Senior F/O Qualifications
 

Hello all,

I need some help in gathering information about the requirements/qualifications for promotion from F/O to Senior F/O from as many airlines as possible. I would appreciate as much info as possible, in particular:

1. The actual requirements & procedure for promotion to SFO in your company.
2. Is ability assessed?
3. Do SFOs receive extra pay?
4. Do SFOs receive any other perks?

Information from all airlines would be very welcome, particularly UK carriers.

Many thanks in advance. :ok:

Promotion to SFO is usually when an ATPL becomes unfrozen

Therefore 1500 tt & 500 multi crew

Yes theres usually a slight pay increase.

I agree with Half_cuban

when the ATPL becomes 'unfrozen', so around 1500 hours.

KMH

p.s. check out the PPRuNe Jobs Network site for more info:

Professional Pilots Job Nework

Depends on the company. In Virgin, there are no fATPLs. An FO becomes SFO after 2 years' satisfactory service. I believe that in BA it's considerably longer. In both airlines, pay is incremented annually whether you are an FO or an SFO, and - at least in Virgin - the step from FO to SFO is no greater than any other increment. 'Perks' tend to be length-of-service related, rather than rank, though you can expect a captaincy to accrue more perks than FO/SFO.

Incidentally, PPJN is nothing to do with Pprune.

Tyrolean Airways

5 years after employment

A little more pay and higher yearly raise.

B de D
 

In BMI SFO's are promoted on completion of a formal command assessement (comprising interview, line assessement and sim check). X-wind limits same as Captain, no extra pay or perks but top of the list when commands become available.

Scud

Keep 'Em Coming!!
 

Thanks for the replies so far - the more the better!

Please can you keep them as "airline-specific" as possible though, as I'm trying to correlate all the info I receive. I still need reliable details from guys in BA, Monarch, Britannia, EasyJet, Ryanair, MyTravel etc.

Many thanks again.

Thomas Cook (UK):

SFO status granted with 1500 hours and an unfrozen ATPL. For that you get:

3 stripes
Promotion to SFO payscales (really just base salary for FO industry wide)
A new name badge

And you can still look up at all the one hundred and ffity odd SFO's ahead of you in command pecking order....

Base SFO pay somewhere in region of £40000.

Air 2000 don't have Senior FOs. You are either FO or Captain and these are the only two payscales.
Some Captains introduce some FOs as "Senior FO" which I find quite amusing being that we don't have that "rank".

However Airbus Girl, low hours (less than 1500 hrs) FO's do only wear TWO STRIPES.

Above 1500 and you wear THREE STRIPES. Hence, perhaps the distinction.

I`ve never heard such a load of BS before as this, regarding F/O, SF/O. You are either a Captain or a First Officer. Captains have 4 stripes , First Officers have 3. `Nuf said.

Tell that to a lot of airlines, including BA.

In BA promotion to SFO is after four years subject to having an unfrozen ATPL and showing up to an interview with a manager which is little more than an informal chat and a means to get you to visit the office at least once in your first four years in the company. You still get your annual incremental pay rise afer four years even if you don't meet the criteria, but promotion gets you a shiny third stripe and, mysteriously enough, an increase in your cabin entitlement should you be positioning on long haul.

When you commence your 5th year of employment. There's a payscale jump of aprox. 30% from FO.
License is not an issue, as the UK type "Frozen" ATPL does not exist. You get your ATPL when you get your command check as per JAR FCL 1.
;)

6000pic

I've been in bmi 5 1/2 years with 3500 hrs and still where two stripes because the company has higher SFO requirements and currently will not pay for a command asssessment. It purely relates to a particular airlines policy as to when your are an F/O or SFO. How can someone really be an SFO with only 1500 hrs your still wet behind the ears!!!. nuf said

fast cruiser

True about the 1500 hrs bit, however remember you could well have started flying the aircraft with 180 hours total time, been on it 4 years, done many take offs and landings due to short sectors.

Therefore, in certain operators (like mine) you could have far more handling experience with 1500 hours than a charter pilot with 3500 hours.

Nuf said!:p

6000pic,

I would agree that this is "BS" if it were as simple as Captains wear 4 stripes and F/Os wear 3 - I wish it were that straightforward!!

Unfortunately, the airline I work for does not seem to hold experienced F/Os who have been in the company for long time in particularly high regard and are not too interested in giving them the third stripe, which is why I am trying to collate as much info from other carriers to persuade them otherwise.

