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Just a thought...
I don't know if easyJet are recognised by Balpa yet - I guess so. Therefore you have a certain percentage of the masses who are Balpa members. However there will always be a percentage who are not members but who will be happy to receive all that the Balpa guys work hard to achieve - all at no cost to themselves. Just a thought... |
Hey if you work for the civil service or a bank in Aberdeen and your next posting for promotion is in London you've got to take it, or miss out on the promotion. True you'll get a relocation package but I don't expect many people would dream of commuting. You go where the job is.
In my previous company commands could be at any of the bases and you were expected to move accordingly. People did. I moved twice. Commuting isn't a long term strategy either judging by the number of people who are leaving easyJet to take jobs in their home country. If eJ had the best terms in the industry people still wouldn't remain in eJ and commute. They'd rather stay on home turf. If people have been given a hard sell, well true that would be unfair and I have sympathy for the Dutch who were taken on with the promise of a AMS base. They have been well and truly shafted. Disrespectful of my colleagues? I don't think so. I respect them for commuting but there are more important issues in these negotiations which affect us all . My commuting colleagues don't see themselves in eJ as a long term career principally because of the commuting. This is a short term option, albeit a painful one. One thing about getting your command at another base, well you've had a net increase of £1000 so why not use that to pay for your ticket? As you say Slim20 it's about lifestyle. 5 and 3 clear days off would make it a lot easier for us all. Fence sitters need to join before the negotaitions are finished. |
guys if you can't even display some solidarity on pprune , the management with be laughing their legs off! Your Company Council should be negotiating ALL the points raised including staff travel as it seems to be inferior to that given by any other airline of this size. I wish you luck..and you'll definitely need it. I've joined and subsequently left BALPA several times over the years. Each time I left because I saw them do next to nothing to benefit my lifestyle. I hope your CC can do a better job.
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If EZY rostering is leaving pilots as tired as some make out it will only be a matter of time before there is an accident, surely? Then the whole airline is gone.
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Part of the crazy rosters issue goes to the increasing probability of an accident. Sure enough. However, upstream from crashes and atrocities due to exhausted pilots, I think we all should think about the right to have normal private lives and health.
Why give up on our health and private lives when everybody's saving them in more "regular" industries ? I think these are issues important enough to be fought for. I can feel no sense of luxury in those requests. IT IS NORMAL AND REQUIRED. Or else, let's draw off 100 years of social improvements and get slowly back to abominable situations of deep physical exhaust that miners had to suffer. I can read you guys can have up to 7/2. What is next ? 8/2 or even 9/2 ??? Or Let's stick to 7/2 but early mornings only ? I know accountants only see that very bottom line which needs to be as positive as possible with a "pounds" after the figures. Why don't you tell them to charge maybe an extra 1 or 2 pounds on each ticket to cover possible extra cost (if any exists) or else aircraft are grounded because you too have a life. Ryanair get 4/3. Lufthansa get roughly a 4/3, as well as Air France. Why not EasyJet ? Even if you live 5 minutes from work, 6/3 or 7/2 becomes painful after a while. I'm on a much nicer pattern and I'm always happy by the time holidays're approaching. That's why I can't understand how EZ pilots can take that. |
Glad someone brought up the AMS base so I don't have to :-0 but then again I have accepted it through the years, complaining doesn't make ya much happier either does it!!
As the topic name and my new username suggests... Im going to (hopefully) greener pastures!! Good luck with the 'pay' review. The dragon |
No offense,
But just which pastures are greener than easy right now?? |
As someone suggested earlier, can any of the FR guys comment on the staff travel setup there?
Bailey |
The greener pasture is Dragonair!!
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sad world
First of all I'd like to reply to mr. Pointy Pilot, who said
If EZY rostering is leaving pilots as tired as some make out it will only be a matter of time before there is an accident, surely? Then the whole airline is gone. I vividly remember swissair and crossair's incidents and accidents, and look who is still flying : their "lovechild"* SWISS ! The public LOVES to forget accidents especially when it comes to ticketprices or reputation (which the swiss DEFINATELY do not deserve) Secondly, the sentence Glad to see that orange is really the same sort of murky brown that the rest of us live with. *please no flame wars on swiss! |
Anyone with residency status downunder are joining Pacific Blue in NZ...:mad:
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Based on most peoples opinions on this thread, there are quite clearly problems. Ultimately if an accident does happen and Easyjet have worked you up to the CAP371 limitations, the CAA are the people who are in the wrong. The current limitations are too old for low cost carriers! If rosters are harsh, saw a pretty mean one on the thread, send it to the CAA and request a response. If this continually happens, pressure will increase and the CAA will hopefully bring in even stricter FTL's than the new one's about to be introduced.
