when is the move to terminal 5?
a six week "hiatus" over that move could be the "catalyst" to render all current suggestions and arguments "redundant".
it,s your language!
be careful out there.....:uhoh:

It'll all be over one way or another before the move to T5 (which is around March 2008)

Actually, I see it as purely "business", and don't take it personally. That's their job, to pay their workforce as little as possible. I'm not "in this business" of dealing with "them". I fly airplanes. I enjoy my co-workers, and the tasks I do-flying, and directly related tasks. Everything else is a pain in the ass. I think it's already been explained to you by someone, but it's kind of like flying in the military (USAF for me)...great coworkers, great mission (flying and directly related duties), but all the other crap that came with it....well, that's why their retention rate in my time was only ~ 30%. Now we're tied to seniority, later in life and have financial requirements. Now if the other crap gets too much, pay too little...well many might bail out. Fortunately, there's not one of those "dirty bastards" in my 'office' (cockpit), telling me how "we" cost too much. So, as you see, there's no direct contact with them- just their normal propoganda machine output (papers, daily electronic publications, chief pilot hotlines, etc...) attempting to LOWER my expectations (ie...FUD - fear, uncertainy, & doom - campaign).

I enjoyed the GMM podcast from post 959.
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But the answer to the question that started at 25:52 about pay point 24 and do the pilots get more out of the pension than other staff could of been answered in a more honest way.
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Looking at basic numbers the pilots get more out than other staff due to this pay point 24, pound for pound how much more???

Proportionally, the pilots take out about the same as they put in to the fund. They contribute (including company contributions) somewhere between 25-30% of the fund and take out about the same. I don't have the exact figures to hand but they're in the high twenties percent.

That said, in pure cash terms, we pay more cash in so we should get more cash out. The pp24 is a bit of a red herring. Pilots at BA have a "pensionable" pay scale which is 80% of a given pay point and doesn't include allowances. The "final salary" is that number so if you have earned 30/52nds towards your pension, you would actually get 30/52nds of 80% of pp24 Basic Pay (or less if you haven't been in 24+ years).

A Captain retiring on pp24 after 30 years will in fact get a pension of 46% of his final "actual" basic salary on the current deal!!

Doesn't seem quite so rosy now does it considering BA want to give us 50% of that.

PS: I forgot to say that the 46% is also reduced by the "Abatement" of the state pension which at the moment is about £6000.

I know the BA pensions proposal stinks, however you boys at LHR will have to wake up and smell the coffee of the real world outside that of Waterworld, the glory days of flying and cheese boards are over, if you dont believe me fair enough, but lets wait and see what WW is prepared to do to prove his point......:}

I rather think you should wait and see what we are prepared to do to prove our point to little tie-less WW. I can guarantee that we can hurt him rather more than he can us, and we will if we have to...

BA pilots are spoiled ...

if you don't like your work, thousand of pilots are ready to take your job and even work for free. this is the actual market.:{

I'm not entirely sure where they are. We've been recruiting for a while and we don't seem to be tempting too many away from other airlines.

If you want to do my job for free, you're welcome. You may then get an idea how spoiled we are. After that, you may like to work for our competitors for free and see how efficient we are compared to them. Unfortunately, you'll be the only one working for nothing as the bright people will have left.

ROFLMA. :D

"Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome onboard this BA flight to HKG. I started last week and I am working for free. The A380 is a little bigger than my C152, but no matter I have bought myself an Atlas. My F.O. is also working for free. He now has 200 hours and is very confident. The insurance company welcomes this move, as they now refuses to insure any BA aircraft after the recent small incidents, and one hull loss. But do not worry, just because I am willing to prostitute myself, you are totally safe. Experience and professionalism count for nothing in aviation. A free pilot is clearly the best pilot. Now my cousin would like to be a surgeon. He is willing to operate for free. Any volunteers? Free facelifts, a practice lower limb amputation, small heart by-pass for free? No?... Trust me, a surgeon that works for free is just as good as one who charges for his services.... He must be, he is prepared to work for free...."

The sound of tumbleweed is heard.....

