Pay away, dont expect to be Spoon Fed !
 

I hope my input to this thread will change the minds of those who expect airlines to pay for type ratings in todays world. As regards a shortage of pilots i think Mr bermudatriangle is right to a certain degree. The shortage comprises mainly of type rated and some experienced pilots only. Why is this so ? Because there are a lot of stubborn pilots out there who are reluctant to pay for a type rating and Airlines are not paying like they used to for type ratings because they lead to higher costs.

Let me give you an example:
Ryanair is a low cost airline. Ryanair will not pay for a type rating on its B737-800 aircraft and i do not see the company every paying for type ratings for its new pilots. The same goes for other low cost operators and traditional airlines. The industry is so Competitive airlines cannot afford to pay for type ratings anymore. Some will pay for a type rating and even sponsorship but you will find yourself on poor wages for at least 5-7 years. Always read the Terms and Conditions in the Contract.

So for those of you who are reluctant to pay for a type rating i will say this: Get out and get your type rating and then you will get a job as a FO with a decent salary to start with. For those of you who just cannot afford to pay for a type rating think of ways to raise the funds to pay! Use your initiative to follow your Dream, dont sit around waiting for something to come up.



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Ryanride, this is only true in the short term. In the medium term this will significantly reduce salaries for everybody. Most of the pilots entering airlines at the moment expect things to get better. That is a matter of opinion, but any argument based on carries the obvious danger that after the words "cannot affor to pay for ...." could be added:

- a type rating
- salary during training
- full salary until the end of probation
- sector pay until....
- line training ...
- the first year of line flying
- the first two years of line flying (as in "we will give you free line training and let you accrue some hours in exchange for working here for two years")
- and so on and so forth.

Once one airline starts doing "it" for competitive reasons the others will start to follow. Your argument is based on the assumption that this problem only relates to the start of a career. The difficulty is that these problems are spreading like wildfire. At this moment, in East Midlands, sit a number of pilots awaiting training with Ryanair. Many of them have been waiting for many months. That not the bad bit; here is the bad bit - they have already paid for their type rating. But since they are not "productive" they don't get paid. This has been going on for over a year now. "Get the type rating money" = entrap the pilot. You can then use him/her when you want since unpaid pilots cost you nothing. Their debt keeps them docile and "out of sight".

With the greatest of respect, you need to do a little more thinking about the modern realities of aviation and where they might take you. You may yet see the day when it is a lot worse than paying for a first type rating.

Thanks for that GGV. Very grateful you took the time to say what you said. I will say one thing it is becoming harder everday to get a job as an airline pilot and the reasons for this are with the Airlines and out of pilots control.

:yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

Listen too all those poor souls crying about paying for type ratings as the only way forward in the industry. I can hear the violins playing in the background.

NOT.

You guys who pay for your type ratings make me sick. Grow a spine! You are wrecking it for all of us, including yourselves.

:yuk:

I'd like to add, this FR situation is of course the worst.
I myself paid, and got a decent salary right away.
The idea was at that time to pay for a rating and get that amount back over a period of 2 years in the form of salary. So, yes in fact I worked 2years for free.
But at that time (1998) the only alternatives in the Netherlands were:
* Basically no direct entries anywere, unless you came from the KLM Flight Academy.
* paying (around €38000) for a EMB120 rating to fly (perhaps 20hrs p.m) for peanuts with Base airlines (now bankrupt),
* paying (around €45000) for a twin piston rating with Tulip Airlines (now bankrupt).
* paying (around €40000) for a EMB120/ATR42 rating with Air Exel (now bankrupt) and be paid peanuts as well.
* paying (around €45000 including the expenses you'll have during the stay) to fly 500 hrs in the states on that Beech 1900 with that outfit in Florida.
OR pay (€35000) to get a F50 rating and be paid €50000 over a 2 year period, with the possibility to stay in the airline. That's what I did, and I'm still flying there.

Now that I see the other "deals" around, the prices don't seem "that bad" if you compare it with 8 years ago.
If I then would not have paid, I would still be without a job. So for me it paid off. But of course only, if you get a decent salary as well right from the start.

Good luck all, and I hope the majors will open the gates soon for more lowtimers.

I think I've found a pattern in your post, Superpilut. It seems that almost every airline that was offloading training costs on employees went under. Lucky you for picking the right one.;)

Some of the posts in the thread are quite sad. In order for an action to have an effect there must be solidarity, which there is apparently a lack of.

Here is to everyone whos for the bettering of this once golden, and respected industry. :ok: http://content.answers.com/main/cont...250px-Beer.jpg

B767PL,

The thing is they dont understand that what they are doing is wrong. They wont stand on our side because they are so blind to the reality.