I have just written to my MP asking him how a lorry driver, driving a truck full of oranges is only allowed to drive for four hours and then, legally he must take a 40 min break. When an airline pilot moving about around 600 people per day (not oranges), operating for 10 to 12 hours per day with minimum rest between days, working for six days in a row does not have a legal break. I know at Ezy turnarounds are about 20 mins, is it possible to have break in 20 mins after setting up the a/c for the next sector refuelling and more importantly stocking up on duty free? I would like to know!! |
Tabasco
Sounds pretty horrible to me. What sort of duty hours did you do in the week?... As an outsider is "not enough crew" a possible concern, guess with crews going onto A319 a potential issue??. Do you think EZY should intro turn times like they have at BA where the crews have forced meal breaks built into the schedules? |
A typical "week" for me is 4,4,4,6,4,6 - though I have had 3 6's in a row. First 3 earlies, then 3 lates.
A couple of points, building on what has been said: Breaks: On our 6 sector days, you cannot eat and comply with SOP's. There simply isn't enough time to eat and do everything else in the cruise. So you either don't eat, or break SOP's. Most pilots decide which is least dangerous and take that route. You simply do not stop for 10 hours. Fatigue: The worst part is day 4. For days 1-3 you have been getting up at 0330 and going to bed at 1930. On day 4 you are working up to 2300... And normally both of us are on the same pattern, so the "yawn factor" is high for the last couple of sectors. Our FLIDRAS man has identified a trend of significantly more errors on day 4, but the conclusion was that this was the day that "tiredness had caught up with us, but we hadn't yet realised it". 6/3 or 5/3: Many bases work long 4 sector days (so should eat well!). They run out of hours on day 5, so don't work a day 6. So they are working 5/4 and so are likely to resist 5/3 change.... Staff travel: The few times I have tried to use it, I have had to pay full price. The loads have varied from 80 to 135 (I always ask, as it always annoys me!!) Lifestyle: I hate this word. To me, workers who want to "improve lifestyle" want a bigger car for working fewer hours. If only it was known as "safe working practices" or "work pattern", or even "fatigue management". People leaving: Why should eJ worry about people leaving - when they make such a huge profit on each TRSS new entry? How to make it better (IMO): 5/3, where all 5 are earlies or all 5 are lates. Staff travel standby option. Mandatory meal/rest break on days where all 6 sectors are less than 50 minutes. And not after the last sector! Just reporting what I do and see. eJ is very nearly a great company - good business model and good people. Shame they're all worn out! Stu |
love to know which bases are working 5/4!!!! Put me in for a transfer....!!!!!
How can that possibly work? I thought the EZY principle was early start day 1, late finish day 6? Seems a bit wasteful to have some bases only working a 5 day week. Besides, if that's how it works there, why the clucking bell can't we all have that? |
Banzai Eagle
To answer your question: Tues - Tues with one day off I did about 58 duty hours. But as previously stated the earlies (max 3 in a row) are relatively short 8 hour days; the real killer I find is day 4 when you come from 3 earlies finishing @ 1330ish to start mid-day for either a 6/4 sector (10 hour day) finishing @ 2300ish (if you are on time). This is why I think the way ahead for the company & the fliers (I include the cabin crew deliberately here) is to press as hard as we can for the week of constant earlies followed by the subsequent week of lates. There are other issues involved in what has been a successful business plan so far; including Staff Travel. But I honestly believe if BALPA & easyJet can sort the MAIN PROBLEM, which is the rostering ie 5 & 3, earlies then lates, the other issues might sort themselves out in a way beneficial to all parties in the long run. HERES HOPING BUT I COULD BE WRONG!! |
Banzi Eagle BA crew do not have meal breaks built into their turnarounds.
Typically, flying at EOG is done with the same regime as EJ except our turnarounds are 35mins and four day sectors are then norm, starts at 4:50 finishes at 00:20,when staying on the same aircraft, the extra time is allowed for the catering transfers, and contract cleaners to do their jobs......:yuk: When I see all the moans above they are exaclty the same as you hear in the crewrooms at BA, and I am slowly coming to the conclusion that there are no more "nice" jobs in aviation where beancounters drive everything and everybody to the lowest common denominator. Sadly the only thing that may stop this trend is an serious incident:sad: :sad: :sad: |
I agree with Da Dog.
