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Command Process Comparison
Flying for a Southeast Asian Carrier in HK...easy to guess...and I am quite familiar with the Command process at my outfit and the headache that it is, but I am curious what the process is at BA, VS, EK, QF to name but a few. I would like to know if one has to do an Ops and Technical interview, assessment board, 5 sims...then groundschool and simulator training, base training, 40 sectors of line training (correction...line checking) followed by a 3 bar check (Captains Check)...sectors flying with an F/O followed by a 4 bar check (with an F/O in the seat and checkie behind you) then final assessment by board. That is the approx process at my outfit...some comparisons would be appreciated. :ok:
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Hello Bushcat,
I did my upgrade with a regional in the USA in 1991 and I made command on the 737 with KLM in 1998, so it has been a while. At the commuter it was just seniority and then you went to upgrade, going through the same course as the FO's, written exam, oral on company procedures and FAR's, flight training(8 hours), exam(2hours), and IOE(initial operating experience) of 10 hours in two days. At KLM you wait your turn. Then you start with an oral exam about company procedures etc, this takes the whole day, and you have 2 examiners and you. Then ground school and sim training which you finish with a written exam and a sim exam. Then you do line training. In my case, since I swapped seats on the 737 it was one week with an instructor and then 2 weeks with a real copilot and the instructor on the jumpseat. We finish line training with a line check, a JAR requirement and then you are on your own. There are no upgrade boards or whatever unless you really mess up, then you will have a very tough assessment. The reasoning behind all this is that when KLM hires its pilots they are already checked for captaincy potential, and this is continuously monitored throughout your carreer as an FO. And let's be honest, its not rocket science to fly a plane. I think the upgrades in HK must be really tough, since such a high percentage of the candidates don't make it through. Good luck out there. |
Command "chat" with Base Captain who then nominates the FO to Flt dept.
Then rostered for 2 "coach" flights with a trainer in the left seat on regular flights. The idea being that the trainer gives you a heads up on what to expect and what is expected from you, discuss areas of weakness (if any), talking about all the "soft" issues that you will have to show that you master etc. etc. No pass or fail at this stage. Then a "check flight" on the line again with a trainer in the left seat. This is a "normal" day out where it is expected for you to make ALL the operational calls and deal with and brief the whole crew, deal with delays, slots, de-iceing, handling agents, LMC´s and so on. If you have a nice day out with none of the above issues to deal with, this should be a piece of cake, if not, you could have quite a busy day....During the day the trainer will also quiz you on manuals, company policies, tech stuff etc. etc. Some trainers ask more, some less.....This is a pass or fail day... Then its time for interview/sim days...2 days with pass or fail... If this is completed to a good standard you will be put in a command pool...where you will swim for about 9-12 months (at the moment I believe this is correct) and then its time for you command course. Ground school and sim followed by line training and a line check. That´s about it I think.... /CP |
In my UK charter outfit.
1. You have to bid for a command. No bid = not considered. 2. Out of those who have bid, they are assessed in seniority order. 3. Then your training file is pulled and assessed by the Command Selection Board. 4. Ratification by the board if you have good sim performance track record and they think you are acceptable. 5. Rostered a Command Evaluation which is in three phases of between 8-12 sectors each phase. Phase 1 is build-up where you are PF for about 80% of the sectors and you are questioned at length over procedures, rules, scenarios etc during the cruise phase. Input will be offered from the Training Captain during Phase 1, but they do expect you to know the vast majority of it already. This phase is non-reportable (but only the mug would think that nothing is passed on to the next trainer!;) ) Phase 2 and 3 are the Evaluation Phases where you run the show completely from the right seat, making all decisions with only 'competent F/O' input coming from the Training Captain. During Phase 2 you are expected to do lots of hand-flying (conditions permitting), including raw data and the 'cruise questioning' continues with them virtually working their way through the line training syllabus. Each phase is reportable and after all three phases the reports go back to the Command Selection Board who determine whether or not you will be offered a Command Course. Timescale from successful bid to course depends on requirements and when the CSB sit, but during our current expansion it took me 6 months, with another 4 months until the Command Course was finished. All in all, very intense (as they all sound above!) and with my limited capacity I ate and drank 'command' for the 10 months. Interestingly the procedure was ammended last year to what I have just posted, previously I heard it was one of the most drawn out in the industry (which was fine with a 15 year wait for a command). This involved a sim 'chop' ride where you were put over the Alps and given a decompression and various other problems leading to diversion, G/A and another diversion. Apparently it was a 'load em up and see if they can handle it' exercise, which was not very scientific and it was pointed out that with 15 years worth of training file history on each F/O then perhaps the training department wasn't doing a very good job if they didn't know who would 'make it' without this sim ride. PP |
At VS the process seems a little more straightforward than others reported here. Currently, once a pilot has 6000 hours, including at least 1000 hours in Virgin (realistically it'll be at least 9000TT with at least 5000 in Virgin), and the appropriate seniority, he or she will be assessed in absentia by a command board. If found suitable after a perusal of trainers' reports, the candidate will be invited to complete 3 Pre-Command Assessment simulator sessions, which are complex LOFT scenarios. Success at PCA puts them in the waiting list for a command course, which is 20 LHS longhaul sectors. No groundschool, but lots of in-seat examination.