If only if only if only!!!!

They probably also think that flying anything small and dangerous is not proper flying.

Why are they not prepared to work for their career and do their time?

Poor sad lost souls, its not their fault!!

Ooh, where is the ...... :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: ...... toilet? Woops, too late couldnt hold it back!

Ryanride, you appear to be quoting directly from the FR script, both in this post and in your others. Lots of airlines still pay for ratings.

I'm a little unclear as to implication, do enlighten me. Are you suggesting that it is a bad thing these so-called stubborn pilots don't pay for a rating?

Not paying attention are you? New DE skippers aren't paying, although admittedly they are only being offered lower pay for the first couple of years.

Ah that's ok then, FR are offering decent money to new FO's. Though I'm not sure they feel quite so enamoured by FR's "generosity."

I note your location is given as Casement. Thus your lack of actual Ryanair knowledge renders your contribution worthless. You may think different when it comes to your own time to hang up the brown boots. In the mean time, grow some backbone and have a little respect for your chosen profession.

CamelhAir anyone who says is either a fellow traveller or lacks sufficient wit to understand the business. Nice try at the logical approach, but we are not dealing with the full deck here - as you can see when you read that it is the pilots who are causing the pilot shortage Pray that he or she stays in the highly protected environs of EIME and never ventures out. Before they damage themselves they will undoubtedly damage several others en route. If this is a current pilot, then God help us all ....

There seems to be alot of confusion with this thread. Maybe somebody could explain the situation properly to some of our younger enthusiasts.

Simple Explanation
 

If wannabees dont understand why they are hated so much for buying typeratings and screwing the system, I suggest they read the latest BALPA edition of 'THE LOG'. Especially the article called 'The £2 Ticket' and the section on company pensions. They then need to ask themselves, why are they having to buy jobs in the first place.

The reason why pilots are allowed to get self funded type ratings:

1. Companies have to cut costs in this low cost aviation world.

2. Self type rated pilots are too lazy and/or desperate to do the hard work and work up the chain like everyone else. Normally because they have listened to the crap given by training companies, or have not spent their money wisely.

3. Companies take advantage of this. They do it because every new self funded type rated pilot is saying to them "How far would you like me to bend over sir? I have taken yoga so I can go much further!"


What can we (pilots) do about it:

1. Stick together and have a COMMON argument. (Keep our T's & C's where they should be)

2. Dont sell each other out by buying a type rating out right! (Ie. Jumping the long que and giving the company a reason to pay you nothing!)

3. STICK TOGETHER AND HAVE A COMMON ARGUMENT! (See 1. Above)


What can wannabees do about it:

1. Have some self respect and be prepared to work hard and spend their money responsibly.

2. Work their way up the ladder, dont undercut those who are higher up the chain (unfortunately this means putting up with a year or two of rubbish pay)

3. Get to the top the RIGHT way and reap the rewards of excellent T & C's due to the fact that no one is 's:mad: tting on their own doorstep' and therefore not giving companies the ability to treat their pilots and c/c with total disrespect!!

Ryanride, you said this......

Quote:

---

Thanks for that GGV. Very grateful you took the time to say what you said. I will say one thing it is becoming harder everday to get a job as an airline pilot and the reasons for this are with the Airlines and out of pilots control.5th March 2006 12:12

---

What the ....??? This is the most incorrect, ignorrant and stupid thing I have heard for a long time. New wannabee pilots are destroying our industry because they are saying to Airlines, "We will do anything to fly for you! We are prepared to fly for less and undercut our colleagues". All they have to do is have the balls, and the patience to say "I want to do this properly!, I am sorry, you will pay me what I am worth, when I have the experience to be worth it"

Its been said before and I will say it again... YOU CANT BUY EXPERIENCE! If you try, then you cant complain when the company shafts you for the privelege!!


Mods, not sure if I can post the paragraph about 'The Log'. If not can you edit it and please leave the rest of the post. Cheers.

On speed on profile yours is a post with which I greatly sympathise. However, you quote me as saying something which you feel Actually I totally agree that the remarks you cite really are among But I am innocent of the charge because it was an interesting new ppruner called ryanaride that uttered the words you cite (in response to a post of mine).

I may not have much of a reputation to worry about, but .... there is a limit !!

Much appreciated On speed on profile!

Thanks

I know pilots who has 3-4000 hours flying SEP as instructors and even they have to fund their own type-rating. So all the talk about working your way up the ladder is just talk from poeple who know nothing about the situation of new pilots today.

