What makes you think the regulators would be forced to step in? - BA is a private company and any industrial dispute is between the company and its staff - what the regulators think doesn't come into it.

You don't say! :rolleyes:

The numbers BA are talking about are within a whisker of what BALPA are trying to achieve, whilst at the same time getting a much fairer solution for the staff, the pilots in particular. Why won't BA accept BALPA's solution? Because they're arrogant and it will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they've been lying all along. Hopefully they will see sense before their hand needs to be forced.

Jet II,

I suggest you visit the pensions regulator website to find out what his sweeping powers are, then you will soon realise "whats it to do with him".
I believe it is thepensionsregulator.co.uk

I am not BA but I have been through the same process and had my final salary pension raped and pillaged by the management of Spotty M, unfortunately the advice from Big Balpa was to accept this, hence my fellow colleagues had no stomach for a fight against the advice of the union.

I'd be very surprised if the advice from Balpa is not to accept what ever has been agreed between BA and the Trusties, just my hunch.

Good luck with the fight, I sincerely hope you are more successful in securing what you were originally promised than we were.

Short final fred

Who is taunting, you give that impression, I suggest you re read your rants!!! On a soap box or what ..... do you own any brown shirts ?...:D

Carnage Matey sayeth:
"Well my mole at Waterside tells me the vast majority of staff there don't really understand the implications of the proposals or of the strength of feeling amongst the pilot community. No change from the usual form there then.

I'm sure the company believe that some of the unions are on-side, the GMB being a prime example. Unfortunately for them you can have as many bean-counters, pen-pushers, latte-sippers and wildcat strikers as you like on-side, until they can fly a plane the company is going nowhere without the pilots."

Actually, I think a lot of non-flying staff do understand and it's an uphill struggle to get the message about the full implications across. The company does not like the unions putting across the real calculations and has, shall we say, not been helpful...

When you have large numbers of staff on performance pay, totally dependent of the grace & favour of management for progression and pay rises, there's an understandable reluctance to rock the boat too much.

Mark.

I can't help but think balpa's attempts to grab the BARP support by promising a 'significant improvement' is well short of the mark, and may end up with some junior guys not ticking that box for IA.

The trouble for the BARP guys is not just their current laughable pension. If BA win this, they will come after the payscales. The boss has stated he would like to see five pay points.

Not only that, the "pensionable pay" being capped at RPI inflation applies just as much to the BARP guys and will hit them even harder than the NAPS guys. Look thirty years ahead. For mathematics sake, if RPI is 3% and we achieve 4% pay rises, after thirty years the chasm between actual pay and pensionable pay will be vast. As a NAPS pilot, if you were expecting a £60k pension in today's money, it will be worth nearer £35k which is bad enough. However, if you were expecting an already shocking £10k pension from BARP, you will get nearer £6k as it's based on the same pensionable pay. If that's not worth striking for, I don't know what is.

Human Factor
"if you were expecting an already shocking £10k pension from BARP, you will get nearer £6k as it's based on the same pensionable pay. If that's not worth striking for, I don't know what is."

Well here's one vote for you, I wouldn't strike over it. Rather have a solvent employer that can afford to raise my basic pay which is the only way I'll be able to afford a pension at all.

Barney

GMB not on BA's side
 

Mark, this mole based at Waterside can categorically state that the GMB is NOT on BA's side, but is only interested in achieving the best for their members through normal democratic process. Some of the GMB members also happen to be the lowest paid in BA.

That is a joke Barney, isn't it? Having shown BALPA to be a toothless tiger unable to organise a strike against the biggest smash and grab in this companys history how do you suggest that you are going to negotiate anything more than the corporate pay deal, which will be RPI at most? If you want a decent pay rise support BALPA now or you'll be getting the same pay rise as the check-in staff and baggage handlers for the next ten years.

IMHO you are a tad naive Barney. The company has pursued and is pursuing a cut costs at ANY cost policy with scant regard to flying conditions, safety or anything else.
I take it you don't work for BA as the likelihood of BA raising your pay enough to make a substantial difference to your pension is virtually nil. What I would envisage, should this standoff fail, is a reduction (as has already been alluded to by LCG) to 5 pay points, and a drop in pay overall for all of us for our careers. After all they're hardly likely to change the pay scales to benefit the pilot community now are they?
Or am I just being cynical.....:hmm:

As Slamitin suggests, the Pensions Regulator has EVERY interest, and indeed has strong and sweeping powers if the matter is not resolved! Legislation has changed, it seems you're not up to date with it.........