Flying for a 'low cost' airline is hard work because they are trying to get the most out of their workforce to keep their ticket prices at rock bottom. Flying short haul for a 'high cost' airline is just as bad because they are now competing with the low cost airlines. Everything at BA Gatwick, is about competing with EasyJet. In my opinion, flying short haul is no longer a career. You can do it for about 5 years, maybe even 10, but then you have to go long haul. It's like being a stock broker; you do it for a short time, or the lifestyle will kill you. Why have things become like this? I guess it's because us pilots are not sticking togther enough and saying enough is enough. It does not help when your union reps come out with comments such as, "at least you have still got a job!" |
GS Alpha and Da Dog
I think you're both wrong there. Ryanair for example get significantly more flying hours from their crews than easyjet, but the threads on here about easyjet rostering far outnumberany other airline. Where easyjet are concerned its all about the appalling attitude to the front line staff displayed from the top, and that disgraceful culture has filtered a long way down. There can be nobody more cost conscious than O'Leary, but he knows that if you pay guys well and even more importantly give them decent work patterns it is good business. easy's problems are just beginning, their continuing contemptuous attitude to staff is coming home to roost! |
They would survive a first accident, the second would be hard. And it doesn't have to be the same airline. The press are already on to the working practices of the LCOs - as the recent Sunday Times article shows.
With the increase in LCO operations, it's a matter of time IMHO. |
I am cautiously optimistic that EZY upper management is listening to the main lifestyle issues that are being raised repeatedly on this thread and others.
Staff travel availability seems to get a bit better. This alone will prove a huge cost saving to the company. Why? As flight and cabin crew can commute again to their work without spending their half their salary their desire to stay with easyJet will be greatly influenced. Retention, retention, retention!!!! Ray, you will be a wise CEO if you keep your workers happy!:ok: The second issue, work rosters, should really not be difficult to solve. I have spoken to guys who are on 75% or 50% rosters and they consistently have had higher productivity in terms of hours flown vs days worked. This simply means that by giving people more time off to properly rest and have a life (...) beyond flying, the company will get the same or even more productivity out of the work force. Sickness levels will probably go down aswell as fatique is a main cause for the body to become ill. :ouch: Upper management, I hope you will not only look at cost alone when entering the pay and conditions negotiations but instead look at return on investment !! Retaining 40 more pilots and 100 more cabin crew this year due to keeping them happy with good staff travel and a good life style will save the company a huge sum of money!! Going to a 5 on, 3 off or even 5 on, 4 off will only have a positive effect on the bottom line and more importantly, safety!!! as well.:ok: |
It seems a shame that when easy swallowed Go they didnt adopt the £25 return, anywhere on the network standby ticket that Go staff had.
That was a staff travel system that covered the airport tax but was still cheap enough for staff to go on a day trip a few times a month.... oh well, times change! "Go, the happy airline turned sad by easyjet!" |
"glider insider"
best of both we were told. Go had a lot of good things to bring to EJ, sadly they were binned. At least you got to enjoy Go's Staff travel while you had it.. Get it back? Fat chance Swept wing, look over our history, things don't change quickly. Remember it was :mad: B A L P A who sold us this :mad: crap deal last year. |
Stan Woolley,
Well said. Indeed Easyjet's problems are just beginning and their contemptuous attitude and no desire to change is clear from the the recent post by the chief pilot, shattering all hopes of a 5/3 roster. We are firmly locked in the 6/3 pattern for the forseeable future. Every excuse to carry on this way is lame and life style issue will not be addressed and we continue to be run by computers. The reason given is that an immediate dispensation from CAA to adapt the 5/3 pattern to suit easy's style i.e work us to near death, is not possible at this time and even when eventually considered, will have to undergo a lenghty trial period. This to me is rubbish and the 5/3 pattern should not be about being able to work us to maximum duty limitswith min. rests for five consecutive days only to need the 3 days to recover (in hospital) It is a lifestyle and respect for the profession issue. It is the duty of every pilot to win back respectability for this profession and not be whimps as we have been so far. We await BALPA's take on this. Working at Easyjet has been a bed of mature roses with wild thorns. Don't hold your breath, Easy Management (who are they anyway ? ) I only need to know which of these numerous managers I send my definite resignation, the sweet thought of which is already sending me to climax. Very UNEASY |
Get real easyprison (and the many others like you in EZY!!)