If I were to go to an airline and tell them that they would have to pay for my TR I would have been kicked out of the room. This is the truth about the market today. So what am I to do? Work as an instructor earning 900 euros per month if the weather is good that is, for 5-6 years, getting my self perhaps 2000 hours in that time and still no one is interested in paying for my TR. By that time I would be 30 years old and still out of a real job. That would make me shamed of myself.

I even know pilots who have about 1000 hours flying businessjets as well as at least another 1000 hours flying SEP even they have to fund their own TR.

So all this talk about "how far I would be bending over for a job" is very unprofessional talk from people who's educational level in language is compared to someone from first grade. Only small children talk the way you do. So act like the professionals you are!

Sure I would love to get my Type-rating for free and start flying a B200 for example or anything else with a multi-crew. But the facts are these:

1. There are a lot of new pilots
2. There are those how have money and those who do not
3. The airlines will NOT pay for a type-rating unless you have about 2000 hours in a multi-eninge jet.
4. The airlines are flooded with applications from pilots who are up to their ears in debt and need money fast in order to survive.
5. A complete pilot's education from PPL - ATPL/CPL costs at least 60'000 euro and that does not include the cost of living during the time you study.
6. Pilot schools are giving fresh pilots false hopes about the market in order to get them to spend those 60'000 E at training for a job they might not get.
7. There aren't a lot of companies out there who are flying ME TP aircraft or even MEP aircraft.
8. Those who are flying ME TP's have the same requirements as airlines flying ME Jet...

Sure I agree with all who are saying that people who fund their own TR are underminig the industry but what options do they have?

I havn't seen a single example of how one is to "work my way up the ladder" in this thread. Most is just BS from people who are angry and they have a right to be.

But for gods sake put yourself in our position. What are we to do? Clean toilets for the next 5 years until the market has such a lack of pilots that we might get a call from an airline? Face the truth, it's not going to happen.

Until I see a clear post here telling me where I could find a job that is within the frame of "working my way up the ladder" I'm not going to bother answering any stupid comments about this post...

Best Regards
/T

Bravo Founder ! Well said.

GGV, Sorry about that mate. My fingers were 'fasting tpyer than my brain'.
Humble apologies go out to you! I have edited the offending sentence!

Founder,

Where do I start.... For a start, have some self respect and the presence of mind to say, I am going to work hard to do a job I love!

Then, I think all I have to say is this......

Any instructor with 3000-4000 hours needs to ask themselves the question... Why are they a SEP instructor with 3000-4000 hours? Are they in it for the career or are they not actually good enough to move up the ladder?

The reason why a SEP instructor is having to consider buying a TR....

Cos the little baby wanabee who is too lazy to do some real flying first is "bending over already" or they just arent good enough to cut it! FACT!

Here is something for you... all my old SEP instructor friends have jobs because they were good and they are all bonded but NONE OF THEM HAD TO PAY FOR A TYPE RATING!!

Ability goes a long way my friend!!!

My old CP said he wouldnt touch SEP instructors (and some MEP instructors). Reason: (And I quote) "They havent flown an aircraft for 3000-4000 hours, just watched someone else" and in his experience, "they normally always fail a flight ability assessment."

As for your biz jet buddy, the reason he is having to fork out for a type rating is because the little baby wanabee who is too lazy to do some real flying first or the SEP instructor who is not good enough, is "bending over already".

Founder, you can criticise all my "unprofessional talk" but how about you stop and consider the unprofessionalism that is being exhibited by all the wannabees and experienced pilots (SEP instuctors with 3000-4000 hours) who dont have the necessary skill level to get to the top without buying their own type rating. They are jumping the que of people who deserve the job and have the ability and the most experience. This gives companies a chance to lower the entry level pay (and eventually the whole comapny T&C's) to "however far one can bend"

There is no need or excuse for buying a type rating. A company bond for an adequately qualified and experienced pilot is the only acceptable way of recruiting a pilot. You can not expect a company to have to foot the bill of a pilots training only for him to leave 3 months later. Neither should a company expect a pilot to sell himself short.

You have asked what should a wanabee do.....

Here it is. Work hard, do you homework and dont be lazy. Get some real HANDS on flying, and then move up the ladder when it is your turn.

Tow gliders, teach aerobatics, become an instructor (but maintain your stick and rudder skills) or fly jump planes. GET AND KEEP YOUR HANDS ON THE CONTROLS. If you are smart enough and motivated enough, you will be to work it out.

Founder, you know nothing of the situation today, neither do your colleauges who buy TYPE RATINGS. The situation is this....

