilots can work for free, but without dedicated, professional management, a Board of Directors which has the integrity to live up to its corporate responsibilities (instead of personal perks), and a truly people-oriented person with his team at the top who leads by example (self-initiated 40% CEO pay cuts, and company stock, would be a start), there is little hope.

In order to be the primary culprits, in such a position of leadership, the Union MECs must also be responsible for hiring and firing CEOs?
Wait just a minute... those Boards of Directors can not be held responsible for the short-, mid- or long-term survival of the airline, can they? Quite true-that would keep labor out of the limelight. Only those "country club pilots" at Delta or wherever who, in many cases, agreed to a 25-39% pay cut, can be held responsible for negligence...if our ever-present Pprune Expert has the only true, crystal-clear Big Picture.

Now let's just pretend that a pilot is divorced and is not cold-hearted, no matter whose fault it was (a lack of healthy income prospects break up many marriages), and he/she wants to live one day's drive from a son or daughter (maybe 2 kids), hoping that a judge will allow frequent visits.

According to some on Pprune, the only intelligent solution for a career, without the benefit of hindsight is to simply fly overseas, apply for the job, study and work on the other side of the Blue Planet, and hoping for the chance to see a young child once or twice during the year-probably no birthdays, Christmas visits, school graduations. As one tries to communicate with a seriously unstable spouse (one ex-wife is called "Crazy M---" by the rest of her family in a southern state). I know this pilot-he lives in Indiana. That's only a ten-hour drive from two of his kids. Children grow up faster than we expect them to.

How about from Southeast Asia or the Middle East? Maybe they have frequent, flexible vacations and lots of days off. Ok, no sweat flying home to the US quite often. If not, simply forget the kids and elderly parents, be far away when they, possibly a brother or sister, become very ill or die. Or don't have any.
Life is so simple for the cold-hearted and superior intellects (to paraphrase H.G. Wells 'minds cool and vast'). Many of us are just too 'dense' to "wake up and smell the coffee", without the benefit of 20-20 hindsight.

Careful now, that is a huge generalisation BYMONEK...! We are a very careful, prudent profession, but not a penny-pinching lot - those are your day-to-day "managers".

411A; you confuse the result (pilots losing pensions) with the cause (financial mismanagement in general). Pilot salaries are not the whole of the costs of the airline - not that they are in consequential - but the huge oil prices rises seen that have clobbered even the most financially sound airlines are but one of the other costs that have caused airlines to look to any and every cost to keep themselves afloat.

Salaries may well have been set highly in the old days, even post dergeulation prior to the emergence of many Southwests in many an airline's backyard, but hindsight is a wonderful thing, and rubbing people's faces in it is neither polite nor gentlemenly behaviour.

The fact is that lower salaries at that time may have helped to some extent, but other costs have risen as well (IT, fuel, GDSs, support, infrastructure), while governmental support has fallen - the effect of that might not be so great on a company's reserves as one might think.

Now the salaries had to fall in today's competitive environment - one cannot argue with that - however the speed and pace of change are not things that have either been forecast by the cleverest brains or your average pilots who left for overseas work.

Remember that not a long time ago pensions were fully funded. Nobody has stolen this cash - things have just not turned out as expected. While executive greed in the US has been shocking as usual in respect of their own compensation, interest rates, stock markets and longevity of pensioners did more than their fair share of help in diminishing the value of the pensions as well.

While nobody does or should expect the US taxpayer to foot the bill (while many other jobs have no such luxury of even a pension) for the pensions shortfall through the PBGC (profit is erroneous as a term - it has assets for the pensions onloaded to it at the moment that have gained on the stockmarket over the year), some sympathy might be nice.

Pilot Pension Woes
 

I'm certainly not one to take any delight in another’s misfortunes but the current pilot pension issue was totally predictable and has being for many years. Basic and simple fact of life: If you work for an employer who chronically looses money in an industry that does the same don't expect them to be able to pony up on obligations down the road. It is just foolish to think that companies that are not making money will suddenly find a pot of gold down the road to pay out past obligations. The US airline industry has never made any real money since it has being deregulated, so where were they going to get money to pay pensions?
The unions easily could have given up wage increases over the years and insisted instead that real cash be diverted into separate funded pension funds. They preferred to bury their heads in the sand and pretend the balls can be kept in the air. I know pilots who decided years back that the payouts they had being promised were unlikely and planned accordingly.
This is not to excuse the idiot managers and the spineless boards of directors that hired certain CEO’s to send them on their way 18 months later with XX millions. However the current situation has being in the making for decades and for a group like the pilots to be surprised about this does not say much for them as a group.

If we put aside 411A's snide commments about "...country club...two trucks...multiple wives..." and recognize them as the tired old sterotypes used by people who just want to take a shot at people they perceive did better than they did, his remarks quoted above are pretty accurate for some pilots.

The fact that people end up mismanaging their finances is hardly reason to "ALERT THE MEDIA". People will largely exhibit human traits and failings.

Their error ( and in the airline business, it's a big one ) was trusting the people they worked for. They demonstrated a bit of naivete by believing what their leaders told them, along with sterotypes and virtual urban legends ( SWA is the current one ). What leads people into this mindset is far too complex to address here but not everyone fits 411A's vision of pilots at Delta or any other major carrier I would bet, he just hopes it does for personal reasons.

I know that at Delta the flt ops management really pumped the new hires full of sunshine in an understandable effort to motivate them which probably left a long-lasting imprint. When I was a 727 captain, I'd get the new FE's who were absolutely beaming about being where they were,and they should have been at the time. They'd fall into the hands of an evil real estate agent in Peachtree City and get qualified for a mortgage based on their SECOND year pay...bad mistake. But as 411A said, there were decades of history to support the claims made by the company that "The sun will never set on the British Empire." It would take an experienced, skeptical, suspicious-minded airline type to dispute these notions; these folks did not fit that description. They were comparatively young, but very bright, guys from the military where they could trust their leaders and no profit motive was involved. This was largely their first foray into the "real world". When I told them they should live in an apartment in Hapeville for their first three years and buy nothing larger than a loaf of bread, they just looked at me like I had two heads.

None of this is to disparage these people ( they are wonderful ) but none of them was a fortuneteller, nor can they be slammed or demeaned now because they weren't.

Life is messy...and let the first of you who hasn't made a mess step forward as a benchmark for us all.

Re-Heat, 20 Driver and many others can state the truth about this business without, eh, conveniently forgetting where much of the problem lies, the corporate leadership, or lack thereof. What is the background required for a typical airline CEO? Here is a hint-not in aviation (at least CO's former CEO Gordon Bethune has a B-757 type-rating and has delivered the plane from the factory). How long typically is an airline CEO's career? Maybe four years? Sure, it is a very strenuous, tough business. But if things don't work out for the CEO, he often receives $70,000 US per month, for life-in addition to company stock.

And the guaranteed pension for staff who were not just responsible for the aircraft, but had extremely valuable cargo or lives in their own hands for 25-30 years?
At least most on this thread choose to avoid cheapshots by way of smug, calloused, self-righteous comments, so beloved by one or two others.