What deal do you think we'd have got without Balpa???? The company was gunning for a pay CUT. That was after posting record profits in 2002. I gather from your expletive-laden post you have now left Balpa, (if you were even a member of course). Your attitude stinks. You can sit there doing f-all for our T&Cs (apart from whingeing), and then when the deal isn't to your liking you blame Balpa (and not EZY management). Well If your not supporting those who are working for your long-term welfare, just bend over and take it up the ass from the company without crying about it. This year the company wants free rostering. Those of us who remember it (7 on, 1 off, 3 on, 2 off, 1 on etc etc etc) or anyone with half a brain who knows what they do to us in Dec and Jan will know that the hard work going into the negotiations this year are FOR OUR BENEFIT (yes, all of us, including fence-sitting, whingeing ******s like you, mate) and it's the brothers who are paying for it. And it'll be us going on strike if it comes down to it - won't see you on the picket lines, will we? Cos the company will sack your ass the minute you try it. So you will have to keep propping up the corrupt orange empire and taking your 30 pieces of silver while we go unpaid trying to get YOU a better life. Sorry to single you out for this easyprison as there are still a hardcore of fencesitters in EZY, but if your not going to put your money where your mouth is to get us a better deal, leave Balpa out of it and keep your whining directed where it should be going - Mr Self-styled Hardass Webster. |
easyprison
What did you expect BALPA to achieve with the 50% membership it had during those negotiations last year. It just wasn't a strong enough mandate to secure the deal that we wanted. Yet it was still a lot better than the initial management offer. Just look at the deal secured by BALPA for Virgin. Absolutely fantastic. And why do you think that was? Huh? Virgin management feeling generous? No! It was brought about by strong BALPA representation. I heard over 90% membership. That is the only way to achieve anything in our situation. Be strong and credible. And it seems the message is now geting through - recuitment is doing well, but we still need more. Unless, of course, you know of another way to achieve decent rostering? Go on, tell us, we're dying to hear it - how can us lot stumping up our dues get a better deal any other way? |
SLIM20,
Your attitude stinks by your unchecked attack on easyprison. The man is entitled to his opinion and right to to persuade others to his leaning. You may be one with total confidence in BALPA but allow others to differ. Anyway if it came to the crunch, with all the mouth you have, we will find people like you on the picket line alright, but with a mask on. |
UNEASY,
It needed saying, I support him 100%. Fence sitters/Non-members will be to blame if it goes pear shaped, not BALPA members. |
Whoa there Uneasy!
For one, I did actually apologise in my post for attacking easyprison as he was the unfortunate focus of my invective. He is merely representative of the many people left in EZY who moan but remain inactive (preciesely the people you bemoan in your earlier post) The reason I came across strongly was that he seems to blame the intervention (or non-intervention) of Balpa for the current poor state of affairs. To do so is to miss the point entirely. It is hardly the trade union's fault that we are made to work like this. It was poor representation among the rank and file that led to a poor compromise being accepted; without a union we would not even have had a compromise. I am sorry that this kind of argument is precisely what EZY wants - a conflict between its staff on the issue of union representation, even while that union is working for all of us, members or not. So easyprison - I unreservedly apologise for the nature of my comments. I would much rather stand shoulder to shoulder with you, union or not, in our fight for proper treatment, and not antagonise you. Sorry! |
There is a real issue here. I am just about to start at easyJet and am not now a BALPA member (long story....). If I truly believed that BALPA could make a difference I would reluctantly rejoin and pay the very steep monthly payments required.
I do, however, have good reasons for believing that BALPA membership will never rise to the 70+% level required to be effective. The prime reason is that the ever-growing presence of large numbers of non-UK pilots working for easyJet guarantees that there will never be high membership. BALPA, as its name suggests, is there to represent the interests of British airline pilots. With so many non-UK pilots working for easyJet, how will BALPA ever be in a position to represent them? As easyJet's expansion into Europe rather than the UK continues, the preponderance of non-UK nationals can only increase. It is completely unrealistic to expect these guys and gals to join BALPA. It seems to me that BALPA will only get weaker at easyJet and not stronger as is clearly required. This is a genuine point and if someone can convince me otherwise I will look at rejoining. At this juncture, however, I truly believe the best interests of easyJet pilots would be served by a Pilots' Council which is truly representative of all pilots and not just the union members. I am looking for a balanced and rational reply here folks - not some deranged or abusive pro/anti union rambling. Many thanks. |
How to represent pilots in a company operating in multiple countries is a very real one and a growing one. Out of interest are all easy pilots on UK contracts? If you are say Germany based in Berlin paying German Tax etc does British or German employment laws apply.
To me the problem with pilots councils is that they tend to work without any backup. Balpa or any other union worth the name will have a system to provided professional support (research, negotiators etc). Without support you end up as a group of talented and well-intentioned amateurs facing a well resorsed and professional management team. |
DA DOG
Maybe i'm taling mainline LHR Crews not you poor EOG cousins? |
UK Contracts, UK employment rules ergo you must be in UK union to get FULL cover and support.
