Air Atlanta upgrades
 

Anyone get the call for an upgrade course on the 742 in October yet?

Maybe Jerry O'S can give us an update.:}

Upgrade Really,
To violate 3 to 6 rules to move an airplane, only then to call ones self proffesional.
Make us all laugh again.
Estatic to be allowed now to work for an Airline that lies and deciet are frowned upon.

The promises of upgrades, are there to retain the faithful.

That's what our outfit does to boost moral.

Isaac

Maybe the course has been cancelled.

They can still find DEC's I guess.

Air Atlanta
 

On www.climbto350.com ( a pay site ), I see that on Oct. 3rd, Air Atlanta advertised for 747-200 crews ( all seats ) with interviews in MIA on Oct. 23/24. The job posting didn't even require previous 747 time. They were asking for DEC's.

Why would they take people off the street rather than upgrade their existing FO's. It would seem to be cheaper to upgrade an existing FO than train a guy off the street with no 747 time.

What do you know about this company ?

What do I know about this company?

They pay some of the lowest wages in the industry for cockpit crews.
They pay their mechanics better wages than flight crew.
No per diem.
Very little time off. They used to work the cockpit crew for three months then eight days off at home. I would guess this to still be the case.
Forget about upgrades unless you are a "cod-head".
Zero benefits.
If a Flight Attendant does well they put them in a management position. Have you ever heard of a company that is run by Flight Attendants?
Don't think about it unless McDonald's won't give you an application!
Been there, done that, got the shirt-never again!

classic

I feel for the guys waiting for their command upgrades, I have flown with most of them and can say they are in the right seat only because they are still waiting for the course.

However I do not agree with all that has been said here.

I believe and these are only my thoughts that the company planned for upgrade courses last year (and Jerry past this news onto the guys waiting).

But Air Atlanta´s requirement changes rapidly and so does their ability to offer command upgrades.

This summer was impossible because of the amount of pilots that had to be trained.

since the 767´s joined Air Atlanta they upgraded around 16 first officers, and would have upgraded more this summer if they had the resources to do so.

Out of those 16 only 1 was Icelandic.

I say again, I feel for the guys waiting, the AAI market has changed and your turn has been put back again, But AAI is expanding a great deal and the future looks very good for you.

Maybe next year will be your year, I hope so

If you are Norwegian and flown for their national airline, 737 or another medium weight jet, you will be trained on the 747 and straight in the LHS.

Some of the most appalling examples of nepotism I have ever seen were in AAI. As I found this and the lies coming out of Iceland and the UK unacceptable I did the decent thing and left. Fortunately I could afford to.

The CP AAI, well words fail me.

Dear 747 classic,I feel i must respond to your statement that AAI pay their mechanics more than flight crews,this is factualy incorrect.There is not 1 mechanic that earns more than any cockpit crew,I think you maybe refering to "Certifying Staff" the CRS personnel at AAI make a basic wage comparible to a Captain however a CRS contract is based on a basic Month of 200 hours and any overtime payments are only made after that.I was making a basic salary of $5850 per month working 10 days 10 night and 10 off when we changed from days to nights we worked a day shift then a night shift,the 10 days off included 2 days travelling time.These salaries for certifying staff(not mechanics)are below industry average and have not been increased for over 10 years,also please bear in mind that salaries are by and large governed by the law of supply and demand and at the present time there is a worldwide shortage of qualified(Read:certifying staff)technicians.I know personaly of several certifying technicians who only stay there for the 10 days off.By the way I no longer work for AAI(left Madrid July 2001)If any of You know me please drop Me a PM.
Best regards
matkat

I guess the answer to my question is nobody.

The sudden hiring frenzy could conceivably be a spool-up for the Hadj beginning in December, or it could reflect some obvious desperation by the carrier in attracting and keeping experienced crews at relatively low industry pay. Needless to say, there is never any shortage of experienced and qualified crews when commensurate compensation is proffered.
:{ :{ :{

Well lets see matkat.
Last I recall a F/O made 173 per day.
That times 30 comes to 5,190.
Less than your figure of 5,850.
You also get 10 days off at home a month with the same pay, poor old F/O gets this subtracted from his pay of 5,190.
So if for say he takes 10 days off a month such as you then his salary gets reduced by 1,730.
Making his bring home a month 3,460.
Most F/O only go home every 3 months otherwise they cannot afford it.
Do you understand this or should we break it down more for you.

I have to agree with Howlow... When I "did time" in MAD w/AAI one of the mechanics told me he was making $6,000+/mo. working 20 days/mo. then getting 10 days off each month at home. That sounds one hell of a lot better than the $5500/mo. that I was paid and then the 8 days at home every 3 months!