Like Slamitin, my companies scheme has also undergone large changes over the last few years. Could retire at 55 without penalty, now retire at 60 or loose 6%/yr. Pilot contributions gone up by 50% etc. BALPA's pensions guy attended the pilot meetings to discuss the changes, and we were told it's everyones problem, not just the companies. We were told to be realistic, and accept the changed conditions upon the table. Now it's going to happen to poor old BA employees you all seem to think it's unfair! I trust BALPA supports you in the same way it supported us - with the same advice!

Welcome to the real world..........

Nice attitude 30W. "I got screwed so now I hope everybody else gets the same treatment". Fortunately our BALPA reps are fighting for us. What did yours do?

Carnage,

I have no idea which company 30W works for but I'm pretty sure his/hers equally tough talking BALPA reps did nothing more than listen to the advice from New Road. And yes that advice is rather unpalatable.

As a very disappionted BALPA member, I would be rather surprised if BA pilots do not receive that same unpalatable advice. Do you believe that your reps will go against such advice?

It's a sad fact that BALPA HQ do not have the balls to support Industrial Action despite your own personal resolve.

If Balpa does for BA what it did for our company, then there's little hope for success. We were screwed by the company with Balpa's blessing, as 30W indicates.
If Balpa does well for BA then its further confirmation that Balpa is a BA only association. For the Regional and Charters, TOUGH that's the best we can do, we recommend you to accept was the cry!!
You may just find out what it's been like for us the last 10 years or so, welcome to the unpleasant, greedy world of today’s corporate culture.
As a 27 year Balpa member I wish you all the luck, but I won’t hold my breath.

Carnage, Our reps took professional advice from New Road! That advice was to accept pensions reality and accept it, they even came around to members meetings jointly with the company and re-inforced that!!!

You do what you want about your pension scheme, and genuinely wish you the best of luck in doing so - all I ask is NOT to see double standards applied by New Road! I ask if it's ok by BALPA to support such rape and pilliage of others schemes, why are YOU a different case?

30W

Well, if they dont then BALPA in any meaningful form will cease to exist.

I think BALPA have made a very reasonable counter-offer to BA, which BA would be well advised to accept. If they dont, I guarantee a strike.

As an aside its odd that, for defending my contractual rights, I can be termed both a "Comrade" and a "Fascist". BA squandered millions and, in effect, expect the staff to pay for it. That is about all I have said, and I am certain that BA staff will not underwrite the mistakes of the past by surrendering their economic futures. I would add that BA has become a corporate bully of the worst kind, who'se treatment of flying staff in particular has seemed calculated to provoke the strike that will be not long in coming.

As I understand it the argument is that BA can afford BALPAs proposal (which would mean poorer benefits than those available to current retirees). Is it beyond the realm of possibility that BALPA realised that your company could not afford to meet its' commitment to your pension fund and there was no room for manouvre?

If that were the case, then I could reason with the argument. However the case is good profits made, more than sufficient to clear pension debt in one year (but in doing so not make city targets). Board members take huge bonus', and the scale of debt is NOTHING like BA's (proportionate on debt/company profit) I would say. No, it's more matter of case that BALPA have told most pilots in this country to accept the changes, but suddenly, oh, BA pilots, a different case......

Are BA pilots really surprised this doesn't wash with the rest of industry who have NOT received the support from BALPA that you now ask for?

Jesus Barney, just because you took a good shafting from Cabair it doesn't mean you have to expect this type of behaviour from all employers, this is Big A, expect better.

Now the Unions meeting with BA has finished, BA forgot to bring a lot of their figures with them so a new meeting will have to be arranged. Is this just incompetence? They also "accidentally" told the Worlds media that pilots and cc where increasing retirement age 5 years to 65 when they really meant 10 years from 55, or put another way 10/30ths or 33%.

All this deception is contributing impressively to pilot unity. Bring it on BA. BALPA have already met you half way.