Keep the airline-specific stuff coming please.

Many thanks.

BdD

Bonnet,

this is my first airline so I don't know if this is normal at others but, just to make life simpler, we at Ryanair also have Second Officers.
Joining the company with less than 500 hrs on JAR25 A/C, you're initially a Second Officer, becoming a first officer after a full years service (minimum 500 hrs JAR25, which is no problem at Ryanair).
Two years after that you become Senior First Officer. Those two promotions give a 15% total salary raise each . Second Officers wear two stripes. FO's and SFO's three. No check or license requirements as far as I am aware. Then again, we probably don't have many Senior First Officers and I'll (possibly/probably) will never be one because you have a good chance of being a captain before you reach the SFO requirements.

As far as captains introducing first officers as "senior first officers' to the passengers, I reckon that sounds more comforting than telling them the first officer in question is on his first day on line with less hours than some of the passengers.

Hope this helps you a bit.
Good luck with persuading your company

Ziggy

BdD

<<Unfortunately, the airline I work for does not seem to hold experienced F/Os who have been in the company for long time in particularly high regard and are not too interested in giving them the third stripe>>

Sorry - don't understand what you are saying here?
1. Does your company ever "give them " 3 stripes? Or do co-pilots always have 2?
2. If it does, surely the requirements are laid down... Maybe you could post them here.
3. Are you really just after a "stripe"?? Or the money to go with it?

We had a situation in "Big Airways" where a number of DEPs felt they should have 3 stripes to "acknowledge their experience", without doing the normal 4 years. The company were rumoured to be going along with it - of course for no change in pay. Nothing has come of it, however, to date...

Maybe if you could detail exactly what you are trying to achieve, if might help posters here? If all you are after is the 3rd stripe and the word "Senior" in quicker time then I am frankly amazed...

NoD

NoD,

No it's not just the "prestige" of another stripe & title - it's about career structure.

As it stands, the requirements for promotion to Senior F/O in my company are:

i) 3000 hours or more
ii) An ATPL
iii) Successful completion of a command assessment course

I have the first 2. My issue is with the 3rd requirement - having looked at the replies I've received so far (thanks everyone), it seems that I work for the only company that relates the postion of Senior F/O to command.

I have no problem going through a command assessment - I would love to. However, the state of the company is such that the last thing they are concerned about at the moment is organising & paying for a whole bunch of (now eligible) F/Os to go through this assessment which I consider (and BALPA agree) to be totally unneccesary. In fact, the company doesn't generally bother putting guys through a command assessment unless there's a command vacancy i.e. you'll go straight from being a 2-stripe F/O to Captain which is why there are virtually no Senior F/Os in the company.

I have been with the company for nearly 7 years now, and still wear 2 stripes. There are dozens of very experienced, very able F/Os in the company who have been here for a long time, who still only have 2 stripes. A lot of us are on the long-haul fleet, of which one aircraft is on a damp-lease to SAA; in SAA, 2 stripes = "boy pilot" which means we often have these guys looking down their noses at us, assuming we have no idea what we're doing, despite the fact that a lot of us are more experienced than a lot of their Senior F/Os! In fact, we can technically be in command of the aircraft over deepest, darkest Africa (while the skipper's on his break), but considered to be "boy pilots"!!

Another reason for getting this sorted is to give Captains some of idea of the experience level of the guys they're flying with. They should know that flying with a Senior F/O means this guy has been around for a while, is experienced and knows what he's doing, wheras a regular "2-striper" might be fresh out of the tin with only 200 hours.

Also, in my company, Senior F/Os are able to board the a/c without a Captain present. I have, on several occasions, been unable to board the a/c when the Captain's not been there because of this restriction, which has subsequently delayed the flight.

Additionally, and more importantly, 2-stripe F/Os are not allowed to land the a/c in full crosswind limits - they are restricted to 2/3rds of the full limits. This has caused several problems in the past when a Captain, who has just converted onto type, is then faced with landing in full crosswind limits at somewhere unpleasant (e.g. BHD) while the F/O, who has been on type for years, has to sit there and watch. Surely, you'd want the more experienced guy to be landing in such circumstances?? I know I would.

It's things like these that are the problem - not just wanted to be called "Senior"!! Fortunately, BALPA are very much on my side and most of the management are also for change - just got to persuade the Chief Pilot & DFO!!