Emerg cover alway available via the IFALPA banner but not FULL cover. If I were working permanently overseas i wold join the local club. It all hinges around which country your contract is issued in. |
re-joined BALPA about a week ago.
Slim20, no worries. I don't sit on the fence so to speak, just seen it all before in ezy. This time we must get some sort of rostering deal in place. 5&3 and none of this start on earlies finish on lates business. No Flexi days. It's not much to ask really- is it? Will be with you all. :ok: |
Banzai eagle......... wrong again, Normal 4 sector days at LHR are for 35 mins turnarounds if on the airbus at outstations and 45 mins at LHR a little longer if changing aircraft.
BLR section 10;) Still I am reliably informed that the company will need some airbus rated pilots so come on in and enjoy the fun:yuk: |
Easyprison,
I take it you did read my thread. From the chief pilot's recent letter, he has ruled out 5/3 for the time being never mind earlies and lates. We are firmly stuck with 6/3 it seems, forever or until the obvious happens and then the regulatory bodies will suddenly realise they could have done something about it in the first place. Then a fall guy will be sort and better working conditions implemented overnight and everybody is happy again until another smart manager comes along in a few years and tightens the noose once again to justify his position .. e.t.c, e.t.c. We have been reduced in this profession to just numbers and all this computer nerds just plug us in willy nilly. We are so brainwashed that we even fear repercautions from accidents from flying and we therefore will do anything to ' cover our asses' ! and find this enough justification to join bodies such as BALPA e.t.c ( I am not implying that they are good for nothing, I am only addressing our inner fears), to have legal representation in case someone should be too quick to want to blame us. Now I ask , why should that worry anybody whether he is blamed or not, after all if you were driving a company vehicle and had an accident and you are in the wrong, you do not feel the world is coming to an end. WE ARE BRAINWASHED WHIMPS THAT HAVE ALLOWED RESPECT FOR OUR PROFESSION TO GRADUALLY ERODE. Stand together and save this profession!:{ :{ :confused: |
Why would going to a 5/3 roster not be possible?
EZY presently does not have permission from the CAA to work us 5 earlies followed by 5 lates. However, working 3 earlies/2 lates followed by 2 earlies/3 lates would certainly go a long way to reduce the fatique and improve the lifestyle. At least we would have 3 days off (sort off) every 8 days instead of every 9 days. Why is this not an option? :confused: |
Sorry .. I must be thick , have I missed something
A post above says that the (new) Chief Pilot states that authority from the CAA to work 5 on/3 off is not forthcoming.....sorry ,but do you need permission to work LESS than the current 6/3 (sometimes 7 on/2 off). One thing is certain , you all appear to be unhappy with your current situation and from the comments above ,you sound tired and FRUSTRATED. Unless you work together, you will get nowhere. I would recommend Balpa, even for only 6 months/ 1 year perhaps.You can then speak from a position of strength. If you only get ONE EXTRA DAY PER MONTH OFF ..it MUST be worth the £50/ month subs and who knows.. you might get something a lot better Perhaps I'm not so thick .... I left for a much better life style. |
VSI
IT IS POSSIBLE! It's just that they don't get their pound of flesh that way. What, let pilots be at home, on their gargantuan salaries? The very idea! Early starts, late finishes, 6 or 7 days a week. That makes the £10million Club sleep soundly in their beds at night. Let's hope they don't get the wake up call from Hell on the breakfast time news one day....... |
Is easyJet genuinly committed to improving the working conditions for the crews or is the refusal to go to a 5/3 roster merely a negotiating tactic? :mad:
To limit the amount of flex (rest) days to 12 per year is no real improvement, this was already the case when they started the 6/3 roster. To limit the amount of six-sector(!) days on a B737 to 2 consectutive days is quite a lame gesture. Any respectable airline with an eye on flight safety would ban this kind of 6 sectors a day slave labour. On sector six crews are just completely wasted. :ouch: Fortunately, jets nowadays are very reliable and rarely break down. I sincerely hope crews will never have a catastrophic failure on their sixth sector..... If easyJet wants to become a career airline, they should let their hard working crews have a life besides flying. :* :* A 5/3 roster would be a start in the right direction! Even if 5 earlies in a row is not possible, let us do 3 earlies/ 2 lates or 2 earlies/ 3 lates instead. This will not affect the produtivity compared to 5 earlies followed by 5 lates. :ugh: |
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