And for the Iceman, (Should it not be Icelandicman?) if the 1 in 16 statement you made is true then AAI must of upgraded all the cod-head F/O's (you know the ones, they went from 1000 hours in a C150 to the right seat of a heavy) sometime in the pervious 4 year sense I left AAI.
By not addressing the other charges that I made about AAI you must agree with me.

classic

I have to agree with Howlo and 747 classic, this was the pay scale when I resigned as of Jan this year.
My pay was slightly higher as I worked there for 6 years.
Even then I had to fight for pay increases according to my contract.
Had to fight for this and even after getting the increase no explanation was given as to why this was withheld. (18 months)
Even after I ask for it in writing.
A nice I made a mistake would have been nice.

747classic, Just to answer your question, I am not Icelandic.

The reason I only responded to one of your points is becuase this was the only item which was on the topic of upgrades.

I can only speak about the 767 fleet, and I say again 16 upgrades in 4 years and only one of them was Icelandic.

Anyone on the 767 know of any more than the 1 I mention?

I'm sure the other points you mention are those you experienced but on the 767 fleet things were a little different,

One example was the fo's started on $200 per day and capts on $250 per day, ($6000pm, $7500).

The pay for those guys now are $230 per day for the fo and $280 for the captain ($6900 pm ,$8400).

Gentlemen,let Me break it down a little further on the 21 days we worked (remember we worked 2 days on one shift)we never had any days of we had 2 days travelling time on the days off therefore we had 8 days off we were routinely expected to work 12 hours per day for the compete rota,however you guys were having days off in between flights.I do contend that our shift pattern was better arranged than Yours however whos fault is that?Please read My post carefully I said no MECHANICS were paid more than cockpit crew as I previously said CERTIFYING STAFF salaries were roughly equivalent to a Captains,by definition a MECHANIC is not CERTIFYING STAFF They are the people who certify Your A/C as fit for flight that is the reason why the salaries are higher.Personally I think all of AAI staff are underpaid and having been privey to an AAI contract some years back(In Tunis)I know they can certainly afford it.Please do not get all upset by what I say because I am for sure in agreement with You its just when You post remarks that AAI pay their MECHANICS more than flight crew it is incorrect by definition,If I rember mechanics were paid from $3000-$4800 but to be at the upper scale they had to have been with AAI for some considerable time or had a head like a certain sea creature.

matkat

matkat,

I certainly am in agreement when you say that, "all of AAI staff are underpaid" and you being privey to a contract, "they certainly can afford it"(pay better).
BUT, in your first post you state that you were paid $5850 and 10 days at home per month (now you say you were only paid $3000 - $4800 for 21 days of work. Which is correct?) while I was paid $5500 per month with 8 days at home every three months. It still looks to me like the mechanics got a better deal! What am I missing here?

classic

Gentlemen,there seems to be a bit of confusion here,when with AAI I was certifying staff,mechanics are not certifying staff and are consequently on the lower rate mentioned.I did not say I was on the lower rate and please bear in mind the figures I mentioned for MECHANICS must be treated as approx as it was 3 years ago when I was in Madrid and are as best as I can remember.Personally I was paid $5850,the total breakdown for certifying Staff is as follows,My salary level was based on being with AAI for 2 years if My memory serves me correctly it would go up every year(By $50 per month,I think) to a maximum of 10 years.Extras were shift leader +10% of basic salary.Overtime was paid at $20 per hour either after working 12 hours in any shift or accumulating more than 200 hours in your rotation,both were often exceeded,Lead Technician was paid 20% of basic i.e. Mohammed in MAD.Flying pay was paid at $10 per hour.
hope this clears up any confusion and My apologies for same.As for the 8 days at home I did conceed that our shift patterns were better than Yours when I first worked for AAI in 1995 we had the same pattern as You but negotiated a different one and really that is what You all should do, but believe me working line maintenance for 10&half days and 10&half nights you are on deaths door
matkat

ground engineers with AAI work their ass off.
No way would I ever want their job.
Just like the pilots they are underpaid and overworked and expected to perform beyond the normal requirements, yet the company does not appreciate that.
I remember after 911 when we went under a new contract which was much less to help the company.
We were promised an even better contract after the company turned around.
What was offered was even less than our original contract.
AAI was making more money than ever at this point.
I pretty much made the decision to resign after that and went back to my previous airline.
AAI has a lot of problems and need to realize that the pilots and ground engineers are the most contributing factor to the companies survival.
Have many friends still working there and wish all the best.

You guys that are still at AAI should form a UNION! The "cod-heads" did and they got a better deal. With the hajj coming up, it couldn't be a better time with AAI desperately trying to recruit crews at the meger wages and no benies!

classic

At one stage this year AAI had offered 8 B747's for a specific Hajj contract, they pulled out of it at relatively short notice stating that the union objected to the contract due to ME security concerns.

Now 747Classic is saying that they dont have a union?? :):)

Remember that in this business that whey you start lying to your customers, it will come back to bite you!


Mutt.

Hi Mutt,
My info is based on 4 years ago, but I still believe that the "Indigenous Crews" still have a Union while the "Contract Crews" do not. Therefore the low wages, no benies and overall conditions.
8-B747's? That could only mean Saudia. Are you saying that they are not going to be flying for Saudia during this years hajj? Who will be filling the void and what is AAI going to be doing with the aircraft?