IF THEY BUY A TYPE RATING, IT IS AN INDERECT WAY OF SAYING TO THE COMPANY, I WILL DO ANYTHING FOR A JOB AND THEREFORE EXPECT TO GET PAID NOTHING.
GETTING PAID NOTHING MEANS THIS: NO LIFE, NO HOUSE, PROBABLY NO WIFE, NO LIFE, NO PENSION and lastly NO FUN OR QUALITY OF LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Founder, stop whingeing and open your eyes to the reality!!

Founder, I forgot to add.

I AM I YOUR POSITION!!!!!!!!!!!!

I got my license through the modular route, flew tail draggers, worked hard, was welcomed with open arms into my previous company to fly a light twin air taxi and now I have moved on to teach ground school classes and fly another air taxi. It has taken sacrifice, a little bit of flying for beer, sausages and a tent but I have loved every minute of it and I have no doubt I will get a jet job, the reason....

I have turned down one already (a lifestyle choice) and passed a 737NG sim ride with another!!!!!!!!

Neither company wants me to buy my type rating and I am not desperate because I have worked hard knowing full well the best way to the top!!

Your whinging about my unprofessional comments and a lack of jobs for new pilots holds no bearing with me when I am trying to protect the T & C's that I am due in a few years!!!!

I did it, many others here have done it, why cant you and your buddies do it?

Again, the ..... :yuk: ...... toilet. DAMB!!!

Like I said, start acting like the professional you are and discuss this matter like an adult would...

Well, ask the guy's who did pay for their own type-rating. They earn about 3-6000 euro per month so you just showed that world that is you who know nothing about the situation since you claim that they are working for free...

And I dont think my friend is lazy and you are a fool to call him that. He is now a F/O at RyanAir and he is also a damn good pilot.

I ask you again how am I as a new pilot to be able to get 500 hours of multi-engine jet/turbine time without paying for a type-rating? Almost all airlines who fly B200 or larger aircrafts require their pilots to have at least 500 hours of the type I stated. So again and this is for the last time, how do you get that kind of time without paying for it?

By towing gliders or flying advance you're not going to get it...

Best Regards
/T

On speed on profile, your comments are very accurate and have saved me having to type something very similar. Good luck with your own quest for a TR-included job - your day will come.
That said, I can see to an extent where Founder's self-righteous tone is coming from. If I was after ******* over both a) my colleagues and b) my own future prospects, I wouldn't be in too much of a hurry to admit it.

A little research will show you which companies are hiring 200hr pilots and are providing a TR. And don't tell me they aren't out there because they most certainly are.

Finally Founder, stop whining like a little girl about the language employed in here. If you can't stand the heat...

Founder, You just dont get it do you!

If you dont work hard to get a job, you are lazy. Buying a type rating is short cutting all the hard working pilots out there ie. it is the lazy route and it undercuts everyone!

I didnt claim that:

I said a SEP instructor with 3000-4000 hours needs to ask the question why they have that much time and no airline job! It is probably their ability or the (sometimes deserved, somtimes not) reputation of an SEP instructor. This is not restricted to SEP instructors though. Some are good and some SEP are also crap!!

If your friend had got a light twin job at 1000 hours, light turbo job at 1500 and then flown in that role getting multi crew turbo time, he would be knocking on loads of doors without any hours and probably have a very good chance! From the sounds of it, he bought his chance and took the lazy mans option which UNDERCUTS OUR ENTIRE PROFESSION!! If he is as good as he claims, then his flying would have shown that. I have know idea as to why he had to do 3000 hours instructing before buying a type rating. Did he not want to fly a light twin or turbo? If he didnt, then in my opinion that is lazy!

In case you didnt read my last post. I went from SEP to MEP to an offer of a jet job with 0 JET HOURS EXPERIENCE & 0 TURBO EXPERIENCE! And I havent reached 1500 hours yet so I dont know where you get your information from. Easy and Ryan have both turned me down due to "lack of hours" but that is because I wont pay for their Type Rating or the ludicrous amounts of money for them to take my application seriously! People like you will and until you dont, I wont have a chance! Easy and Ryanair arent the only options out there though. You obviously think they probably are and you are so blind that you cant see what I am saying....

Start at the bottom. SEP, Bigger SEP, MEP VFR, MEP IFR, TURBO IFR, JET IFR. SIMPLE

IT TAKES HARD WORK and is a proven formula, Read Luke Sky Toddlers thread in wannabees! http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=214174. Sometimes you get lucky and jump a step, sometimes you have to do it the hard way but if you dont do it the hard way, you wreck it for everyone!!!! If you want to get into a Beech King Air, then do what I did. It is completely wrong to suggest that you need 500 hours on type to get a B200 job! If you fly a light twin for 500-1000 hours then it is a natural progression onto an aircraft that size! Guess what, a jet is a natural progression from that!!!!!