Thanks for everyone's help so far.

BdD

BdD

Thanks for a very good explanation... Reading it, I was going to ask which airline it was, but it became very apparent!

In "Big", the 3rd stripe is effectively tied to time on the company. An ATPL is required, but after 4 years, you should have one... Therefore the supporters of the "quick" 3rd stripe were only after the "status", which seems trivial to me... and I couldn't work out where you were coming from.

These elements sound barking:
<<Also, in my company, Senior F/Os are able to board the a/c without a Captain present. I have, on several occasions, been unable to board the a/c when the Captain's not been there because of this restriction, which has subsequently delayed the flight>>
<<I have been with the company for nearly 7 years now, and still wear 2 stripes>>
<<iii) Successful completion of a command assessment course>>

The general theme of the thread is that SFO is achieved when you would be eligible for << a command assessment course>>...

<<Additionally, and more importantly, 2-stripe F/Os are not allowed to land the a/c in full crosswind limits - they are restricted to 2/3rds of the full limits. This has caused several problems in the past when a Captain, who has just converted onto type, is then faced with landing in full crosswind limits at somewhere unpleasant (e.g. BHD) while the F/O, who has been on type for years, has to sit there and watch. Surely, you'd want the more experienced guy to be landing in such circumstances?? I know I would.>>
An interesting one... In "Big" you only stop being 2/3 limited once on the Command Course. Whilst I take your point about the "more experienced pilot" with a "new Captain", it makes it a difficult issue where a Captain is responsible for the aircraft??

Good luck with your endeavours!

NoD

When i was in MyTravel we had S/O (1 stripe), F/O (2 stripe) and SFO (3 stripe) The requirements for SFO were recently lowered to 3000hrs and 3 years in the company. This was because we had hardly any SFOs due to the fact that the hours and seniority required for SFO were higher than those required for a command! Limits are the same as F/O. Think they get an extra 2% upon reaching 4500hrs and 6years....if anyone stays that long.

NigelonDraft, that third strip may seem trivial us, but because BA recruits so many cadet pilots, having 2 stripes will tend to "represent" less experience as that is what new starter(usually a cadet) wears.

Why not just let those that joined from other airlines or organisations, with several thousand hours of experience wear a third stripe. The status of the extra stripe represents flying experience well inexcess to the cadet entry. That is what stripes really represent - experience. Doesn't matter where it comes from, as long as it is relevant!

As it is a trivial matter, then just let it be done and keep everyone happy!

But I fear the cadet entry 2 stripers won't like it...!

tailscrape, I've always had 3 stripes and had no where near 1500 hours when I joined the company.

FOs in Air 2000 have no limit on, for example, crosswind limits for FOs. It doesn't matter how much or little experience you have, in theory you could land in max x/wind. However, the Captain always has the final say.

Airbus girl, if you joined Air 2000 with less than than 1500 hours you should have had 2 stripes. Must have slipped through the net!:D

<<NigelonDraft, that third strip may seem trivial us, but because BA recruits so many cadet pilots, having 2 stripes will tend to "represent" less experience as that is what new starter(usually a cadet) wears.>>
I was more than happy to wear 2 stripes for 4 years... I really didn't give a monkey's... But it could be personal thing I suppose?

However, there are other things in BA that being a "Senior" Aircraft Officer (to quote!) gives you e.g. Staff Travel etc. Are you claiming superiority over the CEPs in this area? Or just getting everything confused?

<<The status of the extra stripe represents flying experience well inexcess to the cadet entry.>>
CEPs v Experienced DEPs are usually more easily identifable by their "youth" (or lack of it!)...

That said, I had heard from a Senior manager some year or so ago that the 3rd Stripe was coming in early, so something seemed to be happening... but hasn't?

NoD

Jones, do you know why you've been a First Officer for so long?

No Sir!

Because we don't have second Officers!

I had never heard of this 2 bar thing at all until I started reading this website. You're either a captain or an F/O. Of course where I live you likely won't even be getting a sniff of a airliner till you have at LEAST 3500-4000hrs and that is a bare minimum!! At the last place I flew the minimums for an F/O on a BE-10 was 1500hrs. Captains needed 3000hrs PIC to qualify. I guess with the lower minimums it makes sense to limit what the F/O's are able to do.