The system is due to change slightly in that a First Officer Development Programme is being instituted in which FO's will receive an extra, assessed, LOFT sim each year. As they approach the seniority for command, the Command Board will decide whether their performance in the FODP justifies them being entered for Command Training. Whether there will be any kind of PCA I don't know. There is a move afoot to reduce the number of sectors in command training, as, it is considered, the experience levels of our new commanders is such that they should be quite capable of doing the job from the off. However, it would be nice to see some groundschool that covered the legal responsibilities of a commander and went into more detail about the various trades that support the flying operation. |
CommitedToStay....there is no "apparent" bias to any particular ethnic group...one is equally treated as a moron. Although, some believe that some checkers/trainers differ in temperament dependent on ethnic background. What I can say for sure is that our course is designed to put you under so much stress and pressure that given the number of sectors one does (40, plus the rest of it) that sooner or later a major cock up will occur and then they want to see how you come back from that. But even then...one can pass the whole ordeal...and the final assessment board shoots you down because of reports that were written about your progress at the very start and/or prior to the command course.
So far from the replys I have seen...ours is not a very practical or cost efficient method of selecting/evaluating or training Command prospects...ooopps...I do apologise, I used that word "training" in reference to my outfit....checking Command prospects. It would seem lately, especially here, that debriefing techniques and report writing (ie positively) has gone right out the window. Long gone are the days of a hard verbal debriefing, followed by encouranging and positive report writing, at least at my outfit anyway. Your comments...one and all...are greatly appreciated. Thanks:ok: |
Scary stuff!
One thing that is common to all command assessments is that not many existing Captains would pass them a few years down the line - I'm sure I wouldn't. You are never sharper and more knowledgeable than in the year before and the year following your first proper command. |
40 line sectors would seem to be a bit excessive and the whole course overly long. Why isn't the paperwork and legal necessities completed during the latter part of the F/O career? You haven't mentioned the final important box to tick - is this candidate safe enough to trust with my family?!
Good luck and remember it's a game and you have to play by the rules! |
Bushcat 400,
Watch the process change dranatically when they dont have enough candidates for the slots! I think the Virgin upgrade is the best around, but I would not like to qwote it exactly in case I have it wrong, but perhaps someone else will? |
They already have!
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Tyrolean Airways, Austria
PHASE I (PICUS) Phase I of the program, which is the PICUS phase, begins with First Officers receiving and starting to fill out the Folder once 2300 hours is attained. The first 150 hours will be logged as PICUS (Pilot in Command under Supervision) and shall be entered into the Folder only when flying with Instructors and Experienced Commanders, acc to OM Part A (FOM). The Instructors and Experienced Commanders will allow the Candidates to conduct routine duties that are normally performed by the PIC. Examples of these may be; crew briefings, fuel uplift decisions and PIC related paperwork, such as the filling out of the TAL except for the PIC’s signature. There will be no documented material or de-briefings aside from the logging of the PICUS time in the Folder by the Candidate as well as having it well documented in each person’s logbooks. Once each candidate has logged the 150 hours PICUS time, he/she shall immediately send the folder back to the Training Department. PHASE II (Pre-Upgrading Evaluation) If Commander posts are available, the Training Department will return the folder to the Candidate to start Phase II of the program, which is the Pre-Upgrading Evaluation phase. Phase II is designed to determine if suitable Candidates meet specific decision based and operational tasks in addition to their normal flying skills. A period of 25 legs flying with different Instructors and Specially Nominated Commanders will give both sides a glance of what to expect in a possible upgrading / Command Course. - The Candidates will be given the opportunity to demonstrate their readiness without being asked too deeply into Commander specific duties. - The Candidates will have to show their precise application of SOPs and OM Part A (FOM) knowledge, although Instructors/Specially Nominated Commanders will let them know if there are any procedures, callouts... that need to be reviewed and improved upon. This will be done, in clear written form, on the respective pages of the Training Progress File. If the 25 legs are judged in a positive manner, along with the final decision of the respective Fleet Chief, the Candidate will be offered a Command Course when the need arises. However, the Fleet Chief’s authorization only has a validity period of 6 months. All decisions for upgrading exceeding the validity period indicated at the end of the folder or failure of a Recurrent Proficiency Check or Line Check during this period, requires the re-authorization of the respective Fleet Chief. If the respective Fleet Chief is not satisfied with the Candidate’s overall performance, he may decide to return the Pre-Upgrading Evaluation Folder to the Candidate for an additional pre-determined number of sector legs. However, if at the end of the entire evaluation period, the folder still reflects below standard performance, for whatever reason, the Candidate may be given an individual time period to re-qualify for another Pre-Upgrading Evaluation assessment only after consultation with the Manager Flight Crew Training and the Manger Flight Operations. Note: In both cases the last session is a checkride. Next 100 hours of supervision on the aircraft are flown with an instructor, topped by a line check. After the line check the checker retreats from the jumpseat to the cabin. I'm not that firm on the classroom lessons given but do remember a one or two-day CRM refresher and some FOM refresher, all together less than a week. Upgradings are by seniority, of course. If different types are available the company may assign as they find practical, as long as the most senior pilots who apply get upgraded. I do second the notion that some "refresher" on the legal aspects of moving left would be covered. |
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