Until you come up with a solid argument for buying a type rating, other than 'I can not be bothered to get good quality hours so I will just buy a type rating' which is what your argument is, you will continue to get slated by all the hard working pilots here!

Stop whinging, start working hard!

Founder,

You have a right vision of the situation. Please don't waist your time reading loosers as O.s.o.p.

ah ah ah, you are so funny...:)

One quick question: how many GA positions are there available today as compared to 10 years ago? How many FI(A)/MEP/B200/B1900 seats to be filled? Then compare it with the number of jet seats to be filled - 10 years ago and today.

I think you will find that on a European scale, the GA sector has slumped, while the LoCos have made the jet sector grow.

That means that from now on, there will be fewer and fewer of those who did it the hard way. Not that it's fair - I did my own stint in SEP/MEP/KingAirs and ATRs - but it's the only way that you can make up for the shortfall. When the LoCo sector is stabilised (in a few years time), the proportion of "hard workers" will grow again.

And don't forget, a lot of pilots are hired to airlines as BA, GB, BE, TC et al as cadets - but they don't pay for the typerating! So are these people jumping the queue as well? I think the two issues - of employing cadet pilots and paying for your own TR - need to be separated. You can have people with 250 hrs. flying the Bus with GB - and you can have 6000 hr. FIs paying their own TR to fly for EZ or FR. That does not imply that the Jerez-cadet in GB has jumped the queue - nor does it imply that the 6000 hr. FI was not good enough - he/she passed the skill test, the base training and the linecheck - so obviously they must be good enough to do the job, but maybe they were not so good at doing interwievs - and hey, we don't need people who are good at passing interwievs, we just need good airmen/women! :ok:

Empty

OSOP

Let me ask you a question.

You leave an integrated ATPL course with debts of 60k+ and you have been unable to secure any job flying for 3 months since you left. You then get offered a jet job with the terms that you must finance the TR and it is paid back to you over the first 3 years of employment. The bank is willing to loan you the money. If you don't take this there is a very real risk that if you are lucky you will lose your house. If you are unlucky you will declare bankruptcy. Now you talk about having a spine ...... what do you do??? Please make your answer believable. (ps - I am far from a poor soul crying actually .... money is a poor second to happiness.... see :D )

My point is not to say you're wrong. It is not to say that anyone that pays for a TR is right. My point is that there is quite simply no choice if that person has an ounce of sense, and it is unfair to place all the blame here. It is also very sad that you refer to us as "hated", "make you sick" etc. You seem to have 2 arguments with paying for TR's and also lack of towing gliders etc. I have 12 years in this industry and just because I haven't flown tail draggers etc doesn't necessarily make me any less capable if doing my job. Is a cadet at BA or bmi in the same bracket because of their lack of "doing it the hard way"? It's like saying Wayne Rooney should have turned down Man Utd and waited for Aldershot to make their approach (no offence to Aldershot supporters!!). Yes in the perfect world he should but we live in a world of opportunity ... FACT!

As I have stated in an earlier post, I feel that paying for a TR is something that a governing body or organisation like BALPA or IALPA should be addressing, not financially crippled graduates cos no one will listen. I note that you have started a seperate thread saying exactly that ...... At the risk of upsetting your gut further I daren't say you are agreeing with me :)

I know you won't suddenly agree and I won't be argueing with you but reality isn't necessarily what we would wish it to be. As regards to bonding, it is fact that they are not legally binding.

Now ... i'm off to take cover :ouch: :ok:

You did and didn't answer my question at the same time, you just stated the obvious which everyone knows. The natural progression of SEP-MEP-TP-JET is dead, why?, because there aren't almost anyone flying MEP anymore. Why is that? because they are very expensive to fly and doesn't take a lot of load, they are slow and to add to that their performance is questionable when it comes to emergencies...

Can you tell me how many companies fly MEP aircrafts today? I bet there aren't a lot of them... and if there are, most of them are probably thinking about changing them to TP's since most larger airports doesn't even provide 100LL anymore...

In Sweden all MEP aircraft companies are dead or dying, the only one's who fly MEP's today are flightschools and pilots who own them and use them for personal flights...

Look at all ad's where companies are looking for pilots, it never sais that you need 1500 hours MEP, sometimes it sais that you need 2000 hours of total time. But it almost always sais that you need at least 500 hours on the type. This means that if the company is flying a B200 for example you need to have a type-rating and at least 500 hours on that machine to be able to get a job.

Look at a company called dragonfly for example "http://www.dragonflyac.com/" they had an ad in flight international a couple of months ago where it states that they are looking for pilots, they required at least that you funded your own type-rating in order to fly with them.