Ah, but "basic" salary does not include allowances, therefore you are understating the % of real "basic" salary. Allowances regime has indeed changed significantly, but that does not make them now a part of that "basic" salary by any means!

Basic salary has never included allowances. What's your point?

Thanks for post Human Factor, pls see the following examples of what I thought question was about.
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Non pilot staff works for 24yrs at a basic of 40k, he pays 5.25% into pension each year.
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Pilot works for 24yrs and his basic rolls from 28k to 52k and he also pays 5.25% into pension each year.
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So they have both paid in the same about.
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40k minus the 6k abate = 34k @ 24/56 = pen of about £14,571 PA.
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52k minus the 6k abate = 46k @ 24/56 = pen of about £19,714 PA.
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The above example is simple and would need to be refined to get correct value of who gets most out of the pension pot.
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Also remember BA payments to pension are linked to the staff member payments so this will again roll up the problem. ie, BA have also under funded the pension!
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With BA saying they put in 3 or 4 times what staff put in makes even more strange pension funding figures?

But BA have paid more into the fund for the pilot than for the ground staff member. BAs contributions have always been a higher multiple of the staff members payments for flight crew.

So the question on that podcast was good. ie, the pilots put more pressure on the pension/BA, looks like BALPA worth every penny they get paid.
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Another good question on that podcast was a chap asking "is it correct to say that BA can afford to pay has now changed to BA can't afford to pay and NAPS as we know it will be history" I think he voiced what many staff think, any changes to NAPS will be the thin end of the wedge!
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I had a dream last night, BA opened up APS to any staff that want to join it!!!

Lucifer,

Good point!!

If you want to include allowances, for a pp24 Captain allowances add around 10% onto his basic pay packet under the "new" regime. On that basis, his pension after thirty years as a percentage of "overall salary" (including allowances) is around 41%, not including the abatement. If you want to include the abatement, it makes it around 38% of overall salary (including allowances).

The sum is: 30/52 x 80% x (Overall pay - allowances) - Abatement = Final Pension

The people who have done less than 24 years get less and BA are trying to cut that in half as well. You try to explain 20% of your final salary to your family when you were promised 46%.

My dear chap.... I think WW will do what he has too, look what he did at AER Fungus......I think you guys ,unfortunately ,will be on a hidding to nothing..............:}

And what did WW do at Aer Lingus? Let me see: he tried to privatise an assett of the Irish state in such a way that he and a couple of other directors would have made themselves enormous gains from the process. So much so that the government minister concerned was moved to say that it was not the purpose of the privatisation to allow selected individuals to make enormous gains from, in effect, the people of Ireland.

In consequence WW and his fellow would-be profiteers resigned in protest, not before provokong a pilot strike. Contrary to populist rabble-rousing in the likes of the Daily Mirror and so on, it takes a lot to make pilots strike and one could legitimately argue that such a vote of no confidence in the leadership of the company from such a critical group says more about the chief exec concerned than it does about the pilots.

I doubt very much, from your mocking tone, that you see it that way. "More caviar anybody?" sounds more like your style. How big was the bonus this year? Bigger still next year, no doubt, if you can succeeed in trashing the futures of every pilot in BA! I suggest that both WW and your good self are making an enormous mistake if you think any of this will succeed.

It will not.

BACON pilots need to realise that they are going to be worse off when Flybe take over. Not much, but worse.

You are going to lose:

1, rostering agreement

2, rosters

3, some pay - you make keep cuurent levels but there will be no increase until the Flybe rates catch you up. (what are you going to do? Strike in your aircraft that has just been returned to the lessor because it lost them money? Quake).

4, BA will cut all rights you have at present as soon as they can so - forget the business seat to Tahiti this year and next. And the next.

5, Get used to working for a company that could go bust tomorrow. Put away the BA umbrella. Its gone.

6, Sorry. It used to be a fabulous airline. Made money. And you would have been a lot better off if Ba had never picked up the phone...

AP

EXACTLY!! We have the same thing happening at AA....a transfer of $$, plain and simple.
I'm gonna have to get back on the 777, so I can get over to LHR and have some beers with some of you guys.
KC135777 (now 757/767)