Earl i could not agree with You more.As for Unions(and I can only talk about engineering here)The "Fish head" engineers definately DO have a union and in fact they threatend to go on strike whilst I was in Madrid and did in fact pack in and go back to EB2 only for their demands to be met poste-haste and a resumption of work to take place,I cannot entirely remember what it was all about but obviously pay and conditions were the main factor.Not long after that We were issued contracts which was a first!
I just remembered that when the contracts were actually issued I was in charge of a shift and had to go through the contracts of the guys i was responsible for with the base accountant,well you can imagine My astonishment when I saw that 1 of the MECHANICS I was supervising was being paid $1500 P.M. more than Me,this Guy never even had a mechanics license(which under the Company exposition He had to have)or any responsibilty this is the first time i have mentioned it however to be honest it never really bothered me as when I joined they made Me an offer which I felt(at the time) was ok.
All the best
matkat

Hey Classic

Don't really even need a union, although admittedly it would be desireble, just a group of strong people with principles to stand together.

Of course they won't and the company is wetting themselves laughing all the way to the bank.

747Classic,

Presently that is correct, dont know, dont know~!


Mutt.

I think you'll find that alot of the upgrades are being reserved for the upcoming merger/buyout of excel and the use of their genuinly licenced permenant pilots up grading. Need to raise the bar and all that what. apologies to the aae chaps who have a first world licence.
NB the first world ends at 16w

Gee Monty...think u just described a UNION!:rolleyes: :hmm:

Not necessarily.

All unions I have been associated with, have their hand out wanting money, normally a percentage of one's salary. As a group, a union normally has more power, as there is usually an affiliation with some other union but of course is much more long winded, when decisions have to be made.

As a group of employees (non union) getting together and taking direct action ie stop work, on some issue is slightly different but just as effective, if they are prepared to hold out.

That's the way I see it.

Only when you squeak will you get that drop of oil. :ugh:

Earl

Indeed correct, there is no religious discrimination. However there is racial discrimination. Blatant in my opinion.

Apart from Icelandic, Norwegian is the race of the game.

Prove me wrong.

See your point.

Convert?? Let us take the reverse shall we?

If you convert from Islam to Christianity, it is looked upon as blasphemous, punishable by death.

So AAI are telling you to renounce Christianity?

The choice is yours of course but C to I is a one-way conversion.

See what we are dealing with?

Now anyone tell me that is a level playing field.

Understood and good for you.

Well ,we all know what a "show of s***" the people that are trying to force this upon you, are.

Nuf said.

Earl

If you think the guys and girls at AAI are well off, then you, yourself are not in a very good position, I am sorry to say.

Worst company I have ever worked for.

AAI Command Upgrades are continuing apace. Of the initial 15 commands offered on the B747, 12 are completely finished, and on the line, to my knowledge.... with the remaining three in progress. I cannot shed light on the October class, sorry, "guys-in-the-wings".

From personal experience I can confirm that the upgrade training has been executed professionally! No shortcuts, nor favouritism in my view. Granted, of the first five upgrades (of 15) 3 were Icelandic, but, hey.... It's their train-set!

As for Howlow & FKA's aspersions, AAI is a drastically different place to work these days.

Paladini

Thanks for the info.

I only asked one question, got 2 replies that were relavant and 3 pages of BS.

Hopefully, my reponse was one of the relevent ones. Sorry about the others!

P.:cool:

I have read above that we should create a union. That is right.

What we must do is to get united and represented by a guy (could be a lawyer) from outside the airline.

To reach that point, we must first set up a kind of web site, elect the guy and dictate our conditions.

The union already exists!!! It is my impression that most of Air Atlanta pilots have over the years been mislead to believe that FFF is the only pilot union in Iceland. FFF, the so called union that represent most, between 50-70, of the Icelandic and Scandinavian pilots within Air Atlanta, is not the only pilot union in Iceland. Air Atlanta dictates who and how many pilots are members of FFF at any given time....
The Icelandic Airline Pilots Association however,a member of IFALPA, ECA and NTF, is totaly indipendent and represents pilots from every airline and operator in Iceland including Icelandair and Islandsflug, even one pilot from Air Atlanta.
The upcoming merger between Islandsflug and Air Atlanta presents an ideal opportunity for Air Atlanta pilots to join the contract Islandsflug has with the Icelandic Airline Pilots Association and probably the best of all our little friend Jerry O´Sullivan has nothing to do or comes nowhere near that contract.
For more info www.fia.is and [email protected]

Wassup got the point !!!!

I am sure that if a majority of Atlanta drivers join that union, Jerry O wont even be around the table to negociate!

Our management is not airborne but AAI people !

OK, OK!

Thanks for the rhetoric, but does anyone have any info concerning the original thread?

Seems to me several of the recent F/O hires, SA and NZ specifically, should be considered! Good operators!

Has the October class been postponed or cancelled?

(edited for spelling)