Subscribe to flight internationals job newsletters, you'll get at least 5-10 per week with lots of pilot jobs, and a couple of them are Turbo-Propp based jobs, but all have one thing in common, at least 500 hours on type and/or that you have a type-rating on the aircraft that you're going to fly if you get the job.

"If you dont work hard to get a job, you are lazy." Everyone knows this. But the market is rough my friend and there isn't a lot of opitions for a new pilot to get ahead with his career.

Like I said in my first post, I would love to get a type-rating for free, but there isn't any way to get it today...

I regret that the market is the way it is. I would love to build my career the way you are doing it, but the fact is that you are one of the lucky few who get to do it that way...

I'd like to wish you good luck on finding your dream job... I do hope you get it without having to pay for a TR.

Best Regards
/Tim

You had the choice...
 

Founder, I appreciate your comments but the work is there if you are prepared to look for it. I am not saying you arent. From your tone you may be one of the ones who is. The majority of people arre not prepared to look for the work (by buying a type rating) and therefore have few options left. Probably because they didnt do their homework properly, spent too much on training in the first place and realised that this industry is tough. It is however not as tough as you or others make it out to be!

EC, Some good points.

Jet2, My point has been missed completely. I am not saying that a certain route is better or worse in terms of ability to do a job. My ability may be just as good as the crackshot 200 hour pilot, then again, it may not, that is not the argument!

The integrated subject you bring up is also a completely different subject!
I will not debate the benefits of either course. The debate here started with the topic, time to stop paying for type ratings. A pilots choice to graduate from an integrated course with £60,000+ debts is his/her own choice.

A pilot has the choice, spend £30,000 on a modular course. Do a few years hard flying. Earn a respectable living and then move into the airlines with a salary and benefits package unrivaled in most sectors

OR....

Listen to an Integrated courses 'spiel'. Spend £60,000. Leave themselves no options, be forced to do a type rating as no one will take them on and then work for next to nothing because they are so desperate to get flying and earning something just so their house DOESNT get taken and they DONT go bankrupt. Meanwhile, not realising that when they take the job for minimal pay (after agreeing to take on more debit to be able to line train) they are making things worse for their colleagues. And then when they have paid off their £60,000 debt and finally a house, they realise they have no pension! Guess what. They got shafted and while they did that, so did their colleauges who didnt make dumb decisions! Why should I get penalised!

ACP,

I have just told Founder how to 'do it' without getting a type rating and without sh:mad: ting on both his own and all his colleagues door. His "right vision" as you put it is going to cost himself, you, me and everyone else very dearly my friend! Your attack on my character is completely unwarranted. I have not heard a solid argument for your 'teams' defence!

ACP (and every other person thinking of self funding a TR) I challenge you to this...

Have you looked at the ppjn website under 'small operators'. Thats where I got my first job. I guess by the tone of your post that you are in the "I will happily buy a type rating and help to lower both myself and my colleagues T's and C's" camp and therefore, probably havent. If you couldnt find a job in those pages, ask your self why not! The answer is not because they arent there. They are and with the growing industry there are even more for you to jump into!

On Speed Profile and followers:

HERES A QUESTION FOR YOU :

1) How can a young male or female who has just completed an intergrated ATPL course survive on poor wages going the hard way and then try to pay off huge debts they have incurred from training with no rich daddy to help them ? ?

On Speed Profile I admire you greatly for going the hard way and you deserve lots of credit. Going the hard way is the best way but it just does not make sense anymore! While the upsides of going the hard way are good the downsides are hard to deal with in todays world.

ryanride, I am not out after any credit but thanks for giving it! As for your your hypothetical question. I would sympathise with either boy or girl in that situation. The truth is, they probably shouldnt have got themselves into that situation in the first place and spent the money they did have wisely and not put themselves in the situation where they had to sell their soul to the devil (read: unneccessarily expensive FTO's, LO-CO airlines and TR providers). When they made the decision to get themselves into so much debt that they couldnt afford repayments on a GA job or any other jobs salary, they gave the go ahead to the airlines to say "how badly do you want this job, what will you do to get it" and subsequently, we are watching terms and conditions in all airlines fall rapidly. That boy or girl will never get paid what they are worth as long as they have their soul subject to a mortgage! I hope that hypothetical boy or girl gets a break soon!

OSOP,

I already have a job, I am flying A321s in SE Asia. I paid my own A320 type rating and you know what...I have also paid my first 300 hours on type, another 30000$. If you don't like it, it doesn't matter to me.
I have been fully hired by the same airline at the end of my line check and now I am paid and I do not regret, that was my best decisions so far.
Please stop saying that it is underminig the industry, don't you see the number of new airlines, don't you see that they are short of (qualified) pilots?

hey, if you couldnt find a jet job, ask your self why not!!!:E

Thanks for answering my hypothetical question. Have you got that ppjn website address ? I would appreciate if you could post it on this thread.

It seems that the JAR medical requirments dont go far enough with regards to VISION!

ACP, congratulations!!

Congratulations on helping to reduce our Ts And C's and congratulations on wasting a heap of money. If you read my posts carefully you would see that I have turned one jet job down and have just passed a sim ride for another so I have no need to ask why I havent got a job flying jets! If you were smart you would realise this. The more people that do what you have done there are, the less money you get paid in the long term! And the longer it takes to pay of those horrendously massive debts that people are getting now days!

ryanride,
www.ppjn.com . mate if you have the attitude to actually look at this page then you have the attitude for the companies posted on it. good luck! Personal visits way in heavily with all these companies!!!

I think the big problem is finacial for new pilots. Both integrated and modular training costs a great deal of money and very few of those who train don't take up a loan with a house as seccurity or some other type of loan. All new pilots want to get a job which makes them able to in some way pay off their debt, and the fastet way to do this is to fund a type-rating and start working at perhaps ryan or easy...

Like you said On speed on profile, there might be a lot of jobs out there with small companies but the problem is there aren't enough jobs for all pilots and most of the jobs doesnt pay enough money. And like I said about the MEP range it's most likly going to die. There aren't a lot of airports who are going to accept aircrafts driven by 100 LL anymore because it's a big expence for them as well...

As seen from the website there are a lot of companies in the UK who seams to be operating smaller aircrafts but this is uniqe to the UK I belive. I dont know of any operators in the entire scandinavian region who operate anything smaller than a twin turbo-propp.

If anyone knows of any companies who do operate MEP's anywhere else in the EU please post let us know...

I dont know of any other way to get an ATPL/CPL than to go to a training organisation and they all charge at least 50'000 euro's for all the training up to ATPL with 250 hours and commercial certificate. What other way is there?

Thanks for that On speed profile.

Mate, I want to believe this post is tongue in cheek. However, in light of your previous posts I'm not too sure.
If you seriously went ahead and spent €50k on an integrated course without researching the alternatives, in fact without even finding out if there were alternatives, your suitability to be let fly heavy metal is seriously in doubt.

Funding Type-Ratin vs Not funding Type-Rating

Look close at these numbers:

Cost of living

1000 euro/month x 12 = 12'000 Euro

Lets say you fly SEP's as an instructors and MEP's as a halftime job with a taxi company.

You'll earn about 25 Euro/hour doing instructing and perhaps 50 euro/hour flying taxi. Lets say you fly 20 hours as an instructor per month (this is optimistic due to weather) you'll earn 25 x 20 = 500 E/month. Lets say you'll fly another 15 hours per month as a taxi flight pilot 15 x 50 = 750 E/month. In Sweden we've got a 33% tax so that leaves you with 750 + 500 = 1250 x 0,67 = 837,5 E left. That doesnt even cover the cost of living. So to add the extra money you take up another job. And what other job would have the flexibility of you working there when not working as a pilot. None...

Now you might be lucky and get to fly a lot during the summer but I know that the instructors that the school where I'm studying hasn't flown more than 20 hours since october... and financially they're still living with mom or have a very nice girlfriend who pay's a lot of the bills...

This situation is not acceptable, not for me and certanly not for the bank where I have most of my debt. And there is no other way of getting a complete training other than paying for it with a loan and the getting an airline job as fast as possible.

Now look at this:
You pay 50'000 E for an ATPL license and 250 hours to add to that. You pay another 25'000 for a type-rating, you pay another 30'000 E for line-training.
50'000 + 25'000 + 30'000 = 105'000 E And still you have to count in the costs of living during the time you study, that's another 20'000 E.

105'000 + 20'000 = 125'000 Euro.

Lets say you get a job at EasyJet flying Airbus aircraft which pays 4250 Euro/month (33060 pounds/year)

At this rate you'll pay off your debt with 2500 Euro/month
125'000/2500 = 50 months (4,1 years) in which time you will have flown 3750 hours (900/year) if you're lucky =)

To sum all of this up, after aprox 4 years:
Not paying for a TR
50'000 Euros in debt with an income of 837,5 e/m flying 35 h/m, 1750 hours on SEP/MEP aircraft.

Pay for a TR
No debt, income of 4250 E/m, 75h/m, 3750 hours of ME Jet

Now these figures may differ a bit and are on both sides optimistic. But here's is at least a guideline to why I'm paying for my type-rating first chanse I get...

Best Regards
/T

Do you really think I'm stupid enough not to look for alternatives? Do you think I'm stupid enough to spend 50'000E without talking to all the flightschools in my country and compare prices?
If you know of any other way then tell me where I would be able to get a full ATPL training with 250 hours within 2,5 years...? And my training wasn't integrated, it was modular...

Really?? Not sure what your idea of minimum pay is but if I am on minimum pay then I am set up for life!!

How on earth did you work that one out?? I joined my company pension scheme shortly after I started.

As I said ...I am not going to argue. There are an ever reducing number of GA jobs and more and more jet jobs available to newbies. I agree with the principal of what you say as paying for a TR when you have already spent thousands obtaining a licence is absurd and it's exploitation. But the industry has changed and it won't change back because every wanabee "grows a spine" and takes your route. This is reality, it's fact. Blaming people for taking opportunity that is best for them is misguided. Everyone's circumstance is different.

I wish you good luck with your career. ;)

Hey, have you guys thought of alternative C) - DONT COME INTO THE INDUSTRY AT ALL!

For goodness sake look around you - SAS say they can employ pilots from across the Baltic for less than a third of what they pay their own now, BA is looking at a pay cut of circa 40% for its pilots if either of its plans of ending or career averaging pensions comes about. More and more airlines end up with their new FO's PAYING THEM to get line experience.

This is going to HAVE toi end up with airlines crewed by employees from VERY LOW cost countries indeed - think former Soviet Union, Jugoslavia, Indian sub-continent. Its just like the shipping industry - most ships are crewed by Taiwanese, Malays, Philippinos etc etc AS WAGES IN THESE COUNTRIES ARE VERY LOW. There is no other way.

And then we will have the problems the shipping industry has had - repetitive hull lossses. The bell at Lloyds rings for every loss - it rang every day for many years I am told. Countries will have to use "flags of convenience" wherever possible just to survive. They will be "convenient" because they are cheap and they will be cheap because their oversight is limited or nil, and so consequently costs less to be registered with. Its ALREADY here. No-one can seriously argue that the IAA rivals the CAA for thoroughness and oversight - so could that be why Ryanair has all its airliners registered there?

And what kind of life will you have when you get to your coveted jet job? Have you flown 900 hours a year longhaul or worse shorthaul year in year out for a potential thirty year career? You wont live to see it out! You wont have a family life, or indeed a life at all outside work!

I been in this industry all my working life and I have never seen cost pressures like I see now. It WILL get worse - how long before the next oil shock? Iran anyone? What hapens after another 9/11 style event, should it occur? Bird flu jumps the species gap and we have SARS mark II in Europe? Companies can not justify the investment made in them with returns as they are. the ONLY one who does is Ryan - that IS the future for all of us and most companies are looking at their methodology and thinking - that is the way we will HAVE to go.

I am THE worst paid of ALL my contempories by a very long way, and I fly a wide body with a major airline.

If you have the stamina, willpower and wit to qualify to fly an airliner there are many other careers you could do and i suggest now might just be the time to investigate them.

Things in professional aviaition will only improve when the costs cycle goes full circle:

Example: BP.

BP went "foreign flag" with all of its tanker capacity at sea. The whole industry did. Then the losses mounted - Exxon Valdeze, the tankers along the Brittany coastline who ran aground and broke up. The insurers were crucified. THEY eventually demanded a return to flags of registration where standards including deck officer pay were set and met. How long have you got in your potential flying career before the wheel goes full circle in professional aviation and the same cycle occurs here too?

You can hire a Pitts, Stampe or Cesnna Aerobat on a sunny day and fly. It might be better to sit this one out and get a job where you come home at night and watch your kids grow up and prosper. The airline business is one in cyclical decline and there is much worse to come yet. Do you really want to join this? The sort of institutionalised bullying that constitutes one of the keys to Ryanairs "success" is going to become routine throughout the industry if anyone is to compete with them. Who would willingly get themselves into this?

ShortfinalFred: you are right...

But the only way to prevent the same thing happening to the airline industry as what happened to the shipping industry are clear and common rules of conduct for pilots and airlines.

The aviation world is not going to accept aircrafts falling out of the sky too often because of bad training or stressed out pilots. I'm not too affraid of that.

If there would be a major aircrash in europe every month, people would stop flying at the same amout that they are now. And if this would be because of the crew, this would lead to some serious regulation changes and in order to continue flying the airlines would have to adapt to those new rules...

The rules are already hard on airline budgets and companies like Ryan are pushing the rules to their limits. This is ok, as long as no accidents happen...